D&D3 XP vs. Shadowrun Karma

[MooCow]

Ok... some crazy dingbat (Say hi IC) talked me into GMing D&D3. It's not that I have anything against the game, just not alot of XP with it (I used to GM AD&D all the time). I certainly prefer this edition to the previous ones. My primary game is Shadowrun, and it what I've been GMing for the past 5 years or so.

One of the things that I game up with in SR to encourage Roleplaying, was awarding a bit of extra Karma now and then for players who kept journals and adventure write-ups. These had to be written from the characters POV.

Now I want to do the same thing for my D&D game, but I'm not sure how much XP to give them.

In your "learned" opinions, how many XP points equals 1 Karma point? And does twice that much equal 2 Karma points?

Thanks for your thoughts.

MooCow
The XP giving cow

[Lekkarion]

Well, for me (I D&D3 a lot, running my own game currently)

Anyways, I have done that in the past, usually if a character writes up a good journal or something I usually gave them a 10% exp bonus for the level.

So each level they gain, they get more exp.

level 1- 100pts (cuz it's 1000 to level 2)
level 2- 200pts (cuz it's 2000 to level 3)
level 3- 300pts...(you get the idea by now)
etc. etc. etc.

since as they level they should be killing harder creatures, figuring out tougher mazes/traps/puzzles so they are earning more exp. On PB3 style of play, I also award usually bonus exp for good posts. Not usually more than 25 points per post for bonus exp and about 100 points a week if they post to every DM post. Anyways, that's just my system.

[Crucible]

I'd have to agree with the above post. I wanted to add the following comment; D&D focuses more on Character growth than Shadowrun. Character growth is, normally, and particularly in the 3rd Ed., perhaps the primary objective of most characters.

In SR, what you're doing and your character development (as in personality, history, etc.) are more the focus.

Now, a good D&D campaign is going to try to shift the characters somewhat away from the concentration on gaining new powers and prestige classes as goals, but frankly that sort of thinking is built into the system.

In the 3rd ed because of the prestige classes and the new multi-classing rules and the ability advancement, etc., it's even more built into the rules.

Just a warning.

I've been working hard on weaning my party away from that to looking at the advancing plotline and the actions their characters are taking...

If you make XP the reward... will it encourage a focus on level advancement?

[Anaka]

I wouldn't offer XP in 3E, I'd offer cool stuff. Offer plot points, offer a chance at cool items, offer for them to be remembered in someone's will, develop low level psionic powers, find a really nifty dagger, marry the princess, etc. etc. etc.. XP in third edition is a far more nebulous concept than it used to be, with the advent of "after so many challenges of this CL, they'll be ready to advance." As such, I wouldn't make it the focus of rewards.

[Lekkarion]

kinda in line with the last post.

The one thing that I've always tried to place into my games are Epic Items ( it was one thing Earthdawn did pretty well with) Instead of just exp being the factor to granting you more power from an item. You instead had to take on a quest. Like learn the name of the creator of the weapon/item. Find the last person's grave to use it and make a blood oath. Go collect some rare object to unlock it's power. Make a deal with an elemental/demon/god/king to complete some quest in return for information.

Anyways, that's one thing I like to put into the game. Most items I create have at least 3 levels that have to be unlocked. If the character puts some effort into it, great rewards are possible, if they don't do anything, they got themselves a pretty paperweight.

[Cazmonster]

I would 'tip' the players. Those who worked hard, roleplayed well and wrote up entertaining journals would get a 5-10% bonus on thier experience points for the session. It gets them some extra experience, but probably not enough to let them advance in level more than one session earlier than other players.

The other principal difference is that XP cannot be used in the wonderful way karma is. A Shadowrunner can use/burn karma for successes, making him a more powerful actor. A D&D character does not have the same ability and can only be more effective in a situation through higher level, more expendable magic, or very good die rolling.

[Crucible]

You could start a pool of extra exp. for magic item creation/purchase. 3rd edition you burn xp to create magic items. If you want to keep the levels the same but give the characters a specific advantage, allow them to have xp worth of magic items without a gp cost.

[MooCow]

*** If you are in my campaign (IC, Daki, Gunwitch), please stop reading now ***

Wow.... these are some really neat ideas. Thanks!

I like the idea of having a seperate "pool" of XP that is gained from good roleplaying. I also like the idea of letting them spend these points on item creation, or to buy extra feats or special abilities. The idea having them have to quest to find information out about theirweapons to unlock higher levels of power is really good, as it fits in perfectly with an aspect of the campaign regarding magical weapons. I've played ED before, but hadn't thought of using that concept.

However, this begs the question of how much XP is a feat worth? Or an attribute boost? a skill point?

Thanks for all your thoughts!

MooCow
The GMing Cow

[Daki]

*Can't believe he actually listened to Moo and didn't keep reading*


Do I get extra XP for having to deal with Zim all the time?

[Crucible]

Did anyone else notice that Moo's last query sort-of asked us to write a new rules supplemental for him? How much experience is X worth. I'd have to think, looking through the various Xs, that many of them might be worth varied experience. In other words, we'd have to build a nice size list or chart to properly answer Moo.

Ah, I love it when a DM is able to get other people to do his work for him!

[Bethyaga]

(10 - 100 XP x Current Level) then round down to the nearest 50.

There's the basic formula, and it's pretty close to the unwritten rule of thumb I use myself for D&D (which is: "just make shit up").

From:

10 x Current Level -- for minor things, like in character stuff that was unexpected or made you laugh.

All the way up to:

100 x Current Level -- for good roleplaying that profoundly affects how you (as GM) view the current game.

In between can be all sorts of things, like moving soliloquies or actions that may be detrimental but maintain "the role".

--------------------

But even that much is too much for me sometimes. I much prefer a subjective system for character advancement, and then Fudge Points (Save-Your-Ass Points) and in-game rewards as bonuses along the way.

[Lekkarion]

well, since I'm about to create a new rule for "bonus exp pool"

Just off the top of my head, I was thinking.


Skills: 100/Skill points per level.

(since skills are pretty common, yet a rogue should have an easier time getting skills, than like a druid, just take 100 points, divided by how many skill points they get a level+their intelligence bonus, and round up.)

Feats: 1000 points per feat

I don't think feats should be easily obtained, and since this bonus pool would be much smaller than actual earned Exp, it should take some time to collect 1000 points

I probably wouldn't allow special abilities really to be added to your character, that's what Prestiage Classes or racial abilities are for.

For the amounts above, I would probably also make a -10% modifier for humans, since they are more versitile than other races and can learn quicker and easier (thus the extra skill point per level and extra feat starting off)

But off the top of my head, that's what I would probably do.

[Bethyaga]

And to add to my last post:

If you want to be able to spend XP separately from levels for skills/abilities/feats/etc, then I highly recommend you convert to a different game system. It'll be a lot easier than trying to muck with D&D's "balance".

[Cash]

Just off the top of my head, I was thinking.


Skills: 100/Skill points per level.

(since skills are pretty common, yet a rogue should have an easier time getting skills, than like a druid, just take 100 points, divided by how many skill points they get a level+their intelligence bonus, and round up.)

Feats: 1000 points per feat

I don't think feats should be easily obtained, and since this bonus pool would be much smaller than actual earned Exp, it should take some time to collect 1000 points

With this, you'll have characters leveling every adventure, easily. What does my group do? Ok, we proceed down the hallway. I'll hide, Move silently, Listen, Spot, and Search for secret doors. I can see the XP meter spin. Imagine that in roughly half the rooms encountered.... I'e even worse. I do that in *every* room.

[Szechuan]

He means you spend that much xp to raise/gain them I think, Cash.

[MooCow]

Yeah... I interpreted the way Szechuan is.... Plus, these are XP coming from RPing, which is entirely subjective and completely under my control.

MooCow
The controling cow

[Cash]

Ahhh...ok. I read that as getting XP for using the skills. *whew*

[Lekkarion]

yeah, I was just coming up for a rule for that "bonus exp pool completely seperate from your leveling total" that was made mentioned earlier. My own rules from level exp are.

(Since I'm a DM on a PB3)

1 week of posting to all my posts (which is usually 3-5) 100pts

bonus experience earned from your posts: 10-25points
(bonus exp is for well done posts, not 1 liners)

Monster kill exp (look at the challenge rating and give usually accordingly)

Trap/puzzle/maze exp (a number I usually assign for living through my puzzle/trap/mazes, which usually tend to be the same thing. )

Finding/questing for next level in your epic item and unlocking it's power (usually a pretty good bonus, can be up to 1000 points, though that sounds like a lot, when you need 9000 points to level, it's not so much lol)

Things that will get exp taken from you that week.

Not posting (from as little as -40 up to -100 if you don't post at all in the week, and don't send me an email as to why not)

Doing things out of character, using Player Knowledge as Character Knowledge (that includes players looking up creatures in the Monster Manuel and just saying, oh it's a **** I figure we ought to do.... espically when your character has never met/seen/heard of the thing before. That's a pet peeve of mine So usually my monsters/NPC's have none of the same stats you see in the book, and usually an extra ability or weakness that isn't covered. =p) Penality -10 to -25 per post

Loosing your epic item: usually loss of half of the experience it helped you gain. Think of it as your familiar getting killed.

[CykoSpin]

I can comfortably play any game with none to a bare minimum of house rules...except D&D. I've played damn near every edition of D&D, and in every campaign, I've had so many house rules, the system was barely recognizable as D&D anymore. I've always hated D&D's level system. The only advantages it has are that it's somewhat simple to manage and is a very easy way to sum up a character's power in a single number. Amongst the worst of the disadvantages is that it tends to encourage players to focus solely on character advancement and so god-like characters tend to get built up fairly quickly.

I've all but eliminated levels (I'm currently working on a "spend exp on stuff" system myself, much to the likes of SR and DL, but have yet to perfect it) and also a few of the feats and explicit character class stuff. With my alterations, the d20 System rules I currently use most closely resemble the system used for Fallout (except with d20's instead of % rolls for skills and such) with a touch of Alternity mixed in.