[SR] Rant: Shoe Endorsements

[DV8]

Yesterday I read the chapter "Life on the Run" in the Sprawl Survival Guide, one of the latest Shadowrun products, written by Elissa Carey, better known as our very own Pistons. While it's probably the best written chapter in the book, it's contents confirmed a fear I have held for a very long time now concerning the direction the Shadowrun developers were taking the game; Shadowrunners turned pop culture icons. I was so angry, and though I had vented about the becoming of this monstrosity before, I finally decided to put my thoughts on how this could never be down in writing thereby gladly defying canon material, something which I'm not quick to do but feel I have to.

.: The Problem
Since when is the concept of a shadowrunner one that is commonly known by the unwashed masses? Since when are there shadowrun simsense movies and television series? How come there are ex-shadowrunners out there that thrive on their reputation as a former shadowrunner and make a wonderful career in the simsense industry? Why is a concept that is unanimously agreed upon by all parties directly involved that it requires the utmost secrecy and discretion in order to be successful turned into an exploit of cheap entertainment?

Shadowrunners exist by virtue of secrecy! Say it with me now; without this secrecy they would be nothing!

.: Discretion and Deniability
Essentially, shadowrunners exist because there are corporations, organisation and individuals who have need for the services of the subversive elements in society to further their own goals. Usually it's the corporations who dip into this pool of resources because they can pay for these relatively expensive services. But oddly enough, corporations are probably one of the few organisations who could reach the same results without attracting independent, outside resources. Why is it that corporations will go through all the trouble of hiring professional outside resources?

Deniability. The first and last line of defense in an all out war to win, and keep, consumer confidence.

Discretion is a shadowrunner's most important tool. It's what he gets paid his money for. If it was just for the sabotage, kidnapping, wetwork or datasteals, the corps would simply hire some streetcreeps to do the job. But the extra money and attention goes towards making sure the actions of the shadowrunners cannot be traced back to their employer and so, at best, their victims have to blame what happens on a bunch of people who don't exist according to the system and seemed to have operated without a clear motivation. That way the employer doesn't have to engage in a campaign to save the corporate image, which could take months, during which time the stock and therefor the profitability of the company would take a huge hit.

.: Silence Is Golden
Mass manipulation through subtle corporate doctrine will be so sophisticated that even if shadowruns would see the light of day and be laid before public scrutiny it would be spun in such a way that recollection won't ever bring memories of a corp-sponsored covert operation. Just like UFO sightings will always be swamp gas, so will a shadowrun always be nothing more than an unfortunate explosion resulting from an imbalance in improperly stored chemicals, a glitch in the security system, or the head of a research department being sent on a much needed vacation only to die in a unfortunate kayaking accident. Shadowrunners are always deluded eco-terrorists, neo-anarchists looking to discredit or even overthrow a corporation, a confused vigilante or something that creates an equal amount of sympathy for the victim corporation.

Admitting to sabotage, theft, murder or kidnapping, by any of the parties involved, would have far too many negative repercussions. Should the truth come out about the instigator, stock and public opinion would plummet, credibility would be shot and possible charges from the Corporate Court or any number of governments could be the results. Admitting to be the victim of sabotage, theft, murder or kidnapping would result in a reduction of shareholder confidence, which in turn could, potentially, lead to a loss in stock value and company liquidity. Thus, it behooves both parties to keep as much of it out of the public eye.

.: Public Awareness
Within corporate enclaves especially, but also among corporate citizens, the thought of anything or anyone trying to undermine the corp is met with painful disbelief and misunderstanding. Years of indoctrine rebuts the very notion of corporations engaging in warfare outside of the Desert Wars; "the corporation takes care of everyone." Nobody doubts it and those that do are quickly silenced and rehabilitated. Even if a corporate peon would suspect something, many of them would gladly forget what the saw or heard in order to go back to believing in a lie. People need stability and are willing to repress a lot to maintain it.

Outside of the corporate enclaves, and on the streets, people are far more skeptical, far less willing to believe in the good and the charity of corporations. But it's that same skepticism that has turned most people into jaded drones. The majority of this group is relatively poor compared to their corporate counterparts and have given up their idealisms for a survivalist mentality. They don't care what happens to corporations, or how they do business. They accept what they get fed through a trid-set and what they read in screamsheets and newsfaxes.

From corporate sponsored schools, and the corporate owned news sources, and the corporate lobbies in governments all over the world, and the meticulously thought out advertisements finally rises an image that's incredibly hard to shatter or undermine.

.: "But What About..."
"...spies and assassins and thieves and Mafiosi and all the films about hackers and other subversive elements in society!? If we know about them, and see them in the news, then why not Shadowrunners!?"

Well, because corporations won't allow a concept like that to thrive, because it would undermine the discretion and deniability that they so value. All the other subversive elements of society that you can think of, none are so rare and important as shadowrunners and anything would be done to allow them to do what they do. And in 2060 there will be the opportunity to do so by media manipulation. Films wouldn't be funded, books wouldn't be published, and television programs would be taken off the air.

The Mafia has never been a secret society, and the Free-Masons, well, though they are supposed to be, they're hardly a secret, now are they? Spies, assassins, thieves? These are all concepts that are as old as humanity but a relatively new concept as that of a shadowrunner can still be protected and maintained as a secret by regulating media, spin-doctoring the results of their exploits and demanding the utmost secrecy from the shadow-community itself.

A shadowrunner in the media...seriously...his body would be cold before the ink on the paper of his simcontract would be dry.

From Why Shadowrunners Will Never Receive Shoe Endorsements

[Serious Paul]

.: The Problem
Since when is the concept of a shadowrunner one that is commonly known by the unwashed masses?

To add to this further, when are they known as Shadowrunners? A guy who kills people is a murderer, a guy who does it for money is a hit man. A guy who does it for the corp is a dead man, and they tell no tales.

Shadowrunners exist by virtue of secrecy! Say it with me now; without this secrecy they would be nothing!

Or they wouldn't be for very long. This goes up to how you approach your game-realism. Is it a Marvel comics brawl, with a bit of mystery added in, or is a dystopian nightmare world were MENSA is a bunch of second stringers?

The diificulty in writing source material has to be in making sure you can appeal to every one at the basic level-the lowest common denominator. I wonder have we diluted this number on purpose? I understand the game is written by people who would also like to make money, but I have always been of the opinion that quality work will transcend traditional trends in gaming.

All in all DV8 reflects my own view of the game very well-I applaud you Dennis, this has to be one of the best pieces about the game I have ever seen.

[MooCow]

Since when is the concept of a shadowrunner one that is commonly known by the unwashed masses? Since when are there shadowrun simsense movies and television series?

Have you ever actually read any of the game products? This idea has been around at least as long as I've been playing, which is a little over 11 years now.

Shadowrunners exist by virtue of secrecy! Say it with me now; without this secrecy they would be nothing!

That's like saying Intelligence agents exist by secrecy (Which they do). You know as well as I do that both our governments have Intel guys and gals. We know they run covert ops into other countries. We know they occassionally kill people in the course of their work.

Does the fact that we know they exist prevent them from existing? Of course not. Does the fact that we have movies and television shows about them prevent them from doing their jobs? Of course not. Are those shows gross exagerations of the truth, as well as bald faced lies? Of course they are!

[DV8]

Have you ever actually read any of the game products? This idea has been around at least as long as I've been playing, which is a little over 11 years now.

A hearty "fuck you" to you, Moo. The idea didn't start out quite as pervasive and as prominent as it is now.

That's like saying Intelligence agents exist by secrecy (Which they do). You know as well as I do that both our governments have Intel guys and gals. We know they run covert ops into other countries. We know they occassionally kill people in the course of their work.

The government now - or rather, the governments way back when spies were first employed and utilised didn't have the same level of sophistication in media control as they do in 2060. You can bet your ass that secret service would be secret if the secret could be kept.

[MooCow]

A hearty "fuck you" to you, Moo.

Sorry!

The idea didn't start out quite as pervasive and as prominent as it is now.

Sure it did. I remember reading about some television show that specifically followed the exploits of one shadowrunner.

And you mentioned endorsments by /ex-shadowrunners/. I don't see anything weird about that. They're /ex-shadowrunners/. They no longer run, so what's the big deal about them going and telling stories and selling shoes?

You can bet your ass that secret service would be secret if the secret could be kept.

What they do is secret. That they exist isn't. To my knowledge, the article didn't say that there were reality tv shows that follow runners during a run. It indicated that the general populace knows they exist, that there are television shows about them, and that guys that used to be shadowrunners play off that to sell shoes.

Big fucking deal! Five years ago we had a guy who used to be special forces play off that to get elected governor of Minnesota. I guarantee that all of his exploits while serving in the SF are extremely classified and that the general populace has no idea what he actually did.

But the fact that we know the special forces exist allows him to play off what we /think/ we know about what they do. Sounds like the same deal with the shoes.

[DV8]

A hearty "fuck you" to you, Moo.

Sorry!

No problem.

Sure it did. I remember reading about some television show that specifically followed the exploits of one shadowrunner.

Karl Kombatmage? Ugh! I spit on the very concept. In the chapter I described in my rant there's even sitcom called "Who's Swag Is It Anyway" about a family of shadowrunners. Puhlease!

And you mentioned endorsments by /ex-shadowrunners/. I don't see anything weird about that. They're /ex-shadowrunners/. They no longer run, so what's the big deal about them going and telling stories and selling shoes?

Well, if they would keep their runner past a secret locked up so tight nobody would suspect a thing, it wouldn't be a problem. But if they are exposed as shadowrunners, thirteen seconds later somebody will be all over him or her, and another 15 seconds later he or she's been mind-probed to hell and back. They know what that person did, when it happened, who it happened to and what the circumstances of the recruitment were. That information is very valuable to the ones that got hit because it gives them lead on who was behind it.

In short, someone coming out of the shadows means that whoever's out there is one step closer to former employers, and that can't happen.

You can bet your ass that secret service would be secret if the secret could be kept.

What they do is secret. That they exist isn't.

But if their existence is kept a secret what they do is even less accessible. The use of them wouldn't have any repercussions either.

To my knowledge, the article didn't say that there were reality tv shows that follow runners during a run. It indicated that the general populace knows they exist, that there are television shows about them

Yes, something I fundamentally disagree with because I don't think the powers that be would be so eager to reveal one of their most effective and secret weapons to the world at large. What they want is a maintenance of good, wholesome corporate image because that's good for business.

Big fucking deal! Five years ago we had a guy who used to be special forces play off that to get elected governor of Minnesota. I guarantee that all of his exploits while serving in the SF are extremely classified and that the general populace has no idea what he actually did.

You're looking at this ass backwards. You're looking at this as things are now, not how things will be then, with a new concept, yet unbeknownst to the general populace making its appearance. Jesse Ventura would never become a WWF or movie star and definitely not a governor if he had been a shadowrunner. The concept itself would be protected as much as possible. Leaks would be seen as indiscretions and would start to cripple the effectivness of shadowrunners.

But the fact that we know the special forces exist allows him to play off what we /think/ we know about what they do. Sounds like the same deal with the shoes.

That's because you think that because we know about special forces, we'll know about Shadowrunners. I'm saying that it would never come to that given the sophistication of media control and spindoctoring.

[DV8]

I guess my entire rant is based on the assumptions that corporations with the power like the have in Shadowrun would do anything to increase their hold over society and the opinion society carries for them, to the point where they'd keep a newly created concept like that of a shadowrunner a secret to maintain its effectiveness.

[Anguirel]

I always saw the shows and movies as damage control. Shadowrunners existed well before the 2050's. However, a few of them did big things, accidentally or not, and ended up as heroes, of a sort. "Oops, we just saved the world." Once the secret is out, pirate trid stations carry the news and it spreads, a little. Eventually it gets beyond what the Corps can hide -- so they turn around and sell it. They make it flashy, glitzy, and they completely trounce all over how runs actually occur.

Shadowrunners are hitmen. They are paid assassins and saboteurs and kidnappers. They don't care who hires them -- it can be anybody with the cred, not just a corp. They also get hired as security -- why? Because sometimes you want security that literally doesn't give a frag about the law. If you hire Knight Errant or Lone Star, they'll do a good job, but they'll follow a procedure, escalate the conflict in a set pattern. They won't act like a pure mercenary force will.

Which is the essence of what Shadowrunners are. Mercenaries. Guns for hire. So Karl Kombatmage goes on these shadowruns... but he's doing it for some poor weepy widow who wants revenge on the Azzies for killing her husband and taking her kids to be used in Blood Sacrifices (once that came out). He's not doing it for some corporate Johnson. Or, if he is, it's some third-tier corp. The Big Names don't need them, but the small ones sometimes resort to nefarious means to try to get ahead. Thus, the Megacorps protect their image (which has already been blown by a few 'runs gone wrong) and get something new to sell.

So why not give a 'runner turned hero a shoe contract, with an implicit agreement that they never ran for any Mega. Except, maybe, those Azzies, because everyone knows the Azzies are evil.

[Adam]

Not to mention that since for the large part, the megas control the media, they can feed the public all sorts of lies and doctored information.

[DV8]

Proving what?

[Instant Cash]

Actually moo is correct, even though a bit abrasive.

The idea that shadowrunners have been in the media has been around for a long time. My theory on it is that yes, Shadowrunners operate in secrecy. The good ones are never known about, but what about the not-so-good ones? What about the ones who get caught? The ones who decide that they no longer want to live life in the shadows?

Just like modern day where we have movies about covert ops, drug cartels, and many other seedy things. You cannot keep things a secret forever. At least not when there are so many people involved. Hell even the corporations blame attacks on their facilities on Shadowrunners. When they do that people ask, "Well what are Shadowrunners?" then the media comes to answer, which is why we have sim shows about it. They are completely wrong, just like the movies about cops who all look like body builders.

Anyway, that is my input on it. I loved the whole section, very well done.

[DV8]

The good ones are never known about, but what about the not-so-good ones? What about the ones who get caught? The ones who decide that they no longer want to live life in the shadows?

You don't ever hear about them. Yes, yes, I know, canon material says differently, but canon material - I think - doesn't make too much sense. You won't ever hear about shadowrunners getting caught because their story will never make the light of day. All parties involved want the attack, or theft, or murder to be covered up as soon as possible so that business can go on as usual. Media coverage, or lengthy investigations are just too big of a production killer and can tie up too many resources.

You cannot keep things a secret forever.

Like Adam said; corps control the media. Control the flow of information and you can, effectively, keep anything a secret. Why do you think datahavens are such a problem? Because corps lack control over them.

At least not when there are so many people involved.

Which is why I think shadowrunners are an elite few. Those who are in the know are an elite few. The shadowrunning world isn't so big because people either die for what they know or keep their mouth shut.

I loved the whole section, very well done.

Thanks, Ice.

[Instant Cash]

Hrm, very good points and I will have to think on it more.

On one hand you have companies who want to squish the idea of shadowrunners because they use them. But what about the ones who want to expose them so that they can make it harder for shadowrunners to succed? Just like the terrorist concept that the U.S. has taken a stance on, the more people are aware and know what the potential hazard is, the more that people will be able to identify them so they can be caught.

Just a thought.

[Kai]

Its all spin control, Shadowrunners can exsist for every wage slave because they are the dogs of the competition, thier corp is honest, good, and would never do that sort of thing, its what the other megas resort to them to steal research that rightfully belong to other people, or what they use to terrorize poor innocent scientists who are of course loyal workers and would never dream of leaving.

Its a scapegoat and a threat, what better way to insure corporate loyalty and security than remind employees that their work is very important to the company, and they should be careful as some nasty shadowrunners might try to kidnap them or that guy you talk to at the bar might be one in disguise so you shouldn't talk about work. If a project goes bad and the corp kills off a few employees, oh it was sabatoge by someone else.

Shoe endorsement, etc, its like gangs, if Nike could find someone who thought they were safe enough from their ex-buddies to say I'm a member of this gang and I use Nike's, they'd go for it, because all the wannabes and the angst teens who want to rebel would be buying them in droves because its what an honest to god gangster wears.

[Serious Paul]

Have you ever actually read any of the game products? This idea has been around at least as long as I've been playing, which is a little over 11 years now.

You are technically correct-since the days of Shadowbeat there have been references to Shadowrunners in the media, and by what I have seen other books as well make reference to it.

What we have is a conflict though of what the books say, and what the books say. As a player there is a confusing message to sort through here-What is the spirit of the game?

I go with DV8 on this, the spirit of the game makes Shadowbeat a fun read, but in my own game the information is very revised when I present it, and Shadowrunners really are that definition given way back in SR1-people who have fallen through the cracks one way or the other.

They don't exsist, and in that nonexsistence is their value. No there are a number of ways to get there, and not all of them are being born in the slums of Seattle, and learning magic from the local down on his luck Archmage who dies later.


So in this sense we are both correct. Moo is right the game does outline this stuff IC, DV8 and I are correct, in my opinion, that the spirit of the game, the feel of it is better with out this.

That's like saying Intelligence agents exist by secrecy (Which they do). You know as well as I do that both our governments have Intel guys and gals. We know they run covert ops into other countries. We know they occassionally kill people in the course of their work.

But why call them shadowrunners? Why not murderer, or hitman? Why use Shadowrunner? Sure people see stuff on the news, but why would the corporate media paint them as heroes, or even antiheroes you love to hate? Where is the benefit?

Sure society as a whole knows there is something there, but can they identify it? I say no. I have never used the word "Shadowrunner" or "Shadowrun" in my game. Ever.

Now maybe thats too anal for your game, which is cool, cause after all we all play to have fun. So I say do what feels right for you and your group.

You're looking at this as things are now, not how things will be then, with a new concept, yet unbeknownst to the general populace making its appearance.

To take this a different direction, Jesse Ventura would have a SIN. That means he existed somewhere, and all the baggage that goes with it. Imagine if he as a former govenor, and famous wrestler tried to go SINless and commit crimes for hire.

So yeah a spec ops boy or two could hit the streets, but the military makes quite the investment in those boys, and their working for loyalty and patriotism, why would they shadowrun? Not to mention the further up the food chain they get the more likely the government is to have safeguards to prevent them from leaving-just corporate CEO's.

Karl Kombatmage? Ugh! I spit on the very concept. In the chapter I described in my rant there's even sitcom called "Who's Swag Is It Anyway" about a family of shadowrunners. Puhlease!

The marvel comicing of Shadowrun. The third edition has always had a very comic book feel to me-the art is more "comic" like than it has been in a while (Which isn't to say its bad, just the way it looks.), the writing is much more disjointed (Again not saying all of it is bad, I have a few pet peeves just like anyone else, but overall the feel is that some writers don't have regular communication witht heir peers, and the game suffers to me.) and the thing I hate most is the resolution of major events lately. That definitely has a comic feel-Bug City is just over, the Arcology is just over-what could have been a much more intresting event is "dumbed" down, and resolved in what seems a contrived way to me.

Once the secret is out, pirate trid stations carry the news and it spreads, a little. Eventually it gets beyond what the Corps can hide -- so they turn around and sell it. They make it flashy, glitzy, and they completely trounce all over how runs actually occur.

I actually like this a lot. I could see this much more than I could just Reality TV.

Shadowrunners are hitmen. They are paid assassins and saboteurs and kidnappers. They don't care who hires them -- it can be anybody with the cred, not just a corp. They also get hired as security -- why? Because sometimes you want security that literally doesn't give a frag about the law. If you hire Knight Errant or Lone Star, they'll do a good job, but they'll follow a procedure, escalate the conflict in a set pattern. They won't act like a pure mercenary force will.

All of that is true, and untrue at the same time. Some Shadowrunenrs have morailty, and ethics. Some do care who hires them. Some want more than cred-but you are right a bit more than a few fit that catergory.

Yes Karl Kombatmage is a hero, but is he a shadowrunner? I guess that depends on how you run your game.

On one hand you have companies who want to squish the idea of shadowrunners because they use them. But what about the ones who want to expose them so that they can make it harder for shadowrunners to succed?

Intresting way to think about it. A corporation hires some runners, its opponent finds out, and uses these runners as a media tool to expose corp A's nefarious goings on. By keeping said runners alive, to get to trial they win a PR coup.

A possibilty for sure, but I am not sure in what circumstances it would work best. thsi wouldn't be a common tactic in my mind.

[MooCow]

Allright, now that I'm home, I'll toss in my two cents. This is gonna be kinda rambling, but here goes.

On The Media
You claim that Corporations control The Media 100%. I disagree. Individual Corporations may control individual media outlets, but no one Corp controls the Media. As we know, the corporations do not exactly get along with each other. This makes them incapable of totally controlling The Media as a whole.

If the Corporations controlled The Media to the extent you seem to think they do, then there would be no need for Shadowrunners. Runners exist for the purpose of plausible deniability. Deniability to who? Other Corp? They wouldn't believe it. The Corporate Court? They don't care about 99.99% of the runs that happen. The national governments? Aren't powerful enough to really do anything.

So who do they want to keep things a secret from? The Public. If they controlled The Media 100%, this wouldn't be a concern. They could use their own assets, not hire a bunch of outsiders.

It's idiotic when you think about it to hire outside people. Your own people are just as expendable as shadowrunners,as it's a pretty simple thing to keep your people off the books. Your own people would be far more loyal, and you'd have a better idea of just what they were capable of. You could better organize the participants in a run to ensure maximum success.

The only reason you'd hire outside runners would be if you needed deniability to the public. The only reason you'd need that is if you didn't control The Media.

On Revenge

You noted that if a Shadowrunner came into the light he'd be killed. By who? Other Runners? Just as likely to happen in the shadows. By the Corp? Nope. Why would they do it? There is no profit in revenge. It wouldn't get their stuff back, so why do it? It'd be pretty stupid to think that killing a runner would intimidate other runners into not hitting you.

[Kai]

...the thing I hate most is the resolution of major events lately. That definitely has a comic feel-Bug City is just over, the Arcology is just over-what could have been a much more intresting event is "dumbed" down, and resolved in what seems a contrived way to me.

Well speaking for someone who hated the idea that you had to buy all the adventure suppliments to have any idea what was going on in the canon world because metaplot never resolved, I like the more episodic in nature content where there isn't 4 books out there you have to have to know what's really going on if you want to stay true to canon.

[DV8]

Why would they do it? There is no profit in revenge. It wouldn't get their stuff back, so why do it?

Because if word gets out that they were hit, or are hitting others it would be bad for their image and public opinion would drop, together with shareholder confidence, and thus stock, bla bla bla bla. All the things I already said.

[MooCow]

Because if word gets out that they were hit, or are hitting others it would be bad for their image and public opinion would drop, together with shareholder confidence, and thus stock, bla bla bla bla. All the things I already said.

Illogical. Killing him shows that the corp has something to hide. If they kill him, then the media packet he arranged prior to his death goes out to the media outlets. Said corp /can't/ control all the media outlets, as I've already stated. Alive he /might/ talk about what he's done. Dead it's guaranteed he will.

They are far better off building up the "myth" of shadowrunners as evil people who prey on the poor corporations, then trying to hide the existence from the public. The best lies are the ones that contain a portion of the truth.

[Serious Paul]

I can understand your feelings Wildfire, although i must admit I feel no urge to follow Canon-I use it where it suits my needs, which for a number of things is often enough where I am not that far from the reality of the game world. But I do heavily ignore it in other spots-Bug City is far from over in any of my games.

While I am not totally against these adventures/scenarios being wrapped, the way in which they were wrapped up felt hurried and contrived to me.

[MooCow]

The difference in our world views is obvious I think. In your SR universe the Corporations are all powerful. In mine, they are the most powerful mortal power around, but that does not make them all powerful. I leave being all powerful to the gods.

[DV8]

Killing him shows that the corp has something to hide. If they kill him, then the media packet he arranged prior to his death goes out to the media outlets. Said corp /can't/ control all the media outlets, as I've already stated. Alive he /might/ talk about what he's done. Dead it's guaranteed he will.

That all depends, of course.

[Instant Cash]

Just another thought to throw in the mix.

What about the public who witnesses a SR in progress? Wouldn't they ask "who are these people?" and wouldn't people give a name to them that is most commonly known?

Take for instance the run we did in Pauls game, there were Helicopters, Panzers, buildings blowing up, etc. etc. Now I know this is not a normal run (in fact it got way fubared hence the buildings getting holes) but they /do/ happen. You can only supress the truth for so long before /someone/ gets a clue and reports it out.

So, just some more stuff to stew on. Do not get me wrong, I see your side of things Deev and Paul, however I just do see /everyone/ as being as good at things as we try to make our characters. In fact I have even played in campaigns where this was the way things operated.

Criminals get caught, not all, but enough. And Shadowrunners are after all, criminals. Just cause they are the lesser of two evils in a dark world, they are still criminals. Now the /good/ Shadowrunners I have no doubt you will know nothing about or even hear of them.

[DV8]

What about the public who witnesses a SR in progress? Wouldn't they ask "who are these people?" and wouldn't people give a name to them that is most commonly known?

Whatever the news tells them they were. Eco-terrorists, Alamos 20k, whatever.

[MooCow]

Now the /good/ Shadowrunners I have no doubt you will know nothing about or even hear of them.

And that's my point really. I agree that the general populace doesn't know any shadowrunners. They've never heard of Twist, Dodger, Stryper, Argent, etc. They don't really know what a shadowrunner is, other then the stereotypical idea they get from the news media. However, they do know they exist.

Deev's arguing that no one knows runners exist, and I just can't buy that. I just can't buy that the corp have that much power that they can cover it up completely.

[DV8]

It's a matter of taste, Moo. Like you said a couple of posts up, your game differs from mine. I like the cyberpunk element of corporate domination and subservient unwashed masses. If I didn't introduce the classical elements of cyberpunk into my game, it'd just turn into another covert-ops game of which there are way too many. Just look at DSF for enough examples of those.

[MooCow]

I like the cyberpunk element of corporate domination and subservient unwashed masses.

I agree completely. And I like that a bit, just not to the extreme that you suggest. Corporate godhood makes no sense to me, any more then national state godhood makes sense to me.

[Serious Paul]

For anyone intrested, I sort of kicked this idea around again.

[Bishop]

Whatever the news tells them they were. Eco-terrorists, Alamos 20k, whatever.

And news never has conflicting reports? You're never watching the news, hear something, change the channel, and hear something different? Simply because a news station controlled by the mega corps says something doesn't mean it's going to be believed by the general populace...I mean, what about all the independents, the other mega corp controlled stations, the minor stations?

[Anguirel]

Since it came up again...

Why would they do it? There is no profit in revenge. It wouldn't get their stuff back, so why do it?

Because if word gets out that they were hit, or are hitting others it would be bad for their image and public opinion would drop, together with shareholder confidence, and thus stock, bla bla bla bla. All the things I already said.

What about a third party? The Azzies hire a Shadowrun team to hit Renraku, the run fails and Knight Errant apprehends the 'Runners as they try to escape Red Samurai pursuit by ducking through an Ares neighborhood. Ares reports on it, hurting both of their rivals and making Knight Errant look good. Oops, now the secret of corps hiring thugs is out.

And, of course, there's the pirate agencies as I mentioned, who don't give a frag about the corps in any case.

Whether you call them Shadowrunners or just saboteurs, thieves, or whatever isn't relevant, really. The concept of anti-heroes exists now, and will certainly persist in future. Some people exist outside the law and will do just about anything. The corp drones will think such people are detestable, the people in the shadows probably know a few and don't matter anyways.

Who is going to stop the Megas? The entire point of 'Runners and the Corporate Court has nothing to do with hiding their activities, it's to prevent Corporate War. It's a polite fiction they knowingly perpetuate to allow them to continue to do the same things but not kill all their consumers. They set up the game such that the entire point is to evade blame. If you get caught in the act, slap on the wrist and back to business as usual. If you really screw up, the rest of the corps get to jump on you in public.

There's literally no one you can tell about Shadowrunners that matters. Everyone in power knows already and doesn't care. So as I said... why not sell it instead? Just another marketable item, and by doing that marketing, you trivialize the impact and can more easily spin any reports that leak beyond your corporate filters.

[Toryu]

.: "But What About..."
"...spies and assassins and thieves and Mafiosi and all the films about hackers and other subversive elements in society!? If we know about them, and see them in the news, then why not Shadowrunners!?"

Well, because corporations won't allow a concept like that to thrive, because it would undermine the discretion and deniability that they so value. All the other subversive elements of society that you can think of, none are so rare and important as shadowrunners and anything would be done to allow them to do what they do. And in 2060 there will be the opportunity to do so by media manipulation. Films wouldn't be funded, books wouldn't be published, and television programs would be taken off the air.

The Mafia has never been a secret society, and the Free-Masons, well, though they are supposed to be, they're hardly a secret, now are they? Spies, assassins, thieves? These are all concepts that are as old as humanity but a relatively new concept as that of a shadowrunner can still be protected and maintained as a secret by regulating media, spin-doctoring the results of their exploits and demanding the utmost secrecy from the shadow-community itself.

A shadowrunner in the media...seriously...his body would be cold before the ink on the paper of his simcontract would be dry.

Well, Dennis, let's pick another example. How about secret services such as the CIA?

[Serious Paul]

A fair question, to which I would say "How many people do you know off hand that claim to be active duty CIA agents?" Let alone CIA agents. Not many, I would think.

[DV8]

Well, Dennis, let's pick another example. How about secret services such as the CIA?

What about them?

[Toryu]

Secret Services perform many of the same Black Ops as Shadowrunners, or the corporations that hire them. Espionage, assassinations, extractions, propaganda, you name it.

There's a ton of movies and tv series about various intelligence agencies and their nefarious plots. Yet they still are alive and kicking.

People know very well that governments send their agents on espionage and black ops missions, but what they don't know are the gory details or any particulars. In other words, their existence is no secret, but their actual operations are.

What is more, even when some real news about their doings breaks, nobody really seems to care. Not the public, and often not the parties involved. Case in point: The recent UN phone tapping "scandal". Was there public outrage? No. It didn't even make a topic here on Bulldrek, which I think tells a lot. Were any of the people responsible fired or held accountable in any way? Not that I know of. Even Kofi Annan just shrugged it off.

Governments and corps aren't all the different in this respect. They both use internal and external assets to do their dirty work. The players may have changed, but the principle remains the same. I personally see no problem with the media exposure Shadowrunners and the Shadows get.

[Serious Paul]

I think the difference is that the governments in Shadowrun are not perceived in the same light as the corporations are. Most corporations are seena s offering a service, and despite the fact that the governments offer services as well, people perceive them in a much different light-at least at the lower class and middle class levels.

So yes people expect Uncle Sam to have hitmen, after all they've had 'em since my grandpappy was a cur, but McDonalds? C'mon chummer their a fraggin' corp, not the government!

Does that make sense? I know I switch narrative voices almost instantly, so let me know if I am not making sense.

[Cash]

Tue, but Mickey D's doesn't have the Shiawise Decision that lets them have "security" (until 1999 in game time).

[Serious Paul]

True, but even wit it would they sell that or their traditional image?

[Cash]

Oops. It was apparently Seretech...

[Serious Paul]

I knew what you meant so its all cool!

[Nightsky]

The overall view of things and where the gameline is going matters little to me on this subject.

In the games I run, the general populace (at least those living in civilized areas like sprawls and not some cabin in the middle of the woods) know vaguely what Shadowrunners are. As been said before.

Take James Bond for instance. James Bond is a secret agent. We know secret agents exists and all sorts of governments have them. However, James Bond would not survive in the real world as a secret agent. He's flashy, he draws attention, and he is very distinctive. All traits you do not want for a person that works as a spy. Someone trained NOT to be noticed. The real secret agent is a good looking playboy, but a fat balding man with eyeglasses who funnels out classified information from under intelligence agency's nose.

I use this basis on how the majority of the public views shadowrunners. Flashy, violent, glorified. On the trideo there may be a movie featuring heavily cybered samurai with rigid codes of honor (and insanely good looking), shamans that throw out mana without slowing down, mages who lose a dozen elementals a week without feeling the sting of the cost of materials to conjure them, the cliche elven shadowrunner in barely there body armor.

However, like I tell my new players, this is the "Movies" of the 2060s. Make the cliche elven vixen with drop dead looks and wears a bikini all the time and I promise that character won't last long. A bikini does not have armor protection. Real shadowrunners babes are the ones who are smart enough and savy enough to stay alive, wear real armor, and try not to stick out. You want heros in shadowrunning? Those don't come often. Stupid flashy, dramatic thigns that look good can get you killed even quickier. A real shadowrunner can't always afford the SOTA cybernetics and has to make do on what they have. Life isn't peaches and cream. It's fucking hell.

In the end, in my view, it's all a matte rof the 2060s media. and it's rather realistic. Hollywood has always glorified terrible things in order to make a quick buck.

[Serious Paul]

This has recently been asked about. Consider this a bump.

[I am poison]

Since when is the concept of a shadowrunner one that is commonly known by the unwashed masses?

Since First Edition: "Shadowrun, n. - any illegal or quasi-illegal action taken in exchange from money" 6th World Digital Dictionary (or something like that). The first edition Street Samurai Catalogue has a gun advertised as "the number 1 choice of Street Samurai" among several similar comments. In second edition we had "stills" from shadowrun simsense productions in the core book and Cyberpirates.

[DV8]

Since when is the concept of a shadowrunner one that is commonly known by the unwashed masses?

Since First Edition: "Shadowrun, n. - any illegal or quasi-illegal action taken in exchange from money" 6th World Digital Dictionary (or something like that). The first edition Street Samurai Catalogue has a gun advertised as "the number 1 choice of Street Samurai" among several similar comments. In second edition we had "stills" from shadowrun simsense productions in the core book and Cyberpirates.

You didn't actually read any of the posts, did you?

[I am poison]

You didn't actually read any of the posts, did you?

Some, seemed pretty much the same argument every time I hear it. Might have missed the defination of "Shadowrun" being posted though, which was all I really wanted to say.

[DV8]

You might have also missed that I wasn't disputing the fact that canon material shows Shadowrunners as glamour bunnies...

[MooCow]

You know, just to beat a dead horse a bit.....

Deev, Did you ever respond to my argument that with 100% control of the media, as you seemed to suggest existed, it didn't make any sense to use shadowrunners? It was in post fifteen or so. I don't think you did, I'm curious how you interpret that.

[I am poison]

You might have also missed that I wasn't disputing the fact that canon material shows Shadowrunners as glamour bunnies...

Allow me to apologize for not making my point clear originally. I should have simply sat down and given my usual longwinded response. Instead I slapped together a few disjointed thoughts and posted it - largely for something to do while waiting to see if Serious Paul would continue the discussion on space.

Going by the definition of shadowrun and the lack of any corporate entity being mentioned, it's clear that megacorps sidestepped most potential problems by simply defining it publicly as "crime for hire". By fictionalizing and sensationalizing it, they effectively marginalized it as fictional activities, and thus not really happening in the extent and context shown. Turning actual shadowruns into trid and simsense further fictionalizes the concept making it seem like a reality show - which we all know are fake. And so on. My point was that you're problem doesn't exist: it hasn't hurt the corps, business continues as usual, and they make more profits off publicizing it.

Edited.

[DV8]

Deev, Did you ever respond to my argument that with 100% control of the media, as you seemed to suggest existed, it didn't make any sense to use shadowrunners? It was in post fifteen or so. I don't think you did, I'm curious how you interpret that.

I interpretted it as a really good point.