Review for [Promised Sands]

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:57 pm

If you would like to see a review for Promised Sands, please follow the link to Sci-Fi-Weekly and request one. It will only take you a moment--and they already have a copy of the book to review.

Sci-Fi Weekly

Title: Promised Sands
Author: BBRACK Productions
URL: http://www.promisedsands.com

Thank you.

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:21 pm

and they already have a copy of the book

It levels their table.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:50 pm

Cash wrote:
and they already have a copy of the book
It levels their table.

Actually, I think they're using it as a coaster...

...or maybe a doorstop...

...*shrug* I dunno. Whatever they use it for, I hope they review it first...

Evan

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 6:53 pm

Geek bait was going to be my guess.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:30 am

Cazmonster wrote:Geek bait was going to be my guess.

I thought "geek bait" required something with "D&D" in the title...

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:53 am

Cazmonster points at Magic: the Gathering.

Nope, that's got heaps of geeks attached to it like a no fly strip.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 3:43 am

Cazmonster wrote:Cazmonster points at Magic: the Gathering.

Nope, that's got heaps of geeks attached to it like a no fly strip.

Did I say "D&D"? I meant to say "WotC"...

Evan

Pistons · Post by **Pistons** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:19 pm

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:23 pm

Eyeroll all you want, it was still incredibly accurate....

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:34 pm

Hasn't the "I don't like D&D even though I've never played it and people who play it are feeble and stupid" card been played already?

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:44 pm

Adam wrote:Hasn't the "I don't like D&D even though I've never played it and people who play it are feeble and stupid" card been played already?

Honestly wouldn't know, Adam.

I've not played that card.

I don't care for D&D. I like to poke fun at D&D. I consider it the "kindergarten" of gaming (in that it's usually the introduction to gaming just like kindergarten is the introduction to education) for most gamers. I don't think D&D translates well across all mediums. It works pretty well for "dungeon delving fantasy", but I believe it breaks down for most anything else. This is my opinion of the game system--not the people who play it.

I completely understand wanting to play something familiar and enjoyable that brings back great memories from the past.

I do not, however, consider those who play it to be "feeble and stupid". If you think that, then you are sorely misjudging me and what I have said.

As for "geeks" and "WotC"--I think it can be clearly shown that since most people who play RPGs or CCGs/TCGs are defined by others (or themselves) as "geeks" (myself included)--and since WotC seems to have the largest share of business in the gaming industry, it is clear that my statement--barring my opinion on D&D itself--is accurate.

(And I have played D&D. I've played several versions of D20 now, too. I still think the system is incredibly cumbersome, laughingly complex and annoyingly devoid of what I'm looking for in an RPG--namely, the ability to ROLEplay. I experienced a lot of DICEplay and ROLLplay in my various experiences, but I am still looking for an experience that has more nuances than "kill them and take their stuff".)

Evan

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:42 pm

KINDERGARTEN?!?!

Whoa...

D&D has to be one of the most complicated system, but the basics are easy to get...but...there are way too many different things in D&D....

Everyone, feel free to refute me

Kwyndig · Post by **Kwyndig** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:13 pm

Somebody lynch Evan, I started with Shadowrun, dammit! We had dice pools and we liked it!

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:27 pm

Kwyndig wrote:Somebody lynch Evan, I started with Shadowrun, dammit! We had dice pools and we liked it!

I started with MERP, then Shadowrun within 6 months (it was a brand-new game at the time and I had the fortune to see a copy prior to its official publication).

We break the typical mold, Kwyndig. We're a rare breed. We should protect one another instead of lynching each other....

(By the way, Alliance just informed me that they placed their initial order today.)

Evan

Kwyndig · Post by **Kwyndig** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:33 pm

Oh no, I'd prefer to have you lynched. Honestly, I'd be much happier if your book failed horribly.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:39 pm

Kwyndig wrote:Oh no, I'd prefer to have you lynched. Honestly, I'd be much happier if your book failed horribly.

Ouch. Didn't know you hated me, Kwyndig. That's some pretty harsh sentiment.

I've never been told by anyone that they wanted my creative endeavor--sight unseen--to be a failure before.

Man, what'd I ever do to you?

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:09 am

I think the schooling analogy is flawed. Here's why: Education is about achieving something [namely, an education.] that is not considered 'complete' until you reach certain levels. Now, you could have just a kindergarten education, but I'd hardly call it complete enough to stand for anything.

Gaming, for most people, is purely about having fun. You can have fun playing D&D for your entire gaming career and never need or want to play another game. Sure, it's not as elegant as some games. Sure, it's mostly geared towards a typical style of play. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good thing: a game should try to do what it does well, and not worry about what it does badly [unless it does the stated goal badly.]

Constantly comparing a game to one that /doesn't attempt to do the same thing/ seems silly to me.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:18 am

Okay.

Change the level, then.

D&D is like one of your freshman year classes in college. You may end up taking "Dragon Lance" or "Dark Sun" or even other D20 products... Advancing through the "degree program" that is D20.

It is still a very common choice--equate it to the Physical Education requirements of most colleges. One could even equate it to mathematics--since it is rather complex.

But, I'd definitely put other games in the place of "English", "Literature", "Drama", "Psychology", etc.

Evan

steeltoe1926 · Post by **steeltoe1926** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:15 am

I have played many systems I waws started on Shad, became schooled in d&d (coulden't ersest the pun), learned Vampiers the Masq. (Wight Wolf), then varius others including my new obsesion In Nomine and I have found that other than how complacated the system is compareitively it is a very simlpe game that will always hold a place in my hart... but no where as large as Shad.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:39 am

Damn - a game I don't know. What's Shad?

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:42 am

Shad: The Little Fish RPG.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:48 am

Adam wrote:Shad: The Little Fish RPG.

Adam, I love you. I want to clone you and raise my own little Adam.

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:19 am

I finally figured out what can constitute kindergarten RPG...

It's called... "doctor"

Gunny · Post by **Gunny** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:41 pm

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 2:50 pm

EvanMoore wrote:I don't think D&D translates well across all mediums. It works pretty well for "dungeon delving fantasy", but I believe it breaks down for most anything else.

That's because D&D is "dungeon-delving fantasy". If you're talking about D20, rather than just D&D, though, it's quite different. I've seen some great D20 adaptations, with more to come. If you don't believe D20 can do anything except D&D, you obviously haven't seen Silver Age Sentinels, or D20 Modern, or Mutants and Masterminds -- and just wait until Gamma World comes out.

annoyingly devoid of what I'm looking for in an RPG--namely, the ability to ROLEplay.

Dude, if you're looking in the rules to tell you how to roleplay, you're going to be sorely disappointed with most games. D&D doesn't stop you roleplaying, if roleplaying is what you want to do. The rules may not push you into it, but they certainly don't stop you, either.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:00 pm

Jestyr wrote: That's because D&D is "dungeon-delving fantasy". If you're talking about D20, rather than just D&D, though, it's quite different. I've seen some great D20 adaptations, with more to come. If you don't believe D20 can do anything except D&D, you obviously haven't seen Silver Age Sentinels, or D20 Modern, or Mutants and Masterminds -- and just wait until Gamma World comes out.

Ah Gamma World, you poor maligned bastard of a game. You make my heart skip a beat, with your death field mutants.

There's my post apocalyptic goodness.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:26 pm

Jestyr wrote:If you don't believe D20 can do anything except D&D, you obviously haven't seen Silver Age Sentinels, or D20 Modern, or Mutants and Masterminds -- and just wait until Gamma World comes out.

I certainly hope that Gamma World is better. I am not a fan of Supers--so I'd not find much of interest in either SAS or M&M. However, I do love games of intrigue, espionage and adventure. Spycraft left me cold. D20 Modern is so convoluted that you'd have to water it down just make the game playable. The only positive thing I have to say about the D20 Modern machanics is: At least they got the calibers of the weapons to have the same damage codes. Sadly, however, they had to develop a mechanic contrivance to reveal the deadly nature of firearms.

No, I still do not consider the D20 mechanic to be a thing of beauty--no matter what the setting.

Dude, if you're looking in the rules to tell you how to roleplay, you're going to be sorely disappointed with most games. D&D doesn't stop you roleplaying, if roleplaying is what you want to do. The rules may not push you into it, but they certainly don't stop you, either.

As you say, "the rules may not push you into it". And that, really, is my whole point.

It's not that you can't roleplay. Let's face it, a good roleplayer doesn't need rules to roleplay. In fact, the fewer the rules, the better the roleplay!

That has been my point all along.

"The D&D/D20 rule do nothing to help you roleplay."

They are an overlarge, heavily burdened, mechanical nightmare. That is my problem with D&D/D20. Not that they prevent you from roleplaying--rather, that they do absolutely nothing to help you--in fact, I'd go so far as to say that due to their overlarge, heavy burdening, they actively hinder roleplaying.

That's my gripe with the mechanic.

But, you know, if it's a mechanic that you like, appreciate, or enjoy--then that's great! And that's a wonderful opinion that you have! And I hope you enjoy playing till your dying day! But, it's not for me and I don't find it enjoyable.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that, for a good roleplayer, the mechanic is virtually meaningless. I wish that I was a good enough roleplayer not to cringe every time I have to endure the monstrosity of the D&D/D20 mechanics. I really do wish I could enjoy it. I wish I could suspend my disbelief enough to tolerate it. I can't.

(Sad thing is, I could do it enough to like Dungeons and Dragons: the Movie and even Battlefield Earth.)

Maybe--and I am holding out for this to be a possibility--all I need is a good D&D/D20 Game Master to come along and show me it has some redeeming factors.

*Begin music: Holding Out for a Hero*

Until I can find that heroic GM--someone who can make a D&D/D20 game session an enjoyable experience, I am forced to be brutally honest that D&D/D20 is the 3rd worst game mechanic I've ever seen.

(FATAL has the #1 slot, Rolemaster/Chartmaster has #2.)

Evan

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:22 pm

You mess with my Laura Brannigan and I will find you and I will kill you.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 4:11 pm

Cazmonster wrote:You mess with my Laura Brannigan and I will find you and I will kill you.

Nothing personal was offered or said, Caz. We're talking about game mechanics not people.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:34 pm

For what it's worth, I would be hard-pressed to contradict anything Evan said in the above post about D20. I'm not saying Trinary is better, I'm not saying D&D sucks, I'm not lynching people or taking sides, but Evan's right when he says that the D20 rules don't assist in roleplaying. I'm sure it's a nice system, and many many people - like Caz - play brilliantly with it. But I personally find it repulsively and unnecessarily complex.

I think a good game system can and should be very simple, and I think it should lend itself to the active playing of roles. D20 isn't either of those things; it's a system created by and for rules lawyers to try to cover every possible eventuality, and while it may succeed at that, it's simply too labyrinthine for me and for every player I play with. We, of course, use Paul's Patented Simplified Shadowrun, which pretty much boils down to, "I don't know, roll the dice that make sense, and I'll tell you what happens." That level of ruling means you spend nearly all of your time in character, and you /don't/ have to spend a whole lot of time thinking about what the effects of your 12 Feats are in conjuction with your blah blah blah. You just roll your firearms skill, and the rest is common sense.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 8:11 pm

Then again, Paul could run d20 in the same manner he runs SR, if you're just throwing away parts of the game to enhance other parts.

"It's 'better' than D&D!" doesn't sell a game to non-D&D players [they already play games that they think are better than D&D] and it doesn't sell a game to D&D players [they play D&D!] and it only marginally sells the game to people that play both.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:26 pm

Adam wrote:Then again, Paul could run d20 in the same manner he runs SR, if you're just throwing away parts of the game to enhance other parts.

Absolutely. Paul would run D20 in much the same way he runs Shadowrun's system. The problem is, not everyone is Paul; I, for instance, just can't manage the kind of extemporaneous invention he can. A system which has Paul's simplicity /built in,/ instead of a giant system with thousands of rules you have to wade through before you decide which ones you want to keep, is the kind of system I'd like to see.

Of course, my ideal system is so pathetically simple it defies explanation: I would use percentages for everything, and statistical analysis of real life analogues to determine the guidelines for that probability. For instance, you take someone with an average amount of firearms training out to a range and have him shoot at moving targets at varying ranges. Then you take a beginnner out and do the same thing, and an expert. There's your basis for probability. The idea is - for me - to leave the math to the game designers, and leave the players with nothing ruleswise to do but compare results and add or subtract simple modifiers. I don't know if it would work, and I certainly don't know any game designers with the time and money to go through the hassel of finding out all these probabilities, but it's my ideal, and I'm sticking to it.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:31 pm

And by the way, like him or not, a member of this community just got his own roleplaying game published, in book form, and a pretty sizeable book, too. I think it's pathetic that no one has /anything/ congratulatory to say to him, and instead only demeaning comments and "fighting words." Not to sound all ShadowRN-esque, but until one of you publishes several hundred pages of your own gameworld, you should respect those who've logged more time and effort than you have.

Congratulations, Evan. I wish you and Promised Sands all the success they deserve, which is all anyone can hope for.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:41 pm

3278 wrote:Not to sound all ShadowRN-esque,

Sorry, but that just went completely over my head. What did you mean by ShadowRN-esque if I might ask? Never seen anything that really bad about the list so I can't quite figure out how you're using it in this context. Thanks.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:31 pm

3278 wrote:A system which has Paul's simplicity /built in,/ instead of a giant system with thousands of rules you have to wade through before you decide which ones you want to keep, is the kind of system I'd like to see.

Couldn't any number of so-called Rules Lite systems handle the job? Fudge [probably too much prep work], Uni-System, Tri-Stat, Sorcerer [Adept Press, not White Wolf.], even GURPS Lite [too crunchy for my tastes, but definately with the realistic bend you want.]

3278 wrote:And by the way, like him or not, a member of this community just got his own roleplaying game published, in book form, and a pretty sizeable book, too. I think it's pathetic that no one has /anything/ congratulatory to say to him, and instead only demeaning comments and "fighting words."

Well, I haven't said dick about Promised Sands - positive or negative - and don't intend to until I see the book at Origins. I figure it's only fair to evaluate the product on the product's merits.

I suspect that a lot of the lack of congratulations simply comes from a) Not everyone being particularly fond of Evan in general, and b) Evan disappearing and then coming back right when the book is released - just in time to seemingly pimp it.

Rude of 'us'? Perhaps, but not unexpected, IMO.

Kwyndig · Post by **Kwyndig** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:54 pm

And, of course, that is why I hate Evan and wish for his book to fail. He's simply back to pimp it out. Looking at all the extraneous crap his company generates on other boards pimiping this game, I hope it's the biggest flop ever.

Now, he's welcome to come and say exactly the same things about any book I ever release. But, at the rate things are going (since it's kind of impossible around here to get loans with no collateral, no job, and no credit history) that will probably be around 2067.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:04 am

Adam wrote:Well, I haven't said dick about Promised Sands - positive or negative - and don't intend to until I see the book at Origins. I figure it's only fair to evaluate the product on the product's merits.

Good call. I read the first chapter - it's on his web site - and it's at least professional-looking, which puts it over half the books out there.

Adam wrote:I suspect that a lot of the lack of congratulations simply comes from a) Not everyone being particularly fond of Evan in general, and b) Evan disappearing and then coming back right when the book is released - just in time to seemingly pimp it.

Oh, hell, take out the "seemingly." I don't see /any/ other reason he's back. Which is rude, heck yeah, but if Harley came back to tell us he'd just published a scifi paperback, we'd suck his dick. So I think it's more that everyone dislikes Evan. I just don't think - and this is me, personally - that hatred's a reason to not acknowledge accomplishment. Like you say, it's not unexpected, I just think it sucks.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:47 am

Okay, for the record, I left this community because I didn't have time to spend here--nor did I think it worth my time when every time I logged in, I faced Kwyndig-esque vitriol.

Kwyndig's response to my promotions of Promised Sands are exactly the reason that small producers fail in this industry. It's really sad when the fans and the consumers kill off their own hobby.

I came back here and posted for the few people I thought might be interested.

Adam,
For the record, you did say "dick" about Promised Sands. In fact, the way you have twisted my words on here (twice!) has really made me question your professionalism. Everyone else may think you're a god here--but I consider you a man. Your deliberate twisting of words (once to suggest that I was making personal attacks against the players of D&D and the other to suggest I was saying Promised Sands was "better" than D&D--two things I did not say) has me questioning if you really are going to give Promised Sands a fair shake.

...and you even begged for a free copy. How pathetic.

Three-Two,
I appreciate the fact that you are willing to analyze the effort and not be offended that I have "invaded" your place to share information about Promised Sands.

It will do no good to most of the people in this community, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

The interesting thing about the bitching and whining about my showing up again is that if I'd posted one of those huge "goodbye" threads, people would have complained about that, if I'd showed up here a month ago and just gotten all friendly and then talked about Promised Sands, people would have complained about my "underhanded and sneaky" methods.

No, there is no pleasing these people short of the newspaper article proclaiming my violent death, the estrangement of my wife, the drug abuse of my children and the failure of every creative endeavor I have made.

And you wonder why I didn't come back sooner....

Evan

P.S. You know, I have done everything I can to "make nice" with people here. I've offered to publish Caz's game. I've tried to get people involved in the project (I can't speak too highly for the dependability factor of the game designers, writers and editors on here--so I'll just chalk it up that they, too, hate me and wanted to disassociate from me instead of working as professionals). The only thing I can think of that people don't like about me is that I'm not a sheep and don't fawn over them and their ideas.

P.P.S. Three-two, I still want to game with you and your group sometime.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:27 am

Just a couple of points: (and, like Adam, I haven't made any comments yet since I haven't seen anything beyond chunks of the free PDF).

EvanMoore wrote:and the other to suggest I was saying Promised Sands was "better" than D&D--two things I did not say)

You certainly did back when you were introducing Promised Sands to us, back on BD0.2. You seemed quite clear, then, on how much better it was than D&D.

EvanMoore wrote:(I can't speak too highly for the dependability factor of the game designers, writers and editors on here--so I'll just chalk it up that they, too, hate me and wanted to disassociate from me instead of working as professionals).

Speaking as one of the aforementioned people, I don't appreciate the slander against the professionalism of any of us.

Speaking for myself, I remember discussing it briefly with you in April last year, when you made it clear that you wanted me to write for the game, you wanted me to guarantee I'd be free and available to write for you when you needed me, but you couldn't actually pay me anything. If I didn't make it clear at the time that those were unacceptable terms, my apologies; my only defense was that I was holidaying in Europe at the time of the discussions, and therefore was not focussing much on working for someone who wasn't going to pay me.

So, we're unprofessional simply because we didn't work for you? Well, gosh, I'm sorry, but I've been flat-out for the last year writing for other companies. I'm not a Time Lord; I can't write for every game in the universe.

As far as I can see, you have no cause to criticise the dependability or professionalism of the various industry people who hang around Bulldrek. If you have specific gripes with one person, that's fine, and I'm not going to debate the validity of your gripes. But to tar and feather an entire group of people for no apparent reason seems a little unreasonable.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:03 pm

Jestyr,
This thread, baby, this thread. Don't drag up stuff (particularly unquoted, particularly from another board, particularly over a year old). Yeah. I'll admit that I think Promised Sands is easier, more versatile and less rules heavy than D&D. This is my opinion--not a value comparison. I don't like D&D. I have not tried to hide that fact.

Doesn't mean it would stop me from making a D20 supplement, however. Doesn't mean that I think D&D is garbage. Doesn't mean that I think the people who play D&D are stupid. (And anyone who twists my words to say that is just trying to stir up trouble.)

"Better"? That's subjective. I think D&D is flawed and I tried to create a system with fewer flaws.

I did *not*, however, make any comparison statement here. I did *not* say it. To suggest that I did is false, wrong and a lie. And, yes, our discussion is here and now--this forum, this thread, this window of time. Dragging up statements made from days gone by just proves my point that this community likes to hold a grudge.

As for my statement about people lacking professionalism, you have no need to get defensive--you weren't even on my radar. You and I talked and you asked for $.045 per word--which, at the time, was more than I was willing to pay (still is, in fact--our rates for already published writers is $.04 per word). You also said you weren't available. I completely understand that. You also have preferences for not only a specific universe (i.e. Shadowrun), but specific companies that have historically shown they treat you as you wish to be treated. Again, I have no issues with that.

As I said--you weren't even on my radar.

If I wanted to name-names, I would have. I didn't for a reason.

And, no, I don't consider "unprofessional" those who just say, "Man, I'm not interested." It would take more--like, perhaps, stringing me along for several months, signing agreements, saying you're interested, doing nothing and eventually maligning me and/or Promised Sands in public. Asking for a free copy of the book just takes the cake.

For the record, I don't think Promised Sands is perfect. I recognize the fact that we're entering a professional arena as rank amateurs. Yet, I am full-well expecting to receive comparisons to professional publishing houses who have been in the business for years and put out dozens (or even hundreds) or previous products. Promised Sands is what it is--and I think our team did a good job.

You can hate me all you like--but realize that it's incredibly unfair to the artists, writers, editors, compilers, copy editors, other developers and designers to take your hatred--or annoyance--of me and run down their work, too.

I don't mind the heat. But--just as you jump up to defend Adam when you feel him injusticed--I think it's not only wrong, but incredibly petty of anyone who would malign Promised Sands just because they don't like me.

But, then, that's the Bulldrek community in a nutshell--petty, grudging and unforgiving. If it weren't for a few redeeming members, I'd never set "foot" here again.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:33 pm

EvanMoore wrote:Jestyr,
This thread, baby, this thread. Don't drag up stuff (particularly unquoted, particularly from another board, particularly over a year old).

My apologies. Usually I try not to ignore the sum total of a person's previous statements when I'm dealing with their current ones - especially when they're claiming they never said things. Note that for most people, never does not mean 'never in this particular thread'.

I did *not*, however, make any comparison statement here. I did *not* say it. To suggest that I did is false, wrong and a lie. And, yes, our discussion is here and now--this forum, this thread, this window of time. Dragging up statements made from days gone by just proves my point that this community likes to hold a grudge.

No, it just proves that we remember what you say, and unless you specifically state that you've changed your mind, we assume your previous opinions hold. If I say I hate spinach, in a year's time Caz is probably still going to assume I hate spinach, unless I've specifically said otherwise in the meantime.

But I'll take it as noted. I shall ignore everything you've ever said in the past, and only ever remember what you say in a particular thread, if you like.

You and I talked and you asked for $.045 per word--which, at the time, was more than I was willing to pay

Actually, if you want to bring up specifics, I said that was my peak rate of pay. I have since taken contracts for less, under particular circumstances. And let's not nitpick; at the time you couldn't pay *anything*, and what prevented me from offering any of my time was the fact that you wanted something I couldn't give - a guarantee that I would be available to write for you when you wanted me, which would have prevented me from taking any other contracts.

Kudos that the business is doing so well that you can pay $0.04 a word, though. It's more than most start-ups manage, and I think you're proving a lot of people's assumptions wrong on that score.

You also have preferences for not only a specific universe (i.e. Shadowrun),

Oh, not true. I have said repeatedly that I'd write toilet paper blurb if it furthered my writing career. Of my last eight contracts, one has been for Nobilis, one for Silver Age Sentinels, three for Demon, two for Orpheus, and one for Shadowrun.

Mind you, this is all totally tangential, but still.

stringing me along for several months, signing agreements, saying you're interested, doing nothing and eventually maligning me and/or Promised Sands in public. Asking for a free copy of the book just takes the cake.

Fair enough. As I haven't seen any of the aforementioned game industry peeps doing all the above, I can't say I'd count any of them as unprofessional on those grounds.

Promised Sands is what it is--and I think our team did a good job.

Early buzz from the RPGnet crowd appears to bear you out on that.

You can hate me all you like--but realize that it's incredibly unfair to the artists, writers, editors, compilers, copy editors, other developers and designers to take your hatred--or annoyance--of me and run down their work, too.

I never said I hated you, nor any of the contributors to Promised Sands. In a general sense, since you seem to be making this all about my opinion of you: I dislike some of your attitudes and moral standpoints - but I disagree with a bunch of my friends on similar issues, so that means nothing. I think some of your perceptions on the gaming industry have been very skewed in the past, and you may have made some faulty decisions based on that, but I'm hard pressed to identify a point where I said I hate you.

I don't mind the heat. But--just as you jump up to defend Adam when you feel him injusticed--I think it's not only wrong, but incredibly petty of anyone who would malign Promised Sands just because they don't like me.

Are they allowed to malign Promised Sands because they don't like *it*?

Incidentally, I had no idea you were referring to Adam, with your comments, so there's no need to get specific. Your comments were general, about the entire gaming industry community on these forums, and my defense was equally general.

(And I thought you didn't want to name names?)

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:56 pm

EvanMoore wrote:Kwyndig's response to my promotions of Promised Sands are exactly the reason that small producers fail in this industry. It's really sad when the fans and the consumers kill off their own hobby.

Well, there's about 43.3 million other reasons, but yeah, Kwyndig is being a dick.

For the record, you did say "dick" about Promised Sands.

No - I have said that I think you are using "It's different/better than D&D!" to promote Promised Sands,and I don't think that's a smart marketing tactic [especially here, where I don't think you need to actively market your game; the people interested in it will already know enough about it, the people not interested likely won't ever be.] but I have not made any comments about the actual book and contents, as I haven't seen it yet.

And, no, I don't consider "unprofessional" those who just say, "Man, I'm not interested." It would take more--like, perhaps, stringing me along for several months, signing agreements, saying you're interested, doing nothing and eventually maligning me and/or Promised Sands in public. Asking for a free copy of the book just takes the cake.

I signed an NDA so I could see the playtest draft. I offered up comments and a bunch of suggestions as to how I thought the rough draft should be refined. Ideas were discussed at Origins, and after that I didn't hear from you again except for brief contact at GenCon. When the final product out, I wanted to see how it turned out, so I checked to see if I was on the comp list; you offered me a copy at a discount price, and I accepted. Had you instead asked to trade product as many in the industry do, I likely would have done the same. Had you not, I would have waited until one of the summer cons when I could look at the book before dropping a bunch of cash on it.

I was never offered solid work from you [IE "This many words, this subject, this deadline, this pay rate."] and I never strung you along.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:21 pm

Jestyr wrote:Usually I try not to ignore the sum total of a person's previous statements when I'm dealing with their current ones - especially when they're claiming they never said things. Note that for most people, never does not mean 'never in this particular thread'.

My comments were regarding this thread because--barring any quotes from someplace else--this is the entire pervue of the conversation at hand.

If Adam had said, "In another thread, on another forum, over a year ago, you said..." Then I would not have said he was twisting my words here. I try to keep things in context, personally--and to drag up material from a year ago is out of context. It also assumes that everything is the same, the same opinions hold, the same level of growth and understanding has been maintained. And it also means that the entire posted existance of someone must be available for all to read--which is why I take particular gripe with the idea that you may remember a statement from another board, another thread, another time--but without quoting it, no one else is.

This is the discussion. The here. The now. If you want to ask a pertinant question about "something you stated over a year ago on a different board", then please quote it and that way, I can address it and say, "Yes, I've learned since then."

The fact of the matter is, many of my opinions have changed in the intervening time and to take me to task over something I may have said in the past--and a subjective opinion at that--is really petty and looks as though it is only intended to stir up trouble from those who hold D&D more dear to their hearts than their belief (or lack thereof) in God.

it just proves that we remember what you say, and unless you specifically state that you've changed your mind, we assume your previous opinions hold. If I say I hate spinach, in a year's time Caz is probably still going to assume I hate spinach, unless I've specifically said otherwise in the meantime.

Actually, I'd strongly disagree. It means you choose to remember that which will re-enforce your negative opinion. No one seems to remember the posts where I have retracted such statemens and clarified them to indicate they are my personal opinion.

As for spinich--let's face it, even those tastes can change--and we're not dealing with a biological or chemical effect in the body--we're dealing with famliarity and opinion. Which can change drastically and quickly. Instead of assuming that this is the same (and thus perpetuate ill-will, bad feelings and re-enforcing the grudges all around), a simple, "Didn't you say this before?" would be appropriate--thus allowing me to say, "You know, before I really looked at it in depth, I had some uninformed opinions and I have since made those informed opinions and here they are..."

But I'll take it as noted. I shall ignore everything you've ever said in the past, and only ever remember what you say in a particular thread, if you like.

No need to go to extremes. Just look for polite discourse instead of trying to nail someone to the wall. I realize that this is anti-Bulldrek methodology, but, hey--you might find it works!

Actually, if you want to bring up specifics, I said that was my peak rate of pay. I have since taken contracts for less, under particular circumstances. And let's not nitpick; at the time you couldn't pay *anything*, and what prevented me from offering any of my time was the fact that you wanted something I couldn't give - a guarantee that I would be available to write for you when you wanted me, which would have prevented me from taking any other contracts.

Actually, if you want to nitpick, at the time I didn't know what I could afford and I was willing to entertain whatever you suggested. It was at the beginning of our budgeting--where we moved from putting out an amateur project to full-fledged, business model, product development with budgets and everything.

Yes, I could have paid at that point--I thought that I sent you a PM to that effect, in fact.

Kudos that the business is doing so well that you can pay $0.04 a word, though. It's more than most start-ups manage, and I think you're proving a lot of people's assumptions wrong on that score.

Thank you--let's just hope that Kwydig's hopes and dreams of our failure do not bear out and we can afford to do more in the future. We have plans for two more product lines next year. It's aggressive, but I think we can do it.

Early buzz from the RPGnet crowd appears to bear you out on that.

Indeed. I have had some industry people give us some serious compliments--but they are partially involved in the project, so their words are "tainted" by RPGnet standards. Still, I consider their words to be of value.

I never said I hated you, nor any of the contributors to Promised Sands. In a general sense, since you seem to be making this all about my opinion of you: I dislike some of your attitudes and moral standpoints - but I disagree with a bunch of my friends on similar issues, so that means nothing. I think some of your perceptions on the gaming industry have been very skewed in the past, and you may have made some faulty decisions based on that, but I'm hard pressed to identify a point where I said I hate you.

I should have clarified that as the "general you". However, I appreciate your statements. I disagree with a lot of people (imagine that!), but I don't hate anyone. I find it childish that people develop hatred for differences of opinion.

I'd be quite interested to know where you think my "perceptions on the gaming industry have been very skewed in the past" and exactly what "faulty decisions" have been made. I respect your knowledge of the industry and would sincerely like to know what you think.

Are they allowed to malign Promised Sands because they don't like *it*?

Of course. Though, if they haven't actually looked at it and malign it just because they don't like me, then I'll call them petty, childish and people who hold grudges just to keep themselves warm at night.

Incidentally, I had no idea you were referring to Adam, with your comments, so there's no need to get specific. Your comments were general, about the entire gaming industry community on these forums, and my defense was equally general.

(And I thought you didn't want to name names?)

I wasn't specifically. You defended something he said at the beginning of your post--and I was referencing that "defense" you made of him. Here it is:

Jestyr wrote: Just a couple of points: (and, like Adam, I haven't made any comments yet since I haven't seen anything beyond chunks of the free PDF).

That was where I was referencing you "coming to his defense".

Evan

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:34 pm

Adam wrote:Well, there's about 43.3 million other reasons, but yeah, Kwyndig is being a dick.

I think they can be narrowed down to fewer than 5 basic issues--and Kwyndig's "being a dick" mentality is #3 on my list.

I was never offered solid work from you [IE "This many words, this subject, this deadline, this pay rate."] and I never strung you along.

No, I didn't have anything specific to you because you never said whether you could or could not work with me. We discussed the needs I had and I asked if you could do it (at Origins last year). You said you would get back with me. I had you slated to write two chapters on my schedule until three months later you informed me that you had taken another contract. I was waiting for you to get back to me.

I felt strung along. As far as I was concerned, it was solid, "you can count on it" work. All we had to do was actually sign papers.

Maybe there were some misunderstandings. But, there were three people I was trying to work with on Bulldrek at the time and all three fell through--souring me pretty hard on dealing with anyone related to Bulldrek ever again.

Since then, I have tried to approach a couple others--only to be rebuffed. So, I figure the freelane writing world must be pretty busy and no one is interested in paying work. I have turned to other avenues to get the jobs done--with a seriously soured perspective toward this cesspool.

Harsh? Perhaps. But it's honestly how I feel. I've been burned. A few times too many.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:49 pm

I just have to keep reminding myself: Everyone is human. Everyone is human. No matter how high your expectations for their behavior, everyone is human.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:16 pm

EvanMoore wrote:No, I didn't have anything specific to you because you never said whether you could or could not work with me. We discussed the needs I had and I asked if you could do it (at Origins last year). You said you would get back with me. I had you slated to write two chapters on my schedule until three months later you informed me that you had taken another contract. I was waiting for you to get back to me.

I felt strung along. As far as I was concerned, it was solid, "you can count on it" work. All we had to do was actually sign papers.

Well, I'm sorry you felt strung along. I had no idea that you had solid work that you wanted to assign to me at that time; I was under the assumption that when/if I said "Okay, I have some time." I would then be kept in the loop about opportunities for the line. When I start discussions with GOO in September about joining them full-time, I stopped taking freelance assignments so my plate would be clear in case I had to move suddenly. I didn't feel it necessary to notify you because I wasn't under the impression that you wanted my help.

I'd chalk this one up to a misunderstanding.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:18 pm

Evan, is this game sort of like Al-Quadim meets Dark Sun? I know it's a comparison that probably doesn't do it much justice, but it's the general feel of it when I skimmed the website. Am I correct?

Kwyndig · Post by **Kwyndig** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:28 pm

I'll admit I'm being a dick about this issue. I hold strong opinions on certain topics, and without some damn good convincing otherwise, I don't change them. What I've seen so far has supported, not negated, my opinion.

Evan here and his book have annoyed me since day one, I'm not quite sure I can pin down why. Sometimes I just form an instant and total loathing of a thing from the first impression, usually, this turns into a well grounded opinion later. I have been wrong before, and I will be wrong again, but I still see no point in Evan or his game. Hearing other people's opinions of Evan's business practices (not being willing to pay established freelancers like Jes, demanding that they be available over other paying work, his continual belief and loud claims in the superiority of his game over other established systems, etc.) just makes me dislike him more. In my opinion, it is people like him who cause small publishers to fail. I'd buy a copy of his book, to read through once and then dispose of properly, but that would be buying a copy of his book, and that is something I will never do.

End of line, end of rant, end of me ever saying another word to or about Evan again. Oh yes, and if you can't be bothered to spell my name properly while spewing your poison, don't talk about me.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:36 pm

DV8 wrote:Evan, is this game sort of like Al-Quadim meets Dark Sun? I know it's a comparison that probably doesn't do it much justice, but it's the general feel of it when I skimmed the website. Am I correct?

Having never played either one, I can't really say. It has been compared to both games, this is true--but I don't have any experience with them at all.

Kwyndig wrote:Hearing other people's opinions of Evan's business practices (not being willing to pay established freelancers like Jes, demanding that they be available over other paying work, his continual belief and loud claims in the superiority of his game over other established systems, etc.) just makes me dislike him more.

1) I have not "done business" with anyone on this forum. Jes asked for a rate I was unwilling to pay. Adam clearly stated we had a misunderstanding. The other person on here who shall remain nameless bit off more than they could chew and backed out. Where did you get this idea that I "demanded that they be available over other paying work"? It's clear you have formed an opinon based upon a seriously skewed perspective--or outright lies--which speaks volumes as to the accuracy thereof.

2) Those people who have done business with me have lauded me with praises. Would you like to see the threads on the Freelancer Forum where they have done so? I can provide references that show that BBRACK Productions has a sterling reputation.

Kwyndig wrote:I still see no point in Evan or his game.

Then why bother posting and being such a dick? Why--if you clearly have a biased and deliberately bad attitude--do you bother to post? Why say things like "I hope you fail"?

If you don't see a point, then why bother?

Kwyndig wrote:end of me ever saying another word to or about Evan again. Oh yes, and if you can't be bothered to spell my name properly while spewing your poison, don't talk about me.

Didn't realize I'd misspelled your name, my apologies.

As for the rest--I'll believe it when I see it.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:03 pm

Kwyndig, you opinion of the game has nothing at all to do with the game, but with your opinion of Evan. That makes you a very petty individual, especially if you come here to interject your opinions of him into a thread about his game. Why don't you knock that shit off and go talk to a wall or something? I'm sure the wall will be a lot more eager to hear your opinion about Evan while the rest of bulldrek discusses his game in this thread.