[SR] Timing Problems in Combat

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Wed May 28, 2003 8:26 am

Problem
In my game, during combat, I keep encountering the same problem over and over again - especially in shoot-outs. Shoot out starts, people start to take cover, everyone shoots the shit out of eachother. So far so good. The problem arises when people start ducking in and out of cover to shoot.

How do I determine if someone with a lower initiative roll is still able to react to someone who comes out of cover, shoots twice, and disappears behind cover again? I mean, a round is three seconds, roughly, in that three seconds everyone performs their actions, but when someone has rolled exceptionally shitty he or she will keep being unable to target anyone because they ducked back into cover again.

Proposed Solution
I have come to the following conclusion; unless there's a game mechanic that I'm missing, which covers this specific problem, the three second round has to be divided up into smaller segments, based on the rolled initiative. Taking the highest initiative roll and dividing three seconds by it, you'll end up with smaller increments.

For Example
Three participants in a shoot-out, all behind cover. A and B are shooting at C. Moving in and out of cover are, for simplicity's sake, considered as Free Actions [FA].

Initiative
Mage: 12
Sam: 24 (rounded up = 30)
Face: 13

First Combat Phase
Per three seconds, 30 segments pass. In each ten segments, one Complex Action [CA] can be made, or two Simple Actions [SA]. In each five segments, one SA can be made. Counting back from ten, you'll see that in the sixth segment Sam start acting. The sixth segment in this case doesn't really mean anything, except to determine who acts before the other. He decides to take two SA's, stepping enough out of cover to take a shot at Face, he aims, but finds Face still in cover. He decides to wait until Face blows his cover.

In the seventh segment, Face starts acting. He moves out of cover and also decides to use two SA's to shoot at whoever. Sam, holding his action, can now fire in the seventh segment. Face fires simultaneously at Sam, who is also out of cover. A shot takes five segments, after the first of those five, in segment eight, hearing the movement, Mage starts acting, and gets out from behind cover, and decides to cast a spell, a CA.

Segment 11 rolls around and the first shots are fired. Sam shoots at Face, Face shoots at Sam. In segment 12 Sam finds out he's out of bullets and decides to forego his second SA and duck back behind cover. Face decides to spend his second SA shooting at Mage, who has just come out of cover and is now vulnerable to attack, since Sam is ducking behind cover again. Mage is still busy casting his spell, started in segment eight, and finished in segment 17. Face, now in segment 16, fires his second shot at the still vulnerable Mage and manages to disrupt his concentration through the proper application of death. Meanwhile, in segment 16, Sam started his second combat phase...

Second Combat Phase
Face, not knowing Sam's ran out of bullets, is feeling lucky he's still alive and is going to take his winnings and run. He's 18 meters away from Sam, who, in segment 16 used a FA to come out of cover, and is moving towards Face.

Movement
Per ten segments, a player can walk his Quickness [Qck] in metres or run three times his Qck in metres.
Mage: Qck 0 [Unconscious]
Sam: Qck 8
Face: Qck 5

In segment 16 Sam starts making his way to Face. Segment 16 also sees Mage plummeting to the floor. Sam, having a Qck of 8, can run 24 metres in one combat phase - read: 10 segments, or 1 CA - or run 12 metres in one combat phase - read: 5 segments, or 1 SA - and still have enough time left to perform a SA, with a +2 penalty to his target number for running in segment 20.

Now, as everyone has probably noticed, this system absolutely breaks down as soon as one of the characters has no more combat phases left, while others do, since the only thing they can do is gawk. So, timing keeps being a big problem in my games. If anyone can hand me a good solution, then I'm all ears.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed May 28, 2003 10:10 am

The rule we use is actually pretty simple. If you wanna be able to fire, then through out the entire combat phase you never have more than partial cover. There are exceptions to this i.e. gun ports, etc... but thats the simple jist of it The idea is basically, with partial cover, your exposing yourself at some point in the three second round to fire, which means that at some point, your not toally covered, and as such, become possibly, a target. If they wanna retain full cover and fire, its blind fire, because they aren't ducking out to aim... your just on the "spray and pray" mentality. Lets face it, 3 seconds is pretty damn fast, especially when your dodging bullets and trying to fire back. Trying to figure out if someone has partial or full cover for whatever nanosecond of the round someone's turn is at, you'll go nuts and end up dragging out a minor, inconsequential combat for hours.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Wed May 28, 2003 11:54 am

I don't really see the problem here. I mean, you'd run into the same exact thing in real life. Unless someone deliberately keeps himself out of cover in order to shoot at people, then nobody's going to get hit, barring any simultaneous pop-ups or bullets penetrating the cover. And considering that the rules really only allow you to get one simple action off if you are doing the whole "pop, shoot, duck" thing, then sooner or later someone is going to need to pop and hold.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Wed May 28, 2003 12:07 pm

Well, consider that two players roll an initiative with an one or two points difference. One decides to cast a spell, which is a Complex Action, the other decides to shoot twice. I say that the first shot should be finished, over and done with before the caster is done casting his spell. Things happen simultaneous, or virtually simultaneous.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed May 28, 2003 2:01 pm

Can't you delay an action to shoot or attack someone or have I gotten that confused with D&D?

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Wed May 28, 2003 2:10 pm

You can delay your actions in that combat phase, but if don't use them in that phase then you lose them.

Of course, if you got the highest score there's nothing to stop you waiting 'til the very end of one phase, go then, and then take your regualr actions at the start of the next, in effect going twice straight in a row. But that doesn't really help here.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Sat May 31, 2003 7:34 am

If its the issue of 2 combatants with the same initative, its the higher reaction... if the reactions are the same, then its quickness... IF, in the super unlikely even that even the quickness is the same... well... I would just have both submit actions without the other knowing (or if its an NPC, make sure you as the GM firmy have the MPC actions planned prior to the PC actions) and have them happen at the same time.

For the "Shooting vs. Spell" issue... look at it this way. When your turn in the initiative comes up, its not like prior to and immediately after, your just sitting thinking "I have to wait my turn" The character is preparing their action/thinking of a course of action/assessing the situation/waiting for bullets to stop flying closely by so they can return fire/run/shit their pants/etc... So while the gunslinger may have been reloading and comes popping up from behind the desk, the spellslinger is coming around the corner, ready to sling the spell he's been casting for the last second or two..

I mean, IMO, breaking down the intitive turn even further than it already is is just asking for problems... Case in point, weapon speed in 2nd Ed AD&D... or the whole combat system for that matter...

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:50 am

Yeah, I'm beginning to feel the same way about most of it. However, I do still feel that the movement example I gave should be implemented - again not knowing if there are already rules covering this - so that someone can more realistically intercept someone and perchance have an action during the same round.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Sat May 31, 2003 9:21 am

The movement thing I *think * is addressed somewhere. Either that or its a house rule we use. Anyway, for Characters who get multiple actions per Init Pass, the moment is split evenly over each action (i.e. A character can move 15 meters, and has 3 actions, and hence, the character can move a max of 5 meters per action.)

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Sat May 31, 2003 9:22 am

Sorry... computer burped and double posted because I hit refresh. ::heads to Bulldrek for the ensueing beatings to commence::

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat May 31, 2003 5:12 pm

Longshot wrote:The movement thing I *think * is addressed somewhere. Either that or its a house rule we use. Anyway, for Characters who get multiple actions per Init Pass, the moment is split evenly over each action (i.e. A character can move 15 meters, and has 3 actions, and hence, the character can move a max of 5 meters per action.)

Just to clear up here, a character can only take one action per Initiative Pass. That's the whole point of going to the Initiative Pass in SR3 rather than Initiative in previous versions where a hopped up Sammy could act 3 times before a mage.

But yes, this rule is covered on p108 of SR3.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Sat May 31, 2003 11:25 pm

True... but if Sammy A has an init of 17, and Sammy B gets a 9.. ONe the first pass, Sammy A goes, then B. The second pass, Sammy A would act on 7, while Sammy B would sit there and be a bullet sponge. Now, if Sammy A wanted to move his full walking movement (which for example lets say would be 6), he would move 3 on the first pass, and 3 on the second... and then it would be the next round. That was more the point I was trying to make... sorry if I was unclear

Maelwys · Post by **Maelwys** » Sat May 31, 2003 11:39 pm

Longshot wrote:True... but if Sammy A has an init of 17, and Sammy B gets a 9.. ONe the first pass, Sammy A goes, then B. The second pass, Sammy A would act on 7, while Sammy B would sit there and be a bullet sponge. Now, if Sammy A wanted to move his full walking movement (which for example lets say would be 6), he would move 3 on the first pass, and 3 on the second... and then it would be the next round. That was more the point I was trying to make... sorry if I was unclear

Doesn't that penalize the faster Sam though? Sam A in this example is 6 meters from cover (we'll assume that both have 6 meters of walking movement). He moves 3 on this pass, and fires. Sam B goes, moves his 6 meters into cover, and shoots. Now, Sam B is screwed, as the first shot catches him out of cover. That makes sense. Sam A is also screwed, as he catches the shot aimed at him while he's still 3 meters out of combat. Because he can react faster, he's slower in movement?

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Sat May 31, 2003 11:53 pm

IN the example, neither Sam on the first pass is getting the benefit of ANY cover (other than movement), so while on the second shot, Sam A does now have the increased target number, he is getting a second attack, AND able to also make cover before Sam B gets off his next shot... Its not perfect, I agree. But, we really try to use the K.I.S.S. rule for combat, and this keeps the game flowing for us.