[SR] Can anyone identify these guns? (pics)
[SR] Can anyone identify these guns? (pics)
I was doing a few extra guns for the anime-to-Shadowrun conversion I had started a few years back when I fell upon this puppy from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. What's nice about the series is that, apparently, many of the small arms are based on real-life guns, which is what's pissing me off so much: it means I can find the real-life stats that much easier instead of having to make them up, but it also means I have to play "name that gun," a game I haven't played in two years.
I've seen this gun before, I believe it's either German or British, but I cannot, for the life of me, identify the manufacturer or designation of this weapon. Can someone give me a positive ID on this weapon and where I can find some documentation (preferably through a book or website)?
I just need some confirmation for this handgun. I believe it was made by a South African corporation named Vektor or somesuch. I know I saw this one in a gun shop once; their designs are pretty much unique.
This looks like a Russian Tokarev TT-33 or a Yugoslavian M70 (the copy). Just need some confirmation. (Yeah, I'm getting this one out of a book.)
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
- DrunkenMaster
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The first weapon looks alot like an H&K PDW. I've got a picture here of the H&K, the main differences are that the barrel is flush with the outer frame and lack of optics, but you can use your imagination.
H&K PDW
The second I'm pretty sure is a Vektor Pistol. In the picture, take a look at the bottom one.
Vektor 9mm CP1 Compact
For the last picture, I think it is a Tokarev too, specifically this one: http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/ga ... 0/2244.htm
If you don't get a satisfactory answer here for any of these weapons, I'd take your question to dumpshock and put it to the attention of Raygun.
Also, the here is a link to the main page where I pulled all those pictures. http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/all.htm
It has a variety of different weapons, many of them I'd never seen before. Hope this helps.
H&K PDW
The second I'm pretty sure is a Vektor Pistol. In the picture, take a look at the bottom one.
Vektor 9mm CP1 Compact
For the last picture, I think it is a Tokarev too, specifically this one: http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/ga ... 0/2244.htm
If you don't get a satisfactory answer here for any of these weapons, I'd take your question to dumpshock and put it to the attention of Raygun.
Also, the here is a link to the main page where I pulled all those pictures. http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/all.htm
It has a variety of different weapons, many of them I'd never seen before. Hope this helps.
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Heh. I'm just wondering just how good those Vektor handguns really are. Apparently, they've done something different with the barrel...
And apparently, there are a few guns I've missed. Wonderful. Some look like Tavors, some look like Kalishikovs and Galils. I'll see what I can come up with and have you guys grade the results, what do you say?
And apparently, there are a few guns I've missed. Wonderful. Some look like Tavors, some look like Kalishikovs and Galils. I'll see what I can come up with and have you guys grade the results, what do you say?
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
- paladin2019
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The first pic is an MP7. That is the designation the Bundeswehr gave H&K's PDW when they adopted it in almost this configuration. Check out hkpro.com for more info.
-call me Andy, dammit
Here's something I've been wondering, for those who know their Shirow. I know he's got a thing for caseless, but given the time period of his manga (I don't even know what years they take place), how many composite materials do you think are in his guns?
Also, just to verify, for urban combat, submachine guns not assault rifles, right?
Also, just to verify, for urban combat, submachine guns not assault rifles, right?
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Depends. Up until recently, I would say yes. However, the Marine Corp has just replaced all of it's MP-5 (9mm pistol round) with the M-4 carbine (.223 assault rifle round) for all Urban, police and anti-terrorist units. The old school of thought was that the 9mm wouldn;t go thru many walls and minimize the chance of any bystanders being hurt. However, when we switched the the M-4, the only reason I could ever get from anyone was simply, "Use this. We said so. We're taking your MP-5's away." Really kinda baffles me, as its just a version of the M-16 thats about 5 inches shorter with a telescoping stock, an accessory rail standard, and a full auto rate of fire.
Most civilian PD's, to my knowledge are still SMG, or a version of the AR-15 adapted to 9mm or .40 cal.
Most civilian PD's, to my knowledge are still SMG, or a version of the AR-15 adapted to 9mm or .40 cal.
Time is the fire in which we burn...I remain.
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Caz, LAPD upgrade their sniper weapons to H&K's. I forget which model..but its a fuckin NICE one, tho its since been replaced with a newer model.... Oh yeah... they also added a nice lil stash of armor defeating types of ammo to their armory... "just in case"
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M855 ball ammo, fired from the shorter barrel of an M4, is not stable enough in its flight path to penetrate modern construction materials at CQB ranges. At greater than 20-25 meters, however.... It still retains its lethality and armor penetration at all ranges.
a report
And local cops and sheriffs have had surplus M16's in their squad cars for 10 years.
a report
And local cops and sheriffs have had surplus M16's in their squad cars for 10 years.
-call me Andy, dammit
The length of the barrel on the M-4 has been tested and proven to not effect the accuracy or lessen the impact energy of the .223 round from what would occur with the M-16 A, M-16 A2 or the newer M-16 A4.
As for the penetration factor... I have personal experience that says otherwise from those test results. If what your saying is true, why will the same .223 penetrate a substance that is DESIGNED to disperse the kinetic energy of a round as it impacts it at ranges of 300 meters and more, while something that has little resistance to any kind of force placed on it (like drywall or vynil siding) will stop it at ranges of 25 meters? Wall penetration will occur. The amount of power the round has once it does so, while maybe not lethal anymore, will cause wounds.
As for the penetration factor... I have personal experience that says otherwise from those test results. If what your saying is true, why will the same .223 penetrate a substance that is DESIGNED to disperse the kinetic energy of a round as it impacts it at ranges of 300 meters and more, while something that has little resistance to any kind of force placed on it (like drywall or vynil siding) will stop it at ranges of 25 meters? Wall penetration will occur. The amount of power the round has once it does so, while maybe not lethal anymore, will cause wounds.
Time is the fire in which we burn...I remain.
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I saw a bit where even patrol cars now carry 'battle rifles', which makes me both happy, and a scared.Longshot wrote:Caz, LAPD upgrade their sniper weapons to H&K's. I forget which model..but its a fuckin NICE one, tho its since been replaced with a newer model.... Oh yeah... they also added a nice lil stash of armor defeating types of ammo to their armory... "just in case"
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Please provide a link to data that can be systemattically recreated rather than "personal experience." My experience doesn't include shooting people with M4s, so I reports such as this are the only planning considerations I can use.Longshot wrote:The length of the barrel on the M-4 has been tested and proven to not effect the accuracy or lessen the impact energy of the .223 round from what would occur with the M-16 A, M-16 A2 or the newer M-16 A4.
As for the penetration factor... I have personal experience that says otherwise from those test results. If what your saying is true, why will the same .223 penetrate a substance that is DESIGNED to disperse the kinetic energy of a round as it impacts it at ranges of 300 meters and more, while something that has little resistance to any kind of force placed on it (like drywall or vynil siding) will stop it at ranges of 25 meters? Wall penetration will occur. The amount of power the round has once it does so, while maybe not lethal anymore, will cause wounds.
-call me Andy, dammit
OK, next candidate. For those who've seen Spriggan, this is Col. Fatman's GE M134 Minigun!
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Type: MMG
Conceal: Hah!
Ammo: 30 (c)/belt
Mode: FA
Damage: 9S
Wt.: 15.9
Avail.: 18/30 days
Cost: 6, 250
S.I.: 3
Legal: 1-K
RC: 9 (3)
Cartridge: 7.62×51mm NATO. Length Overall: 800mm (~31.50"). Weight: 15.9kg (35lb); with power supply: 26.8kg (59lb). Barrels: 559mm (22"), 4-grooves, right-hand twist. Feed: 50-round detachable box, 4,000-round linked belt. Muzzle Velocity: 869m/sec (2,850fps). Cyclic Rate: ~6,000rpm. Operation: Externally-powered.
Design Point Value: 2,500
Firearm Construction Units: 0
Design Options: Ammo Load: Belt, Electric Ignition, Heavy Barrel, High Velocity Capacity, Improved FCU+2, Integral Recoil Compensation+2, Multiple Barrels+5, Polyresin Construction+1, Reliable+1, Weight Decrease-4
Modifications: Dikoted Firing Mechanism, High Density Bolt, Fore Grip, Hip Pad
Notes: Mass-produced military-grade heavy weapon; price lowered to balance with other medium machine guns. This weapon was created using Tzeentch's CC Redux; it is Reliable. The actual in-game weight of this weapon is 21kg (rounded down), though the GM may use the actual unloaded weight (16kg) if he so wishes. Because it uses electric ignition, special ammunition is required; this electronically-primed ammunition costs the same as normal ammunition but has an Availability code of +2/+0 for all variants. This ammunition cannot be used in conventional weapons, and vice versa. ("Electric Ignition," CC Redux)
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OK, I really did want to make this a LMG, but those have a barrel limit, so no go. MMG it is, somewhat plausible, considering Fatman's bulk. However, the weights didn't/couldn't match up, and the gun had a sky-high price (lowered because there's nothing sensible about a 12,500 nuyen MMG).
Thoughts?
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Type: MMG
Conceal: Hah!
Ammo: 30 (c)/belt
Mode: FA
Damage: 9S
Wt.: 15.9
Avail.: 18/30 days
Cost: 6, 250
S.I.: 3
Legal: 1-K
RC: 9 (3)
Cartridge: 7.62×51mm NATO. Length Overall: 800mm (~31.50"). Weight: 15.9kg (35lb); with power supply: 26.8kg (59lb). Barrels: 559mm (22"), 4-grooves, right-hand twist. Feed: 50-round detachable box, 4,000-round linked belt. Muzzle Velocity: 869m/sec (2,850fps). Cyclic Rate: ~6,000rpm. Operation: Externally-powered.
Design Point Value: 2,500
Firearm Construction Units: 0
Design Options: Ammo Load: Belt, Electric Ignition, Heavy Barrel, High Velocity Capacity, Improved FCU+2, Integral Recoil Compensation+2, Multiple Barrels+5, Polyresin Construction+1, Reliable+1, Weight Decrease-4
Modifications: Dikoted Firing Mechanism, High Density Bolt, Fore Grip, Hip Pad
Notes: Mass-produced military-grade heavy weapon; price lowered to balance with other medium machine guns. This weapon was created using Tzeentch's CC Redux; it is Reliable. The actual in-game weight of this weapon is 21kg (rounded down), though the GM may use the actual unloaded weight (16kg) if he so wishes. Because it uses electric ignition, special ammunition is required; this electronically-primed ammunition costs the same as normal ammunition but has an Availability code of +2/+0 for all variants. This ammunition cannot be used in conventional weapons, and vice versa. ("Electric Ignition," CC Redux)
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OK, I really did want to make this a LMG, but those have a barrel limit, so no go. MMG it is, somewhat plausible, considering Fatman's bulk. However, the weights didn't/couldn't match up, and the gun had a sky-high price (lowered because there's nothing sensible about a 12,500 nuyen MMG).
Thoughts?
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Drunkenmaster is spot on with IDing the weapons.
Ak404...smg's are not considered to be assault rifles. Smg's predominantly fire pistol rounds (although I can think of two that don't...Bushmaster and a H&K).
Longshot...the MP-5 is a great smg but there isn't anything wrong with the M-4. Reasoning...my guess is that somebody finally compared ballistics and said...gee the 5.56mm certainly is more powerful than 9mm Para. As for the LAPD going over to a H&K sniper rifle...biggest mistake that they could make...semi-autos are NOT as accurate as bolt action rifles and the mentallity of shooter having more rounds leads to sloppy shooting...end of story.
paladin2019...if you want to stand on the otherside of a residential wall whilst somebody shoots a M855 (which is an Armor Piercing ROUND) into that wall...well you are FAR braver than I. Read the report via the link you provided...about 80% of the information is correct...the other 20% is distorted. I do like the disclaimer at the end though...
"ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE."
There is that "Personal Experience".
All the best...
McKay421
Ak404...smg's are not considered to be assault rifles. Smg's predominantly fire pistol rounds (although I can think of two that don't...Bushmaster and a H&K).
Longshot...the MP-5 is a great smg but there isn't anything wrong with the M-4. Reasoning...my guess is that somebody finally compared ballistics and said...gee the 5.56mm certainly is more powerful than 9mm Para. As for the LAPD going over to a H&K sniper rifle...biggest mistake that they could make...semi-autos are NOT as accurate as bolt action rifles and the mentallity of shooter having more rounds leads to sloppy shooting...end of story.
paladin2019...if you want to stand on the otherside of a residential wall whilst somebody shoots a M855 (which is an Armor Piercing ROUND) into that wall...well you are FAR braver than I. Read the report via the link you provided...about 80% of the information is correct...the other 20% is distorted. I do like the disclaimer at the end though...
"ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE."
There is that "Personal Experience".
All the best...
McKay421
I am a co-conspirator in the events of my life.
By definition, all SMGs fire pistol ammunition. If it doesn't fire pistol ammunition, it's not an SMG. Period. FN and HK have both designed weapons that are intended to be used in the SMG role that fire non-traditional cartridges (5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm, respectively) that are more like very small rifle cartridges than pistol cartridges. These are commonly referred to as Personal Defense Weapons.mckay421 wrote:Drunkenmaster is spot on with IDing the weapons.
Ak404...smg's are not considered to be assault rifles. Smg's predominantly fire pistol rounds (although I can think of two that don't...Bushmaster and a H&K).
As far as I'm aware, Bushmaster has never made a submachine gun. Their forte is 5.56mm weapons, based at least in part on the AR15/M16. What you're probably thinking of is called the Armpistol; a semi-auto bullpup that fires 5.56x45mm ammunition, making it a short rifle. (Shadowrun's Beretta Model 70 in SSC.29 looks suspciously similar to it.)
Ballistics on paper have very little to do with it, especially when t comes down to the ambiguous "power" quotient. The simple fact is that more and more criminals are showing up wearing body armor. the 9mm Para cannot defeat most forms of body armor, which makes any weapon that fires it pretty useless as a tactical weapon. The 5.56x45mm will defeat everything up to NIJ level III, which is made up of rigid plates that aren't exactly easy to come by. Therefore, tactical teams are beginning to lean toward rifles (carbines) rather than SMGs as primary weapons.Longshot...the MP-5 is a great smg but there isn't anything wrong with the M-4. Reasoning...my guess is that somebody finally compared ballistics and said...gee the 5.56mm certainly is more powerful than 9mm Para.
Myth. A semi-automatic rifle can be just as accurate as a bolt-action rifle, especially when you're paying upwards of $10K for HK's PSG-1. A PSG-1 doesn't leave the factory until it shoots 50 rounds inside of an inch at 100 meters. That's far better accuracy than most off-the-shelf bolt action rifles. According to the FBI, the average engagement distance for police sharpshooters in urban environments in the US is 74 meters. The HK rifle is more than accurate enough. Not only that, but having the ability to fire follow up shots very quickly can be a very handy thing, especially if there are multiple targets.As for the LAPD going over to a H&K sniper rifle...biggest mistake that they could make...semi-autos are NOT as accurate as bolt action rifles and the mentallity of shooter having more rounds leads to sloppy shooting...end of story.
However, as far as I'm aware, LAPD/LA County snipers don't use HK rifles, at least not as a standard weapon. Most are going with custom rifles built on Remington 700 actions by a company based in LA called Tactical Operations. Their rifles are gauranteed to shoot a three round group inside of a quarter of an inch at 100 yards with proper ammunition. A person has to be incredibly well-trained in order to even use that level of accuracy. In other words, the rifle is, more often than not, more accurate than the shooter.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on that. I don't care if it's just plain old FMJ being fired. I'm not going to believe anyone who says the M855 "is not stable enough in its flight path to penetrate modern construction materials at CQB ranges." Not only is that not what the report said, it's not true at all. I've SEEN M855 puncture not only quarter inch plywood, but the 2x4 behind it holding it up and the other piece of quarter inch plywood behind that. Sure it lost a lot of energy in the process, but I'd still rather not be hit by it.paladin2019...if you want to stand on the otherside of a residential wall whilst somebody shoots a M855 (which is an Armor Piercing ROUND) into that wall...well you are FAR braver than I.
"may, depending on their construction..."R.K. Taubert wrote:If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance.
As for the M855 retaining its lethality and ability to penetrate armor "at all ranges", that statement is also false. Outside of about 150 meters (where the bullet drops below 2500 fps), the M855 bullet tends to stay in one piece rather than fragment, which is what makes the 5.56mm relatively lethal at close range, greatly limiting its wounding potential. Small bullet, small hole, less tissue disruption, less bleeding, less effectiveness. Dr. Martin Fackler has compared this type of wound to that created by a .22 Magnum. Pretty unlikely to stop a person in their tracks. However, the bullet will likely retain the ability to penetrate most body armor out to 650 meters, albeit while delivering a fairly easy-to-repair wound. But that's better than no wound at all.
Oh, it gets a lot scarier than that.
Shadowrun and Firearms
After reviewing my last post, I guess I should mention that Bushmaster's Armpistol is (or was) available as a select fire weapon (safe/semi/full). Being as small as it is, it could be used in the SMG role pretty well I suppose (if you like it loud), which is probably why Mckay assumed that it was an SMG. Semantics aside, it can be. Technically, it isn't.
Shadowrun and Firearms
After reviewing my last post, I guess I should mention that Bushmaster's Armpistol is (or was) available as a select fire weapon (safe/semi/full). Being as small as it is, it could be used in the SMG role pretty well I suppose (if you like it loud), which is probably why Mckay assumed that it was an SMG. Semantics aside, it can be. Technically, it isn't.
Again, I love the F2000. All I need to do is get a gunsmith to put a BF option on that, and I'm all trippy-happy.
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
DV8 wrote:You know, Raygun, I've been hanging around Dumpshock and Deep Resonance before that for quite some time now, and I only now realise what a deeply scary amount of firearms knowledge you posses.
Just realizing this now?
Cash:: "Raygun, I'm looking to get a pistol. What do you suggest?"
*describe what I like and what I'm looking for*
Raygun:: "Try these." *produces a list of 5 different pistols.*
And I'll be damned, if I didn't love the first one on the list (Baby Eagle)
<font color=#5c7898>A high I.Q. is like a jeep. You'll still get stuck; you'll just be farther from help when you do.
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