[God's Dice] Science & Technology

[Bethyaga]

Just a place to discuss science and tech and physics stuff about God's Dice.

For reference, the current God's Dice document can be found here.

My first thought is something that's been bouncing around in my head for some time. It occurs to me that knowledge of basic physics is well advanced in the 30th century. In elementary school, most kids should have a grasp of Newtonian physics that would put most 21st century adults to shame.

It's really a matter of necessity... when you live on a huge space habitat, and you can look out the window and see that your world is visibly spinning full circle every five minutes... when you can watch giant moons orbiting around Jupiter (which fills half your sky, BTW... your childhood questions suddenly move well beyond "Why is the sky blue, Daddy?"

But it was just such questions that inspired the following piece:

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[Elementary School Physics]

A basic grasp of Newtonian physics comes early to 30th century denizens of space. Evidence of physics in action are everywhere and impossible to hide from:

“Mom, why do Io and Jupiter spin around in the sky like that? It makes me dizzy if I stare at them too long.”

They’re not spinning, honey; we are. Lincoln is shaped like a giant wheel, and we stand on the inside of it, like this.

“Okay, if Lincoln is spinning, why don’t we fall when we get to the top?”

Because the spinning is what keeps us in place. It’s like this basket. If I turn it upside down, what will happen?

“All my cubes will fall out?”

Right—but watch what happens when I swing it in a big circle over my head. See? Even when the basket was upside down, the cubes stayed in. How come?

“The spinning?”

Yup—just like that. If you start something moving, it wants to keep moving in a straight line until something stops it. So when I swing the basket, is it moving pretty fast?

“Yes.”

And is it moving in a straight line?

“No.”

That’s right. I got it moving, and it wants to move in a straight line, but it can’t, because my hand keeps pulling the basket back in a circle. The cubes keep trying to move in that straight line away from me, but my hand keeps pulling the basket back against them. So as long as I keep spinning, the cubes are stuck to the bottom of the basket. Same thing with Lincoln—it’s spinning pretty fast (over 500 klicks where we are), so our bodies want to keep moving in a straight line away from the center, but the curved shape of Lincoln keeps it moving in a circle instead, holding us in.

That’s centripetal force.

“So if I was on the outside and let go, I’d just go flying off into space?”

If you let go—yes.

“Then why don’t the Spacers go flying off? I’ve seen them walking on the outside all the time.”

Well, for one thing, Spacers never let go. That’s what their tails are for. Plus, they usually have at least two safety lines that tie them to the hab as well.

“Well Mom, is Jupiter spinning then? Because it looks like it is.”

Yes—Jupiter spins. In fact, on the surface, Jupiter spins a heck of a lot faster than Lincoln does.

“Okay, then why doesn’t everything on Jupiter go flying off into space?”

Because Jupiter is big.

“I don’t get it.”

It’s called gravity. All physical things in the universe have mass—substance. Mass generates gravity, which is a force that pulls all other mass towards itself. So everything in the universe is pulling on every other thing out there.

“So I have gravity that tries to pull stuff towards me?”

Yes—all things have gravity. But gravity is so weak, that you can’t even notice it unless it comes from something very very big.

“Like Lincoln?”

No—not even like Lincoln. To have gravity you would notice, a thing needs to be really huge—like a planet or a star or a moon. The bigger the object, the stronger the pull. But then the pull of gravity also gets weaker as you move farther away.

“Well, we learned that Jupiter is the biggest planet in Sol System, so it should be pulling us in, right?”

Yes, Jupiter’s gravity pulls very hard on Lincoln, but we don’t ever fall and hit the planet, because we are in orbit.

“Huh?”

Let me explain: Remember what happens to something when you start it moving? What does it want to do?

“Move in a straight line?”

Right. So imagine that this big ball is Jupiter, and imagine that this is us flying sideways above it here. We’re moving pretty fast, so what does our ship want to do?

“Keep moving in a straight line.”

That’s right. But Jupiter has a lot of mass and a lot of gravity, so what does it do to our ship?

“Pulls it down?”

You got it. So let’s watch what happens: if our ship is going too fast, then Jupiter’s gravity can’t pull us down fast enough, and even though it bends our path a little at first, soon we are far enough away that we don’t feel its gravity anymore.

On the other hand, if we are moving too slow, then gravity pulls us down to Jupiter really fast and then…

“CRASH!”

That’s right—we crash into the planet. But look what happens when our speed is just right: gravity keeps pulling us down, so we never get away, but we’re going fast enough that we never quite fall into the planet either. As our path bends, we just make a giant circle going all the way around the planet over and over. That’s our orbit. And as long as nothing stops us, we can keep going like this for a long long time.

“So are Io and Ganymede and Europa all in orbit around Jupiter too?”

You bet—all the moons are.

“Then why don’t we all move at the same speed? You said we all have to move at exactly the right speed to stay in orbit. But Io doesn’t keep up with us. Sometimes it’s really close to Lincoln, and sometimes it moves way off or even goes behind Jupiter or something. Is Io going too slow? Is it going to fall into Jupiter some day?”

No honey—actually, Io is going a lot faster than we are, because it’s closer to Jupiter. I said you have to be at just the right speed to stay in orbit, but the right speed changes by how far from the planet you are. As you get closer to the planet, what happens to the pull of gravity from the planet?

“It gets stronger.”

Exactly. And if gravity is pulling down harder on us, then we need to be moving even faster to stay in orbit. It takes Lincoln almost nine hours to orbit around Jupiter, but Io is faster and takes less than 6½ hours to make the same trip. And the really close moons go even faster. Amalthea is very close to Jupiter, and it has to go so fast to stay ahead of Jupiter’s gravity that it goes all the way around Jupiter in just over an hour.

[Bethyaga]

Also a topic for discussion: Artificial Intelligence. What can AI do 1000 years from now, and what are its limitations? I have some ideas, but I'm tired right now. One more post and I'm going to bed.

[Bethyaga]

Last topic for today: Modifying people.

The way I see it, there are three ways of modifying a person.

1) Cybernetic mods. This is any cybernetic/implanted device. I imagine that in 2921, some of this still goes on, but it is for very limited applications. For major things (in most cultures) cyber mods are out of fashion.

2) Biotic mods. These are biological modifications made to your body--usually grown/regenerated from your own tissue--that make no change to your underlying genetic structure. You may well have a biotic third arm added, or biotic replacement eyes that see in the UV spectrum, or biotic lungs that can draw oxygen from a methane rich atmosphere; but none of these things affect your genetics. If you reproduce, you don't pass these traits on. Also, because they are artificially added, they are harder to maintain/repair if injured due to the high reliance on regenerative techniques in modern medicine.

3) Genetic mods. This is an alteration to one's genetic structure that is then, in one form or another, allowed to express itself. This is a risker and more complicated procedure, but it also produces permanent changes that are encoded in your genetic structure and can even be passed on to your children if you are still capable of breeding. Genetic engineering of one's offspring is the most common use for this technology, but there are retrofit capabilities that allow mature adults to use gen mods.

This is how I envision the various mods in my head, but I'm trying now to fish out unseen ramifications of these technologies or social and cultural/social factors they may affect them in certain areas. Are there other ways of handling mods?

[Cazmonster]

4) Psychological Mods. Intensive training and indoctrination designed to alter how the brain/mind functions.

(Damn, I've got more rattling around in my head, but all I can think of now are the Shaper diplomats from Schismatrix and the Bene Geserit)

[Bethyaga]

Psych Mods: me likee, Caz.

I would make them a little more subtle than the broad outline you give. Psych mods through clever pharmocological therapy. Or even better--can permanent attitude changes--permanent alterations in basic brain chemistry and structure--be achieved through virally induced modifications?

[Cazmonster]

There's no reason why a sculpted virus or nanomachine 'infection' could not rewire parts of the brain. Today, we've figured out how to help people out of depression by adjusting their neurochemical levels to compensate for relatively impermiable synaptic membranes or low neurotransmitter levels. A thousand years from now, they could alter those membranes and nt pumps as necessary for the development of a person.

[Kwyndig]

Also a topic for discussion: Artificial Intelligence. What can AI do 1000 years from now, and what are its limitations?

Everything that follows is, of course, my opinion, and does not accurately reflect on the current state of cybernetics and AI research except by coincidence.

Well, what sort of processing systems are we talking about here? Are AI software or hardware? Do they even exist, or is there some sort of 'conciousness limiter' or 'soul' which prevents sufficiently complicated networks and machines from achieving true AI?

Assuming AI is possible, are they natural (evolved), manmade (a sort of AI program or hardware), or a mix of the two?

A naturally evolved AI, all bets are off. The way such a mind would think is utterly alien to a biological entity, it would have completely different reference points and could use a system of logic incomprehensible to just about anybody else. An interesting theory would be that such an intelligence could only exist in a binary world of absolutes, and would thus be prone to psychosis when faced with the 'real' world outside of the computer networks. Of course, an 'evolved' AI could maybe learn to at least ape human behavior and thought patterns.

A manmade AI would be as smart as us, definately, assuming no major processing limitations, and it would at least pretend to think the same way we do. A 'super-human' AI, one capable of outperforming human thought in all ways, would have to be carefully controlled for anything other than brute force calculations, as its innate 'superiority' might lead it to lash out at organics via remote machines or information warfare (or its own body, if AI can fit inside a robotic or organic chassis).

A situation in which AI can be made, but also can evolve out of sufficiently complex systems, is a tricky one, so I'm going to skip it for now.

In any case, an AI would have a few innate limitations. AI, unless bound by random activation of specific subroutines, would tend to be less emotional than humans, assuming a specific emotion at perceived need. Also, AI might have little interest in things beyond their computer networks, possibly exihibiting a more evolved sort of the cyberchauvinism we sometimes see in modern human hackers, certain IT professionals, and cyberpunk enthusiasts. In addition, it is doubtful that AI could truly create, that random burst of inspiration is mostly likely the results of the more random and faulty nature of biological intelligence, although they may be able to come up with novel ideas by combining elements of existing ideas in a rational manner, which could, maybe, fool all of the people all of the time. Unless bound to a specific hardware system (much like Deus in SR originally was), AI are technically free from the limitations of simultaneity and mortality. Assuming enough resources, AI could easily spin off copies of themselves to perform specific tasks, integrating their memories back into a 'core process' when completed, essentially, The Computer would be everywhere. This process could also be used to create backup copies in the case of erasure or 'accidental death', allowing the AI to reboot from there with only minor loss of memory.

I do have one final thought on this subject: memory emulation, can AIs be copies (or the final result) of a human mind? Is such a mind really that person, or simply an elaborate simulation?

[Bethyaga]

I don't have time for a full reply, Kwyn, but you are thinking along the same lines I am.

I'm assuming that AI in God's Dice will come in two forms: Simulated AI and Organic AI.

Simulated AI is merely an extension of current processes and technology. By 2921, we have the processing power to create a nearly perfect simulation of intelligence. It is could for most purposes and will fool nearly all of the people all of the time. But in the end, it is ultimately just bits of data without true intelligence/creativity/emotion. It's advantage is that it is super fast and relatively cheap and may be reliably copied from one medium to another.

Organic AI is actually a true intelligence. "Organic" refers to the processes it uses, and not the physical material it is made of. To achieve true sentience, organic processes are used which create an artificial brain that functions very similarly to human brains. They have none of the advantages of Simulated AI, but they /are/ true intelligence. They interface with machinery better than humans, and they are much faster and more efficient than human minds (although not nearly so much so as simulated AI). But organic AI also needs to grow and develop, and cannot simply be created out of whole cloth like SAI.

The words aren't perfect yet, but I'm close.

So far, all AI is manmade. We have not seen mechanical intelligence "spontaneously evolve" except under conditions mankind has predetermined.

[Wildfire]

I know, I know, I'm throwing a huge wrench into the previous posts, but what about organic computing? AI by bio-neural chips and 'wet' components?

[Eliahad]

Here's a question, how gritty do you want the tech? Are these things sleek and svelt or Kind of clunky? I think I asked this before, but I can't remember the answer. And I don't remember reading it in the document.

[Bethyaga]

I know, I know, I'm throwing a huge wrench into the previous posts, but what about organic computing? AI by bio-neural chips and 'wet' components?

That doesn't bother me. The medium by which we do our computing is mostly irrelevant. However, if the computing is done in a qualitatively different way (as with current DNA computing), then that is something we have to examine the ramifications of.

The whole point of these discussions is to get something consistent. I want everything to work well together, and I don't want too many unexamined ramifications of new tech. My best example is still the Star Trek transporter technology: they added that to the show, because they didn't have a budget for shuttle landings every week. But no one ever considered how drastic transporters were. Proper use of that technology could have solved more than half their problems without breaking a sweat, but they rarely used it for more than getting to and from a planet's surface.

[Bethyaga]

Here's a question, how gritty do you want the tech? Are these things sleek and svelt or Kind of clunky? I think I asked this before, but I can't remember the answer. And I don't remember reading it in the document.

I don't know if I understand the question, but in my mind, most tech will be extremely slick. Look what we can do with technology today--in a 1000 years, it should just blow me away.

[Eliahad]

Ah, cool. *Shifts mindset to the left slightly*

The question was geared mostly towards the look of the ships, were we dealing with things with lots of curves, (like, for example, the Minbari from Babylon 5.) or big clunky things that had lots of sticky out bits, more like Old School Star Wars. I was picturing the second, more than the first, but that's easily adaptable

[Bethyaga]

Ah, cool. *Shifts mindset to the left slightly*

The question was geared mostly towards the look of the ships, were we dealing with things with lots of curves, (like, for example, the Minbari from Babylon 5.) or big clunky things that had lots of sticky out bits, more like Old School Star Wars. I was picturing the second, more than the first, but that's easily adaptable

Ahhhh... I get it. It will be a lot of both, based on species, culture, resources, etc. Anything build by the Sung will be all curves and organic flowing lines. The Sung are artists at heart. When I finally reveal the Chhar however, we'll see a culture of scavengers and brigands who rely heavily on cyberware and who would choose that bristly chunky look for their tech, because it's scarier.

[Bethyaga]

In fact, let me add to that that most habitats will be on the rough side. Many habs are built/carved from asteroids, and tend to be slapped together affairs.

[Cazmonster]

The other thing to think about with ships and habs is that there are going to be concerns with radiation. Except in the largest places, or those with some kind of active shielding, a good deal of solar radiation is going to get in, probably leading to mutations of all sorts, along with a cancer rate that would terrify us. Of course, medical tech, material and energy technology will lower these risks, but it will be a concern.

Aside - a busted elbow sucks ass for typing.

[Bethyaga]

What about placing true intelligence into ships and habs and other machines? We'll have the ability to do it. We can create machine intelligence to inhabit our stuff. Alternately, a sentient organic may choose to have his brain transplanted into a robot body or into a space cruiser or into his pickup truck. This is something that is possible and therefore will happen. What advantages or disadvantages does this create?

[Bethyaga]

And I brought this up on BDv0.2, but I don't think we ever fully addressed it:

What about gen modded animals. We can do anything with plants and animals. Anything. So what will we do? And more than that, what are our limits? After the whole Dog debacle, what are the ethics of mucking with animal intelligence? How do we draw the line between sentient and non-sentient species--especially when we have a species like the Dogs who have intelligent and non-intelligent members sometimes within the same family?

[Eliahad]

Clinical Immortality. People just won't want to die anymore. They'll get them selves uploaded into a robot, and poof they continue. Of course the Corps will love this and market it as much as they can. So who can put a price on a human lifespan. True, there are problems with wear and tear, but then, that's why they got uploaded in the first place. Overcrowding will become a very real, and horrible prospect. And stagnation of culture will also occur. People will remember the good old days, (I said this part badly, but don't know how to clarify at the moment) and strive that much harder to keep things the way they were, instead of allowing for newer concepts. This is, of course, not true for all things, Scientists may benefit from the possibility to continue their work long after natural death. But I still see this, cutlurally, as being a problem.

[3278]

Death won't have been an issue for a /long/ time now. In 1,000 years, it won't be any problem at all to grow you a new body and put your last stored brainstate in it. Most people with access would likely do a backup while they slept, so, say, every four or five days. Inworlders have access to fast enough machines to back up any time they have a spare few minutes and access to a terminal. Anyone with a high-speed shunt, of course, needs only access to a dataport to back up.

Now, this is what'll be true in 1,000 years, but a lot of things will be true in 1,000 years that aren't true in God's Dice. For instance, /everyone/ would have a shunt, and a wireless shunt, at that. But I'm not certain that clinical accuracy is the point.

[Bethyaga]

One of the basic tenets of God's Dice is that you cannot download or copy or transfer a true intelligence. So as far as functional immortality goes, you can live so long as you can keep your brain alive. For machine intelligences, this is no problem. But for humans and other organic sentients, this becomes much more complex and expensive as one gets older. There are plenty of drugs and treatments that prevent most normal aging and deterioration in the brain, but it's not perfect, and it is certainly expensive.

Without anti-aging treatments, the average human lifespan is probably 150. The "average" middle class person can probably live for 3 or 4 hundred years without much trouble, and the uber wealthy can probably stretch out twice that (or maybe more--no one's had a chance to test it yet, but we have a few dozen 600 year old geezers who are working on it).

[Wildfire]

Re computing, yes that's what I was thinking. Along with the genetic engineering going on, the creation and evolution of genetic computers, ones 'grown' over time, say your garden is also the mainframe, your bird a portable data storage unit that can load information to another network, whole custom organic computers sculpted to the ideas of the creator and doubling as people or plants or animals or whatever, some intellegent and some not.

Just a completely left field thought that has no basis in anything but my own mind

[Cazmonster]

Okay, brains in boxes. I just got through Dietz's Legion books and the cyborgs are just brains contained in armored support cases. The legionaires are incredibly powerful, considering thier military-developed Trooper II bodies. But they are also limited, they no longer smell, touch, taste or a hundred other things people take for granted. Also, because the brain in the box is so stable (no other organs around to muck the works up) a 'borg could expect to live for perhaps another 30% of normal longevity.

Also, McCafrey's Ship who Sang universe has shellpeople, folks who would not live otherwise installed in support coocoons and connected to starships, orbiting stations and the like. They're practically invulnerable behind layers of armor and have all the capabilities of their mechanical bodies. They also have impressive longevity.

[Cazmonster]

Is materials science advanced to a degree where a T-1000 is possible?

I was thinking that a dog-smart blob of polyalloy would be a damn useful tool to have around.

Heck, a rodent or lizard smart handful of volitional polyalloy would be the best tool you could ever have. You squeeze it or talk to it in a specific way and presto you have the exact tool you need.

[FlameBlade]

Now for some reason, I'm imagining multigenerational families. Say, 600 years old...lemme see...divided by 25 (approximate average age of generations)...lemme see...24 generations in one lifetime.

Whoa.

Also, consider this: this is what, 900 years after present Earth. 150 years old is possible, but very rare. 300 years old is very very very very rare and amongst uberwealthy, and I'd imagine there is perhaps...one or two 600 years old. Consider how technology will hit, etc.

[Bethyaga]

Now for some reason, I'm imagining multigenerational families. Say, 600 years old...lemme see...divided by 25 (approximate average age of generations)...lemme see...24 generations in one lifetime.

Possible, but rare. As education, prosperity and technology increase, birth rate decreases, and the average age for having a first child increases. These are seen in today's society, and are trends that would carry over to God's Dice--at least on Earth. But you're right--there would be some very very wealthy 600 year olds who have now devoted their whole life to tracking their descendants in the same way my grandmother devoted her declining years to tracking her ancestors.

Imagine being that old and having 300,000 descendants spread over 20 generations, 6 planets and 5 species.

I need to pop over to the politics thread now.

[FlakJacket]

What would education be like and how would the tech levels affect it? Are we still using the old fashioned school idea? And if so, with the prevelance of smart computers and tech, would home schooling be on the increase or would we still have a public system?

Could you literally just download information into your memory ala The Matrix, through cybernetic mods? How would people who were genetically modded to be smarter/faster learners/better data retainers fit in?

Just a wild idea, but with the genetic modding would you be able to be modded to know something or have certain skills? Kinf of be infected with knowledge- something that was tailored for your brain. And how would this compare to people that learnt it the hard way? You might know it, but you wouldn't have the same experience with it or of using it, possibly making it slightly less powerful to begin with e.g. in SR terms you might get it as Physics 5, but for a little while 'til you get aquainted with it, it works as only 3 or 4.

Or possibly a combination of all of them, but toned down so that you'd still get accelerated learning? Okay, enough of the babbling from me.

[Bethyaga]

I read a story like that once, Flak In it, people could subscribe to news services that operated by releasing viruses. The viruses were coded to "implant" specific information/memories into the brain, reproduce and harmlessly move on.

Seems like a cool system, but would only work most effectively in crowded settings. Also, the potential for [the memory-virus equivalent of hackers] to really mess with people's heads. You thought the virus protection for your PC was important? Imagine when you lapse on your head-security payments.

These are spectacular ideas, but do they fit God's Dice?

Basically, anything I add to the game needs to be cool and plausible and something that most players can wrap their heads around, but also it needs to be thought out enough and implemented in such a way that it doesn't complete upset the tech-heavy/darkish/space opera sort of tone I'm shooting for.

This sort of memory mod could well fit in the game, but only if one or more people are willing to sit down and really explore its possibilities and write up a treatment of how it would actually work.

[Bethyaga]

Okay, a couple of vague made up techno-babble ideas for the game:

Faster-Than-Light Communication (FTLC): The Israeli FTLC Net is what holds the entire Sol System together and allows it to function as smoothly as it does. Two centuries into the colonization of Sol System, Isreali scientists were able to generate and maintain a stream of psuedo-Chin-Einstein particles, more commonly known as peeker particles. Peeker particles themselves are unperterbed by most forms of matter or energy, and therefore the peeker streams that form the modern FTLC Net tend to be unaffected by the massive traffic that circles Sol. However, the energy arrays required to generate and detect peekers only operate well in a vacuum, meaning most of the Israeli FTLC hardware is either space based or contained in massive vacuum chambers. The beauty of a peeker stream, and thus its utility in FTLC, is that a change in any one portion of a peeker stream simultaneously affects all other portions of that stream. Therefore, if two stations form the ends of a stream, and if both know the starting configuration of that stream, then by changing information at one end, the receiver at the other end can interpret those changes for instantaneous communication, even over the vast distances of space.

To establish a single link in the FTLC Net, one station needs to broadcast a peeker stream to a reciever--this initial broadcast travels at light speed like any other signal. Once the receiving station has the signal, it calibrates and sends a reciprical stream back along the same line. When station one finally recieves the calibration response, then the two stations are linked and may communicate in real time. So for example, to establish a connection between Saturn and an inner system habitat would require 8 or 9 hours for the initial stream to travel from Saturn to the receiving station, and then another 8 or 9 hours for the calibration response to return. But once that is done, the two sides may transfer data instantaneously.

Once a stream is initiated, it can be easily maintained, even if the two ends are moving relative to each other, as long as both ends are aware of the other's position and maintains appropriate adjustments.

Energy: Where does all the energy come from to power a society as large as Sol's? Many sources. Good old fashioned solar energy is cheap and plentiful--especially in the inner system. Some energy can still be generated by ordinary chemical reactions (including combustion). On planets with atmosphere, aero or hydro power are both possibilities. Some habitats around Jupiter put themselves into elliptical orbits in order to generate energy as they pass in and out of Jupiter's magnetic field. Hydrogen is plentiful (gathered by skimmers running the top of Jupiter's atmosphere) and can be used in fusion reactors or just burned.

Most recently though (just 220 years ago), engineers discovered a way to harness Hawking-Cann forces for energy. The Hawking-Cann force can be generated in very specific environments created to resemble the early stages of our universe when the more traditional forces of today operated in a more unified fashion. The Hawking-Cann force was long thought to be just a scientific novelty, until Thayer Hamida and her team discovered that Hawking-Cann could be generated in two distinct "flavors" which they dubbed Hot and Cold. As it turned out Cold H-C could be used to contain and direct Hot H-C, thus finally making it practical as an energy source. Currently, Hawking-Cann generators are much too large for personal use, but as power sources for planets, habitats, and larger ships, they are ideal.

In the early days of Hawking-Cann generators, there was a slight but very real danger that the containment field would begin to "run Hot" resulting in an uncontrolled explosion converting anything nearby to energy or reducing it to component particles. This was known as "going Hawk," a phrase still in common use today for any venture that ends in spectacular disaster. There were four different ships that went Hawk in a 20 year period, and the phenomenon was most spectacularly seen in the disaster at Coplace, Europa. The entire submarine habitat was lost and stations on the opposite side of the moon reported cracking of Europa's icy shell.

A well known sonnet by a famous poet of the day tells a tale of unrequited love in which the whole of Jupiter goes Hawk and snuffs Sol like a candle.

[3278]

Interestingly, NASA is looking into a low-orbit version of God's Dice's 'lifters. We rule!