[D&D3e] Goofy Question

[Cazmonster]

Here's a simple question for the group:

Why do you not get to add your strength bonus to attacks with a sling?

It would seem to me (and it's this way in my campaigns) that since you power a sling with your muscles, you'd get bonus damage.

I don't think this would be overpowering, as sling damage is only d4 with a standard critical and the range is 50'.

[Ancient History]

I think the damage is more limited by the elasticity of the sling then the strength of who's throwing it.

'Course, those are itty-bitty rocks, too.

And crits happen! Look at David.

[Cazmonster]

Not a slingshot, a sling, like the kind that you whip around your head before flinging said itsy bitsy rock. (And more likely, itsy bitsy lead bullets)

[Lord Death Hand]

Yeah, like AH said. Look at David. He used a sling. At least that's what my bible says.

[Cazmonster]

Let's please not get into the religious debate again, the last one hurt my head.

All I want to know is why this perfectly good muscle powered weapon does not deserve a strength bonus in spite of its short range and low damage die.

[Salvation122]

I have an idea, but I need to develop it better (read: Diablo II calls.) I'll post in a moment.

[Ancient History]

Okay, I just looked and nowhere does it say you don't add your strength to the damage. Where are you getting this from?

[Cazmonster]

Wicked, Tricksey False Salvation.

We'll get him my pretty.

Cazmonster paws at his Obsidian Amulet of the Zodiac.

[Epsilon]

Page 8 of the DnD3E PHB states "You apply your character's Strength modifier to: Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon. (Exception: Off-hand attacks receive only half the Strength modifier, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength modifier. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow or a sling.)"

[Ancient History]

Well, fudge.

But on the Dexterity page, it says you apply your Dexterity modifier to all ranged weapons.

Which makes a certain amount of sense: the faster you sling the pellet, the harder it'll hit.

[Salvation122]

Okay. So, the damage a sling does is based on the momentum the bullet carries, right? Just because a person is /stronger/ doesn't mean they'll be able to whip the sling around /faster./ So since the damage isn't based on the character's inherent strength, but the momentum of the bullet, it's sorta silly to add a strength bonus to it.

[Eliahad]

Yes, AnHi but the Dexterity is only added to the attack roll, not the amount of damage dealt.

[Ancient History]

One more time: call me Ancient or AH or something.

AnHis and AnHis sound silly.

[Bethyaga]

Really? You don't like AnHi? AnHi kicks total ass as a nick. Shit, I'm stuck with Bethy... I'd kill to have a bad-ass name like AnHi for just a couple days.

Ancient is just too long, and I don't like initials, cuz they're not personal enough (which is why DV8 and VDL became Deev and Veed respectively).

So you don't like AnHi. I'll try to remember that in the future.

How about Annie?

[Wildfire]

Could be worse, we could call you Beth

[Bethyaga]

No. It could be worse, because you could call me Scooter McCootersnatch.

[FlameBlade]

How about TradeJack?

[Cazmonster]

Or Doctor Yaga...

[Adam]

Well, we could shorten it to Scoot McCoot. . .

[Cazmonster]

Nah, too Canadian.

In spite of good, logical evidence, Cazmonster will maintain Strength bonuses to Sling damage, but will modify it to half the Strength bonus.

[Ancient History]

AS long as y'all don't use my old KEEP nickname, I'm happy.

[Cash]

Can we call AnHi Scoot McCoot instead?

[Cazmonster]

Annie McCoot, daughter of that great troll Scoot McCoot, the only dweeb annoying enough to crash rpg.net and slashdot on the same day.

[Ancient History]

Actually, my worst on-line nickname was "Aunty H"

[Bethyaga]

I'll have you all know that Scooter McCootersnatch is my given Christian name, and I'm deeply offending by the mocking tone I sense here.

Now Aunty H... well that's just damn funny.

[CykoSpin]

The thing that gets me about slings is that they're considered a simple weapon that every character can use with proficiency. I just don't know about that. I was far better with a bow the first time I picked one up than I was with a sling after an entire day of practice. They should, realistically, be considered an exotic weapon proficiency; they are harder to use (accurately) than most people think, they are pretty damn unique in function, and they wouldn't find wide use in a medieval setting (at least not nearly as much as simpler throwing weapons or bows).

[paladin2019]

and they wouldn't find wide use in a medieval setting (at least not nearly as much as simpler throwing weapons or bows).

But, butt, but, what about Davidf? and Rome's slinger auxiliarys legions thingies? I mean, that's all you needfor a simple wepoan, rite?

[Eliahad]

No, Slings are broken because they only involve a strip of cloth and a rock. Now if they involved a 152 page rule book, plus some dice, then you'd have a /real/ weapon.

[Jestyr]

They may be listed as simple because they're simple to /make/, not to use. As I recall, the simple/martial/exotic divisions were based on the complexity of the weapon, and the technology required to construct it, not how easy it is to use.

I could be on crack, though, and I have no books handy to check in, so...

[CykoSpin]

Wow. Oozing sarcasm much, are we? I'm not even certain if those two comments (Paladin & Eli) are supposed to support any kind of counter-point whatsoever.

But, butt, but, what about Davidf? and Rome's slinger auxiliarys legions thingies? I mean, that's all you needfor a simple wepoan, rite?

Well, that would be an "Ancient Roman Empire" setting, wouldn't it? (and, no, that's not all you'd need)

My point (in case it has been missed by anyone) is that, while slings are extremely simple in design (and that is simply because they are a very ancient weapon), they require far more training to use with accuracy with than, say, a bow or a thrown spear. For more reasons on why I think slings are 'broken' in D&D, as well as relevant information as to why, I direct you to this page.

[CykoSpin]

They may be listed as simple because they're simple to /make/, not to use. As I recall, the simple/martial/exotic divisions were based on the complexity of the weapon, and the technology required to construct it, not how easy it is to use.

I could be on crack, though, and I have no books handy to check in, so...

...then again, the crossbow is listed as a 'simple weapon'.

[Jestyr]

Good point; by that reasoning, it should probably be listed as Martial. Okay, I'm on crack. In which case, yes, the sling should not be a simple weapon.

[paladin2019]

You had a reasonable theory, given that the Craft skill rules set DCs for making weapons by the weapon's category. Why a crossbow is two steps easier than a bastard sword in this regard....

[Cazmonster]

I'm going to stick with game balance. It does crap damage, has poor range and does not give you a strength bonus. The only good thing about it is that you can eventually zip multiple sling stones off in a round. Since its crappy in most applications, it's a simple weapon.

Most exotic weapons give you some nifty bonus and deserve to be harder to use. The only PHB exotics I can think of that aren't cool are the Monk weapons.

I honestly don't give a crap about real history when it comes to my D&D experience, all I really care about is game balance and internal consistency. If the Book sayeth "Slyngs be symple weapoyns, fore they sucketh muchly", I'm good with that.

[Wildfire]

I think it may be more a how simple to use, not how simple to use effectively. Most people could figure out how to use a sling or a crossbow if you just hand it to them, but bows and swords would need at least a small amount of explaination, things like exotic weapons would require a bit more (you're average person isn't going to have the slightest idea how to use nunchaku).

[Matt McS]

wildfire has it right. Crossbows, while intricate compared to a sling or club, is a simple point and shoot weapon, hence why it's a "Simple."

Ease of use determines what class it's determined. It can suck ass damage-wise and still be "Exotic." Monk Weapons being the great example. Other than Magic-Enhanced versions, I don't see the reason to even use Monk weapons after 5th level.

[paladin2019]

If they can't or would really rather not touch their target?

[Cazmonster]

Most exotic weapons give you some nifty bonus and deserve to be harder to use. The only PHB exotics I can think of that aren't cool are the Monk weapons.

Ease of use determines what class it's determined. It can suck ass damage-wise and still be "Exotic." Monk Weapons being the great example. Other than Magic-Enhanced versions, I don't see the reason to even use Monk weapons after 5th level.

Check the PHB again, the only ones that don't have big damage dice, or nifty things like reach, or wicked cool critical ratings, are the suck ass Monk weapons. And even Monks are going to use them for hitting creatures that do contact damage, or when they have yet to develop Ki striking abilities.

The writers made it difficult for most folks, aside from fighter types, to do massive damage in melee combat. Thus they created the Exotic Weapons.

[Anguirel]

Slings are easy to make, fairly quick to learn (a few days of practice) and certainly easy to use badly. They are also frequently mistaken for slingshots, which are about as simple of a weapon as you'll find...

After reading above linked article on slings... You might consider allowing an Exotic Weapon Proficiency for good-slinging with increased range increment and damage, along with penalties on the attack roll for using poor stones. All that said, though, I don't think it should get the strength bonus. Muscle, after a certain point, is used for tuning the distance and aim not increasing the power. Personally, if I were to learn any sling, it's be a staff-sling, though. Nothing like some lever-action to translate strength to speed...

[Ryan Murphy]

Most exotic weapons give you some nifty bonus and deserve to be harder to use. The only PHB exotics I can think of that aren't cool are the Monk weapons.

Ease of use determines what class it's determined. It can suck ass damage-wise and still be "Exotic." Monk Weapons being the great example. Other than Magic-Enhanced versions, I don't see the reason to even use Monk weapons after 5th level.

Check the PHB again, the only ones that don't have big damage dice, or nifty things like reach, or wicked cool critical ratings, are the suck ass Monk weapons. And even Monks are going to use them for hitting creatures that do contact damage, or when they have yet to develop Ki striking abilities.

And after they get ki strike, they can walk home content that their +3 Defending Shocking Burst *knuckles* will certainly be of use.

Oh wait. Forgot that part.

They don't have those

Sorry, but I thought some sarcasm would be an amusing way to state my point. No offense intended!

Seriously though, aside from bugging druids for magic fang spells, the old knuckles can't carry much firepower (magicwise) by the standard payload of equipment. However, using the magic item tables at the back of the DMG to make up some kick-ass gloves at comparable magic weapon prices would even things out a little bit.

However, black pudding will still have to be nunchukkued to death. Which is fine by me

Addendum: Oh yeah, monk weapons let you do damage of a type other than bludgeoning. Whee.

*PAID ADVERTISEMENT FORLobbyists for Aggrandizing Monk Equipment*

[Szechuan]

*PAID ADVERTISEMENT FORLobbyists for Aggrandizing Monk Equipment*

How long did it take you to come up with that?

[Ryan Murphy]

Truthfully? About 7 seconds. Aggrandizing took 4 of those seconds.

Yes, I do indeed rock.

[Szechuan]

Yeah. You do. :asleep

[Cazmonster]

Cazmonster clonks Murph on the head with a sling bullet and then janders off to see what people have said about psionics.