The Great WotC Cock-Tease

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:18 am

Okay, I'm what I'd like to consider a fairly intelligent chap. I knew that the low introductory price of the D&D3e books was just that, introductory. But what is the fucking deal with big fucking price jack-up!? It's like all publishers of d20 games are expecting everyone to bend over now because the new system caught on so well. That, and most of the new d20 games I've seen are crap (meaning that there are existing games with the same/very similar settings, but with much better rules, atmosphere, etc.). The only decently-priced d20 books I've seen since the first three core D&D books were released are the ones printed by SSS. Being a big fan of Ravenloft, this is definitely a plus for me.

The cause of this new d20-aimed rant is that I scooped up the new Epic Level book for D&D in the local bookstore and gave it a good perusin'. First off, any idiot can figure out the formula for experience-level requirements (level x 1000). It is easy from there to figure out what you need for levels over 20. Secondly, all you get for going over level 20, other than you're level-dependant abilities improving further, is bonus perks (I didn't check the prestige classes, but I'm currently using a non-class system, anyway). Thirdly, it's twice the price of the PHB, but yet is filled with Crap You'll Likely Never End Up Using™ goodness.

I'll stick with what D&D books I already own, and I'll continue to purchase the Ravenloft books, but other than that, I'm fucking finished with the d20. Selling out to WotC was the worst thing TSR ever fucking did.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:25 am

I guess I have always had a problem with TSR and D&D, whether it was WoTC or not. Trying to keep up with all the books they published was breaking my wallet. I gave up with 2nd Edition. It was just too damn exspensive. Sr can be exspensive but the system has remained relatively unchanged for the most part. For me D&D is just too damn big.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:37 am

I've never owned anything but the core rulebooks for any edition of D&D, and it plays just fine without breaking my wallet.
Seriously, though, the number of D&D books has always been insane, if you try to buy them all. Just avoid the non-core books like the plague, and it's just fine (wallet-wise and game quality-wise). The only non-core books I've purchased for 3rd ed are the class books, simply because the feat system is the tits, and having a greater and varied amount of feats to pick from is a nice commodity.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Fri Aug 23, 2002 6:32 pm

CykoSpin wrote:Selling out to WotC was the worst thing TSR ever fucking did.

You would have rather they continued on the downward spiral and gone bankrupt?

I agree that some of the WotC releases are overpriced, and also that introducing 3e at $20/book helps create the illusion that the $30-35 hardcovers are overpriced. However, looking at the books I brought home from GenCon . . . none of the hardcovers were less than $35, and two of them were $40.

BTW, when you say you're "finished with d20" - I don't even know if you're really started with d20. You're playing a nice shiny official WotC D&D setting, and it doesn't sound like you've branched out into the world of 3rd party d20 products at all - many of which are available at a price point below the typical WotC ones. If you're looking for quality d20 publishers, Green Ronin has a variety of stuff, including the very well done Freeport: City of Adventure.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 6:48 am

Adam wrote:BTW, when you say you're "finished with d20" ...

Actually, that should have said something more like, "I'll continue to get books for the Ravenloft setting, but I'm fucking finished with WotC, possibly d20 altogether." I was pretty tired when I typed that (I even typed "but other than that" twice - I edited that out a few minutes ago).

I agree that some of the WotC releases are overpriced, and also that introducing 3e at $20/book helps create the illusion that the $30-35 hardcovers are overpriced.

Actually, I don't think $30 is too much at all; it's just what I would expect ($35, maybe $40, if it's rather large and/or has more than the usual amount of useful stuff in it).
I've checked out a handful of some of the different d20 settings, and they were all either over-priced (like Forgotten Realms and Spycraft), and/or I found them unappealing (at least to a degree that I wouldn't pay $35+ for them).

Also, I consider a product over-priced if it's cost isn't proportionate to it's usefulness. For instance, a location guide (a book devoted to the in-depth description of a single location), first of all, shouldn't be too big (I may want to know about a place, but for fuck's sake, they should leave room for imagination; it's why these games exist). Secondly, keeping in mind that they shouldn't run to large, they should never cost more than $20, $25 tops (if they cover a large area, like Shadows of North America).

I did see Freeport, by the way, but it just looks like a large, over-priced location guide to me.

Campaign books (the kind that provide in-depth coverage of a setting, but require you to already own the core books) shouldn't run over $30. You've already (presumably) spent $60 (or whatever) on the core books, so a lot of shit can safely be cut out of those books, reducing the size, reducing the cost. You know, "trim the fat", as it were. What I look for in an "add-on" book is everything I need to run the campaign setting, but nothing I don't.

An example of what I consider good pricing on RPG books: Deadlands. That game, in my opinion, gives you the most bang for your buck (if you like "Old West" settings, at least). $25 for each core book (Player's and GM's), and $20 for expansions/sourcebooks (each of which is filled to the fucking brim with terrific material). Shadowrun comes close, but what Paul said about D&D earlier holds truer to SR; seeing as how rule updates are contained within the expansions, you miss out on quite a bit without them.

{monetary units are in $US, because it's easier, and because I can

}

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:05 am

CykoSpin wrote:Also, I consider a product over-priced if it's cost isn't proportionate to it's usefulness. For instance, a location guide (a book devoted to the in-depth description of a single location), first of all, shouldn't be too big (I may want to know about a place, but for fuck's sake, they should leave room for imagination; it's why these games exist). Secondly, keeping in mind that they shouldn't run to large, they should never cost more than $20, $25 tops (if they cover a large area, like Shadows of North America).

Reality: $20 is a pretty low price point now, and it's hard to make money. It's easy to say "they should never cost more than x" when you're a consumer - hey, everyone wants to get the best bang for their buck. The buck just doesn't go as far as it used to anymore. [Not that I think the overall quality of RPG supplements has gone /down/ in the last 10-20 years.]

I did see Freeport, by the way, but it just looks like a large, over-priced location guide to me.

Well, it was large, but based on the size and the quality I don't see it as being over priced at all. However, since you're not interested in location books I can see why you wouldn't like it.

An example of what I consider good pricing on RPG books: Deadlands. That game, in my opinion, gives you the most bang for your buck (if you like "Old West" settings, at least). $25 for each core book (Player's and GM's), and $20 for expansions/sourcebooks (each of which is filled to the fucking brim with terrific material).

The only Deadlands book I have on hand was one produced right after PEG un-merged with Cybergames, and I haven't had chance to read it all yet, so I'll hold comment on my overall opinion of Deadlands books as I'm not near the main books to check up on some things. Deadlands was an amazing hit when it was released and that allowed it to break some conventional rules, certainly.

Shadowrun comes close, but what Paul said about D&D earlier holds truer to SR; seeing as how rule updates are contained within the expansions, you miss out on quite a bit without them.

That's a trend I'm not too fond of either. However, it does seem to be something that, industry-wide, pushes sales.

After reading your whole post and the oriiginal a couple of times, I'm still not really sure what sort of material you're interested in and how you think it should be presented and at what price point, aside from the aforementioned campaign-level products.

Cipher · Post by **Cipher** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 5:11 am

Anyone who buys more than the three core rulebooks for D&D 3rd edition is a soulless tool of The Man, or an overworked corporate shill who doesn't have the time to home-brew their own setting.

Forgive me for being redundant; it's late and I'm tired.

Threadbare · Post by **Threadbare** » Mon Aug 26, 2002 7:46 am

I kind of enjoyed Spycraft. The rulebook for that is fairly utilitarian, and can be used pretty well for cinematic spy type stuff.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:42 am

Threadbare, I agree with your assessment of Spycraft's attributes and dislike it for exactly the reasons you like it. One of those things that reflects personal ideas aboutwhat a "spy" game should be, I guess. And for all the stat-nazis out there, me included, there were far too many major errors in the gun guide for me to recommend it to anyone.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 4:02 am

The thing that turned me off to Spycraft (aside from the price), was when I opened it and checked out the character creation section. All that came to mind was "Holy fucking high stats, Batman!"; if I remember correctly, all the attack and save bonuses seemed a tad higher than similar characters from other d20 games, plus each class seemed to have a top-to-bottom list of bonus special abilities. Also, being the gun-bunny that I am, I also hated the firearms guide.

Speaking of firearms, if you want a good "gun-guide" for d20 games, the one for Delta Green is terrific. However, it's located in the main book, which is $28, and it's for the original CoC system, but they do fit quite nicely with d20 (even using the default stats) and I have yet to see a more reality-reflective list of guns for an RPG.

Bethyaga · Post by **Bethyaga** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:28 am

Kenneth Hood offers some very good free d20 supplements on his website:

http://www.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com ... nloads.htm

I've heard very good things about his d20 firearms rules. I've not checked them out myself, but they're worth a look. I like a lot of the other stuff he's done.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:25 pm

Bad Bethy Bad linkage! No Allison Hannigan/Laura Prepon lesbian porn for you!

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:42 pm

Try clicking here for the site, works without all the crap bulldrek adds to web addresses.

Bethyaga · Post by **Bethyaga** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:27 am

FlakJacket wrote:Try clicking here for the site, works without all the crap bulldrek adds to web addresses.

Thank you Flak.

Bad Bulldrek! BAD!

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:45 am

I have to say, I LOVE the gritty rules on that guy's site. Hello Dark Future gaming.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:00 am

Fuck yeah!

His GnG combat rules are the best damn d20 supplement I've seen yet!
However, the firearms supplement is just so-so, in my opinion.

The Great WotC Cock-Tease

The Great WotC Cock-Tease

Re: The Great WotC Cock-Tease