Review for [Promised Sands]

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:19 pm

DV8,
After a quick bit of research on Al Qadim and Dark Sun...

They are similar in that they are both dealing with desert/wasteland environments and that there is an "arabic influence" in each of them. Al Qadim seems to go the "traditional arabic" route and appears to be pretty accurate historically and according to mythology and legend. Dark Sun seems to only pay slight homage to arabic influences.

Dark Sun does have a "magic drains life away" element that bears a small resemblance to the way Ido struggles with Qai for power on T'nah. However, Qai (the raw power of life and creation itself) isn't represented in Dark Sun from what I've seen.

Promised Sands also has a sci-fi element that is missing from both of those games. The Wet Denizens--who fled from the surface thousands of years ago to domed cities beneath the seas--are returning and bringing technology back with them.

Mechanically, it has been compared to In Nomine because of the D%/D10 method of rolling for Success and Effect. There are some apparent similarities and I must locate a copy of In Nomine to see how they do it.

I understand that Dark Sun is out of print. Anyone know where I can get a copy?

(Yes, WotC announced at GAMA (shortly after their head of all RPGs busted my chops for 20 minutes and grilled me about Promised Sands) that they would be re-releasing Dark Sun "in the near future". Interestingly, all of the people from the WotC booth came to visit BBRACK Productions at GAMA--most of them were very interested and had extensive talks with us.)

Distribution
A year ago, I was asked who our distributors were--and I had none in our "stable" then. Here is the current list:

ACD, Alliance, AAAAces, Centurion, Esdevium (UK), Hobby Games (UK), Lion Rampant (CANADA) and RPV.

We are carried through Impressions Advertising and Marketing--who is currently waiting for a few more orders. He gave me their names, but I can't announce them until they have actually placed the orders.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:41 pm

I understand that Dark Sun is out of print. Anyone know where I can get a copy?

I just checked eBay. There's a lot of Dark Sun material still floating around.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:51 pm

Cazmonster smilingly remembers half giants and needing to make up multiple characters, because he knew he was going to die.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:14 pm

DV8 wrote:
I understand that Dark Sun is out of print. Anyone know where I can get a copy?
I just checked eBay. There's a lot of Dark Sun material still floating around.

Only one auction seems to have what I'm looking for--the basic setting books. I'll keep my eyes peeled, though, thanks.

Most of the material on eBay was the old SSI PC game "Dark Sun: Shattered Lands".

Is this the setting with "kender"? Or is that Dragonlance?

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:19 pm

Kender are in both - little cannibalistic claw machines.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:22 pm

Cazmonster wrote:Kender are in both - little cannibalistic claw machines.

Well, someone asked if we had "kender" in our game and I wasn't sure where they were from, so they said, "small elves that steal". We have races/cultures that could easily create such a thing.

Cannibalistic? In a world of dwindling resources? Hell yeah! Claws? Oh, so you have some Djezinti blood in you, do you? ("Claws" is an Asset available for anyone--you just need the story to explain why you have them...)

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:46 pm

I hated the little bastards in Dragonlance and Oh god, did I hate them in Dark Sun. I think somebody at TSR had compromising pictures of Gygax to keep them in not one but two settings.

Szechuan · Post by **Szechuan** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:34 pm

I'd like to pop in briefly and mention that regardless of how much you piss me off, Evan, I found the game very interesting, and plan on looking into it further as soon as I can.

Kudos on getting this thing out the door, and hopefully you guys will prosper.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:41 pm

Szechuan wrote:I'd like to pop in briefly and mention that regardless of how much you piss me off, Evan, I found the game very interesting, and plan on looking into it further as soon as I can.

Kudos on getting this thing out the door, and hopefully you guys will prosper.

Thanks, Szechuan.

By the way, we're working feverishly to get the first supplement Rumors of War released in time for GenCon. I just got the quotes from the printer, we're compiling the material together. Layout and artwork should hit simultaneously. Editing is almost finished.

Rumors of War will be about a 200+ page world/sourcebook. More information as we have it...

...Caz, you going to GenCon? If you are, would you be interested in trying to change my opinion of D20?

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:54 pm

EvanMoore wrote: ...Caz, you going to GenCon? If you are, would you be interested in trying to change my opinion of D20?

So long as you don't actively try to screw it up, sure. I ran at Oddcon with these two pinheads who said they had a better homebrew than D&D and wasted two hours of my time screwing around.

I will be there. I'll most likely have some stuff ready to run for folks.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:15 pm

I'd be quite interested to know where you think my "perceptions on the gaming industry have been very skewed in the past" and exactly what "faulty decisions" have been made. I respect your knowledge of the industry and would sincerely like to know what you think.

Well, it's back in that Old Thread you've since disavowed, but I did say *in the past*. To wit, back in those days you displayed an apparent ignorance of the nature of most gaming companies; you appeared to believe that most major game companies were oppressive corporations rather than hobby-ish enterprises run by keen, keen gamers. You made it sound as though you thought your company was different because you were all about the game first and the business second, and at the time I recall telling you that actually, that /wasn't/ the case at all. Hell, if more game companies were oppressive corporations, we'd probably have less folding.

As for the 'faulty decisions', that was an extrapolation based on your lack of familiarity with the industry (a statement as in "if your toe is broken, you may have had problems putting your shoe on that morning"). I can only think of one instance off the top of my head, since I've largely been uninvolved with the development of Promised Sands. As for that one instance, I'd rather not cite specifics or name names, as it wasn't something I was involved in personally.

I wasn't specifically. You defended something he said at the beginning of your post--and I was referencing that "defense" you made of him. Here it is:

Jestyr wrote: Just a couple of points: (and, like Adam, I haven't made any comments yet since I haven't seen anything beyond chunks of the free PDF).
That was where I was referencing you "coming to his defense".

Ah; misunderstanding. I said "Like Adam, I haven't done XYZ" - I was clarifying I'd done the same thing as him in a particular circumstance. That seems leagues away from 'coming to his defense'. (Not that I wouldn't, if I thought it was warranted, but he seems to have ably clarified his response to your concerns himself.)

And here's where I get slightly less civil: you're accusing Adam of twisting *your* words, but look at how you describe your working history with him, compared to how he describes it. He says he checked to see if he was on the comp list; you say he 'begged for a free copy'. If that's not twisting words, I don't know what is.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:47 pm

Cazmonster wrote:
EvanMoore wrote: ...Caz, you going to GenCon? If you are, would you be interested in trying to change my opinion of D20?
So long as you don't actively try to screw it up, sure. I ran at Oddcon with these two pinheads who said they had a better homebrew than D&D and wasted two hours of my time screwing around.

I will be there. I'll most likely have some stuff ready to run for folks.

Caz,
I will not actively try to screw up your game. I would consider that incredibly rude. Mind you, I realize that you probably don't think that means much to me--but it really does. I will accord you the same respect that I would look for in others if I were GMiing a game. That being said, expect wisecracks, bad jokes, puns and laughter (even if it's not all that funny)... But, that's just me.

Jestyr wrote: you appeared to believe that most major game companies were oppressive corporations rather than hobby-ish enterprises run by keen, keen gamers.

I've learned a lot since then. That was before my first GAMA, my first Origins, and my first GenCon. It ws before Mike Willians of Living Room Games took me under his wing and educated me. It was before Todd Liukart and GMS busted my chops a time or two (dozen). Not to mention that investing nearly every dime of my retirement funds in these endeavors (on this, you are free to ridicule me for my ignorance) and two years of nearly every moment of free-time--I've learned. A lot.

Jestyr wrote:As for that one instance, I'd rather not cite specifics or name names, as it wasn't something I was involved in personally.

PM me with it? If I've made an error, I'd like to learn from my mistake rather than repeating it through ignorance.

Jestyr wrote:And here's where I get slightly less civil: you're accusing Adam of twisting *your* words, but look at how you describe your working history with him, compared to how he describes it. He says he checked to see if he was on the comp list; you say he 'begged for a free copy'. If that's not twisting words, I don't know what is.

Yep. I twisted his words, too. No excuse for it. I was annoyed and I let fingers do the walking before I engaged the common-sense circuitry. I shouldn't have described it as such.

I'm sorry.

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:56 pm

Cazmonster wrote:I hated the little bastards in Dragonlance and Oh god, did I hate them in Dark Sun. I think somebody at TSR had compromising pictures of Gygax to keep them in not one but two settings.

Now, now. Let's not malign my babies. "Elves that steal" is not fully accurate. Kender borrow, protect, hold onto stuff. They don't steal. Why, thieves are bad and any good kender would be insulted if you called him a thief. Oh, by the way, you left this ring on the counter last week and I was just holding onto it so someone wouldn't decide to steal it.

As for Promised Sands, I'll reserve judgement until I see and read it.

Bethyaga · Post by **Bethyaga** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:00 am

Kwyndig wrote:Evan here and his book have annoyed me since day one, I'm not quite sure I can pin down why.

Let me see if I can help:

When Evan first brought this game concept to Bulldrek, it was very specifically with the attitude that he was creating the next big thing and that he was offering us a huge opportunity and that he clearly knew more about all things gaming than the rest of us did. That may not be what he meant, but it is how he came across, and it pissed off many many Bulldrekkers. He vaguely hinted at "secrets" of successful games that he had found in his research and how he was constructing this new game around these secrets as if strategically putting together a boy band or something. This was all in his first thread and it didn't sit well with many.

Since then, Evan has shown that he is hard-working and very dedicated to this project. He has apparently discovered some humility along the way, and from what I hear, he and his team have created a product that will be well-received. His opening post can be chalked up to naivete, overconfidence and a wild exuberance for his baby (and his naturally overbearing online persona). I hope that Evan does well with this. From what he has described, I fear he may have over-extended himself in some ways, but I wish him well. Any ill will I may have for him at this point stems solely from my pure jealousy. I wish I could be looking at the publication of my own hard-bound fully realized world. The Promised Sands setting may not be my own style, but there's a large market out there for it. I hope Evan meets up with it.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:12 pm

Cash,
Thank you. I hope you find Promised Sands enjoyable. I'd love to show it to you at Origins or GenCon if you go.

Bethy,
Thank you for your words. Any time you're interested in "playing" in the Promised Sands universe, you're welcome. I know you are a very busy man with a real life, a family, etc.--but I've also read your work and I would be honored if you'd like to muck around with what I've created.

Consider this an open invitation. I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say after looking over/reading through Promised Sands.

Caz,
You are also more than welcome to jump in with both feet (that is your usual style, isn't it

).

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:43 pm

And the first review [that I've seen,] is in: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9428.phtml

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:41 am

Very...descriptive and well-written review. Now I have an idea what to see from Promised Sands itself...

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:32 am

The job-class thing doesn't bother me, but the language would annoy the hell out of me, unless it's not as prevalent as the reviewer portrays it. I'll look it up; the setting seems interesting, if nothing else.

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:39 am

setting seems interesting, but what's interesting...the reviewer mentioned very little about setting itself...

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:19 am

There is now a reply to the review from the President of BBRACK Productions.

I am also told that another reviewer will be posting another review to RPGnet in the next "2 to 3 weeks". Apparently, the new reviewer has a standard policy of playing three "significant" gaming sessions with the products that they review.

I would imagine you'll have more "meat" to the coming review due to the playtesting.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 11:21 am

Is there a reason why you refer to yourself as 'The President of BBRACK' rather than just saying 'I responded'?

No threat of condemnation or nothin'. Just curious.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:34 pm

I think he might want to distance himself from the response to the review, so that some people who have proven it very hard for themselves to seperate their opinion of the game with their opinion of Evan himself not to do the same thing with the reply to the review.

Perhaps I'm seeing things.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:46 pm

Ok, I thought he wasn't actually heading up the company, this was just his baby. I'm very confused.

Oh, well. Since I haven't responded to this already, congratulations.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:19 am

For the record, "Evan Moore" is not officially associated with BBRACK Productions.

Willy Gilligan,
Thank you.

Bethyaga · Post by **Bethyaga** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:07 am

For the record, "Evan Moore" is not officially associated with BBRACK Productions.

Maybe so, but the same individual is responsible for everything produced by both of them.

Sorry about the review though, Evan. That sucks. The people who played my game adored it and there's at least one ongoing campaign I'm aware of, but it doesn't change the fact that the game is an obvious first effort, and the reviews reflected that... painfully so. Oh... Lord knows they had plenty of nice things to say as well, but ultimately, they were mostly dismissive. I don't wish that on anyone.

But I learned a lot, and my next efforts will be the better for them. With the number of supplements you plan to get to, maybe this will give you food for thought.

EvanMoore · Post by **EvanMoore** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:04 pm

Bethyaga wrote:
For the record, "Evan Moore" is not officially associated with BBRACK Productions.
Maybe so, but the same individual is responsible for everything produced by both of them.

I neither confirm nor deny that statement. No comment :cool

Sorry about the review though, Evan. That sucks. The people who played my game adored it and there's at least one ongoing campaign I'm aware of, but it doesn't change the fact that the game is an obvious first effort, and the reviews reflected that... painfully so. Oh... Lord knows they had plenty of nice things to say as well, but ultimately, they were mostly dismissive. I don't wish that on anyone.

But I learned a lot, and my next efforts will be the better for them. With the number of supplements you plan to get to, maybe this will give you food for thought.

Yes. We have learned. Sadly, much of what was said, we determined already toward the end of the production (after having learned a lot) and chose to go through with production anyway rather than spend another six months (which means another year for marketing) making changes.

The next books and products will be much better. We have learned.

There are many things to take into consideration with the review that was posted. Thankfully, the next review will not be so scathing. (And I really shouldn't typify this review as "scathing"--it is "average". Taken into consideration that this is "average" as compared to ... WotC, FASA/FanPro, Wizkids, AEG, SJGames, Etc.

I'll take "average" for our first product! Yeah!

Of course, the next products will be even better...

...and Promised Sands 2nd Edition will be even better, too.