[Shadowrun] Survival of the Fittest blunder? [Spoilers]

Toryu · Post by **Toryu** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:48 pm

While reading the opening chapter of SotF, a few things struck me as odd and somewhat conflicting with canon Earthdawn knowledge, so I reread the ED Dragons book. Here's the scoop.

SotF clearly stipulates that whoever has the Jewel of Memory gets to be Loremaster.

In ED Dragons, Mountainshadow (aka Far Scholar, Master Speaker, Dunkelzahn) is the Keeper of the Jewel of Memory, but yet it is Vasdenjas (aka Eater of Cities, Talespeaker) who is Loremaster of Barsaive.

How can that be? This discrepancy would make SotF's original plot idea kinda moot.

(I have my own thoughts on this, but would first like to hear from you what you think of this.)

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:56 pm

I have no idea what "Survival of the Fittest" is. However, keep in mind that the ties between ED and SR were quietly severed. Or at least never spoken of again. I seem to recall that Mike Mulvihil (sp?) didn't like the connection for some reason.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:05 pm

Because Vasdenjas bites the big one and the Great Dragons fight over his hoard.

Obviously, Dunkelzahn wins and becomes Loremaster. Duh.

Toryu · Post by **Toryu** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:06 pm

True. But bear in mind that both Steve Kenson and Rob Boyle, authors of SotF as well as co-authors of ED Dragons, deliberately chose to use and expand on existing ED/SR ties.

Maelwys · Post by **Maelwys** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:08 pm

Well, I'll toss out the first few ideas, that we've mention on idc.

My first thought...Someone just didn't read the ED stuff already published. (Which is reasonable, since it isn't their game, so may feel that the two worlds don't have to exactly mesh). My thoughts on that? Damn them

Second Thought...Vasdenjas isn't the Loremaster Loremaster...he's one of the regional ones, while Mountainshadow is the Head Loremaster of all Dragons, and thus feels above talking to most Name-givers, leaving that to Vasdenjas, who has several books to his credit in the Throalic Library.

Third...Well, it's possible that this change has occurred from the time of Vasdenjas and the time of Survival of the Fittest, but that indicates a rather...substantial change in Dragon culture in less then 2000 years.

Personally, I think it's a screw up, heh

Also
http://forums.dumpshock.com/default/forum.jsp?forum=136
has a few discussions on this topic.

Personally, I'm really iffy on the idea that the next Loremaster can be choosen on who has the best Street Sam or Thief Adept.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:15 pm

MooCow wrote:I have no idea what "Survival of the Fittest" is. However, keep in mind that the ties between ED and SR were quietly severed. Or at least never spoken of again

In both cases, you are incorrect.

See http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/book/faq.shtml:

What is the relationship between Shadowrun and Earthdawn (now licensed to Living Room Games)? Will the storylines still be linked even though the games are now produced by different companies?
We won't deny that the Shadowrun and Earthdawn storylines have been linked in the past (in the cycle of magic, Earthdawn is the Fourth World and Shadowrun is the Sixth World). While FanPro will not ignore these links, we have no intention of making them a primary focus of the game. The FanPro Shadowrun and LRG Earthdawn developers have a good working relationship, and will make every effort not to conflict or contradict each other's storylines.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:18 pm

So I am. Well that's good to know.

Maelwys · Post by **Maelwys** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:23 pm

Ancient History wrote:Because Vasdenjas bites the big one and the Great Dragons fight over his hoard.

Obviously, Dunkelzahn wins and becomes Loremaster. Duh.

Except Mountainshadow has the Jewel of Memory before Vasdenjas dies.

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:28 pm

So make it "The one with the Jewel is next in line to become Loremaster. It is frequently passed on prior to dying, but this is not a requirement. Should the present Loremaster die, the first to obtain the Jewel becomes the new Loremaster."

Does that essentially fit everything? Or is this someone trying to drop another dragon's status as Loremaster by swiping the Jewel?

Secondary Method: The Jewel takes time to unlock. Once you have unlocked all of its secrets, you maintain the title of Loremaster until death.

lordhellion · Post by **lordhellion** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:41 pm

Being the Loremaster of Barsaive (as Toryu mentioned in the opening post) means absolutely bumpkiss. Barsaive is simply a region in the world, like Thera, which, for the money, was much more important than Barsaive at the time. Barsaive was just the collection of rebellious miscerants that were, for the mostpart, against Theras attempted domination of the world. Being Loremaster of Barsaive just makes Vasdenjas the local librarian; probably an intermediary to Mountainshadow, or maybe just the poor slob stuck with chronicaling the happenings in Barsaive so he could report them to Mountainshadow.

Maelwys · Post by **Maelwys** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:42 pm

Anguirel wrote:So make it "The one with the Jewel is next in line to become Loremaster. It is frequently passed on prior to dying, but this is not a requirement. Should the present Loremaster die, the first to obtain the Jewel becomes the new Loremaster."

Except the whole problem that Ghostwalker has with Dunkelzahn leaving a will, is that it isn't done like that in draconic tradition. Nothing gets "left" to someone. It's always fought over, winner take what he can hold.

Maelwys · Post by **Maelwys** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:49 pm

lordhellion wrote:Being the Loremaster of Barsaive (as Toryu mentioned in the opening post) means absolutely bumpkiss.

I think that's the crux of the matter. Is Vasdenjas simply the Loremaster of Barsaive, or is the the overall Loremaster? There are regional Loremasters, as described in the ED Dragon's supplement.

However, Barsaive in War also describes the dragons having to undergo a ritual of succession with the death of Vasdenjas in the Battle of Sky Point/Vivane. They also mention having to appoint a new Loremaster. Take that how you want, if it means Regional, or overall.