Demon: The Fallen

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:32 am

I'd just like to say I picked up the Anthology, Lucifers Shadow. so far, Most coolness.

Icepick · Post by **Icepick** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 5:00 am

I've heard nards, nads, nuts, and there's more than that.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 4:07 am

Hellfire-to-the-crotch aside, does anyone else think that this sounds like a really, really fucking stupid game, or am I alone on this one? It just looks like WWs next reaching-out into the goth community. I mean, "Lucifer is a sympathetic, Miltonian anti-hero."...what the fuck!?

DocRedfern · Post by **DocRedfern** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 6:33 am

CykoSpin wrote:Hellfire-to-the-crotch aside, does anyone else think that this sounds like a really, really fucking stupid game, or am I alone on this one?

No, you're alone.

I'm biased as all fuck, but I think Demon is a fucking fantastic game, and the buying public seem to agree.

Icepick · Post by **Icepick** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 6:46 am

It seemed pretty cool when I saw it being played out, but then again, I haven't played myself. It is of course, built on a very solid system.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 8:48 pm

FlakJacket wrote:
Cazmonster wrote:Kick him in the nards!
Nards? Must be an American thing. Always heard them refered to as 'nads, as in short for gonads. Feh.

Flack, It's a direct reference to Monster Squad.

And for now, all I have on the game is hellfiring people, and there's nothing funnier than some horn face dropping to his knees in agony as his leather codpiece is engulfed in purple and green flames.

Icepick · Post by **Icepick** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:34 am

Hahahahaha, LOL.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 11:20 am

CykoSpin wrote:does anyone else think that this sounds like a really, really fucking stupid game, or am I alone on this one?

I'm sure you're not alone on that one. If you look hard enough, you can find people willing to espouse just about every point of view.

So, what exactly makes this a 'stupid' game? For that matter, what is a 'stupid' game?

By every reasonable measure I can think of, this certainly isn't one. So I'm interested to know what yardstick you're using.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:41 pm

Well, it pretty much boils down to this: From what I've heard so far, the concept of Demon sounds like a poorly done rip-off of In Nomine. That, and "Lucifer is a sympathetic, Miltonian anti-hero." is just the biggest load of crap; I'm not even religious and I find it to be sorely wrong and pathetic.

I, for one, find In Nomine to be a terrific, if not perfect, game for this setting (although, WW's "d10" system, which I am rather fond of, would be quite an improvement).

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:18 pm

CykoSpin wrote:Well, it pretty much boils down to this: From what I've heard so far, the concept of Demon sounds like a poorly done rip-off of In Nomine.

Then the people who've advised you have done the game a disservice, because they're really not much alike at all, beyond the fact that they both draw drama from the rebellion and fall of Lucifer and his angels.

Hell, if you want to boil it down to brass tacks, beyond the complete differences in theme and tone of the two games (which I really don't have time to start listing now), angels aren't PCs in Demon. There's a nice big difference for you right there.

That, and "Lucifer is a sympathetic, Miltonian anti-hero." is just the biggest load of crap; I'm not even religious and I find it to be sorely wrong and pathetic.

*shrug* Good for you.

No matter what you find, though (and pardon me for dismissing your opinion, but I find it hard to take critics seriously when they haven't read the material they're critiquing), it's a valid interpretation of him as a character given the game's setting. Taken out of context, of course it looks dodgy; however, within the context of the game it makes sense.

I, for one, find In Nomine to be a terrific, if not perfect, game for this setting (although, WW's "d10" system, which I am rather fond of, would be quite an improvement).

Chalk and cheese. It's like comparing D&D to Earthdawn. They may both focus on pre-industrial societies with big magic, big swords and big monsters, but the tones and themes of the two games are wildly different.

In Nomine's a fun game, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't replace Demon, nor does Demon replace it.

And I still don't see what, of your argument, supports the contention that Demon is 'stupid'.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:01 pm

and pardon me for dismissing your opinion, but I find it hard to take critics seriously when they haven't read the material they're critiquing

Not to mention that the argument is founded on a base of "it's wrong," "it's crap" and "what the fuck." Not exactly the most convincing case stated to date.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:13 pm

Cazmonster hellfires Cykospin in the crotch.

There, I've done it. I feel better.

Toon · Post by **Toon** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:48 am

No, no, no Caz... Hit him someplace he might actually notice.

Kwyndig · Post by **Kwyndig** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:50 am

I've noticed it's kind of difficult to hellfire someone in the ego...

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:39 am

Urge to fucking kill...

You know, you take your time to type a somewhat lengthy reply explaining yourself to someone, even though you really don't have to, simply to appease their curiosity as to why you may hold an opinion that *gasp* strongly differs from theirs, and what happens? Your computer crashes just as you’re about to finish. Twice, even. Well, maybe not you, but it did happen to me, and I can tell you, it's more than just a little fucking frustrating. Anyway...

I've noticed a pretty weak double standard here; if I had initially proclaimed a strong liking toward the game, going on and on about how it sounds like a really nifty game, not taking any time whatsoever to even attempt to explain why I think it's so damn cool, no one would have questioned it.

I was curious to know if I was the only one here not jumping directly onto the Demon bandwagon. I expressed an opinion based only on what I knew about the game so far; I thought it was reasonably clear that I don't have a definitive opinion of the game yet (note my use of "sounds like" and not "is" in my initial post). Fuck, it may just be the bestest damn game that ever was (so far, though, I seriously doubt that I'll like it). You can disagree with me all you want, telling me how wrong you think I am until you're blue in the face, then you can piss off. I'll form my own opinions on my own fucking time.

The Traveler · Post by **The Traveler** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:48 am

Well, considering that you've got two of the freelance writers working on Demon supplements in this thread...are you that surprised at the response?

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:24 am

Not really. What does surprise me is the tendency of people to feel that it is perfectly acceptable to like something upon first inspection, but not to dislike it.

The whole "Heaven 'n' Hell" thing just ain't my cup o' tea if you play up the Hell side of it, but leave out the Heaven; if there are demons, but no angels; if it makes Lucifer out to be a "sympathetic anti-hero". Jestyr said that it makes sense within the context of the game, which is exactly my point; it's the very context of the game that I find stupid-sounding. I actually find the concept of playing as an escaped demon to be extremely appealing. In fact, "Demon: The Fallen" was an idea I had some time ago back when I started playing WW games (but then I found In Nomine and thought "well, they did it better than I probably ever would have").

Frankly, I don't see where there is any problem. It's only my initial opinion that Demon sounds like a dumb game. Who knows, I may end up liking it after all, I might not. If I flip through a copy and decide that my initial opinion stands, then WW is out one potential sale. Big fucking deal.

The Traveler · Post by **The Traveler** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:27 am

Considering that White Wolf has significant excerpts up on their website that could easily explain at least the rudiments of Demon's cosmology and themes, I'd say ignorance is no excuse. It'd be rather simple to educate yourself and come up with a snappy rebuttal if you still dislike it.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 11:03 am

Just because you don't like what I have to say doesn't make it invalid.

By the way, I did check out the stuff posted on WW's site. Although I haven't given it a meticulous examination, I feel I have read quite enough (coupled with the stuff posted here) to get a reasonably strong gist of the game. Also, I find your implication of my ignorance to "the rudiments of Demon's cosmology and themes" rather ironic, as it was by and large your synopsis of these very rudiments that influenced my initial reaction.

DocRedfern · Post by **DocRedfern** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 9:18 pm

CykoSpin wrote:I've noticed a pretty weak double standard here; if I had initially proclaimed a strong liking toward the game, going on and on about how it sounds like a really nifty game, not taking any time whatsoever to even attempt to explain why I think it's so damn cool, no one would have questioned it.

Uninformed interest is significantly different to uninformed dismissal.

One is taking the position that you don't know much, but want to learn more; the other is saying that you don't know much, but don't want to learn more and plan to form an opinion based around incomplete knowledge.

I don't find that a double standard.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 12:55 pm

CykoSpin wrote:Not really. What does surprise me is the tendency of people to feel that it is perfectly acceptable to like something upon first inspection, but not to dislike it.

Which, you must admit, makes a nice change from the almost-universal modern trend where despising something is 'cool' and displaying enthusiasm is quite the opposite.

Jestyr said that it makes sense within the context of the game, which is exactly my point; it's the very context of the game that I find stupid-sounding.

Obviously we're using different definitions of 'stupid'. To me, something "stupid-sounding" holds no intellectual merit, or makes no intellectual sense. Demon is neither of those things. It may be unappealing to you personally, and that's all fine and dandy, and I really don't care. I still don't think you've shown it's stupid, beyond a nyah-nyah childrens' playground sense of 'if I don't like it, it's stupid by definition'. But hey, that's just me.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 5:42 pm

The premise is interesting, and it fits in well enough with the WoD storyline, but it's rather oddly done, mechanics-wise. Not sure how cross-playing (probably it's biggest market) will come out.

Icepick · Post by **Icepick** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:41 pm

Ancient History wrote:The premise is interesting, and it fits in well enough with the WoD storyline, but it's rather oddly done, mechanics-wise. Not sure how cross-playing (probably it's biggest market) will come out.

Well, from the one session I've seen, it seems to be a lot more powerful than just about anything else. I'd still rather get in a fistfight with one of these than a Chrinos werewolf, but I've seen a couple of tricks, and they're rather brutal.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:50 pm

I was reading through the intro at the local Barnes and Noble and I really don't think I like the idea that Demons have to depend on Mortals for anything. So, when I run this bad boy, I'll be yankity-yanking those rules out by the roots.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:53 pm

On a physical front they may be fairly bad ass (some of them), but an mage, hedge wizard or magus worth their salt could bind or banish one of these things; and some vampires, faeries, changing breeds, mummies, Kuei-jin and wraiths could hit these guys on both physical and spiritual planes.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:07 pm

Mages with Spirit Magic are people high on the list to be Hellfired in the Crotch.

So are most vampires, but that's because Rottshreik is so funny to watch.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:11 pm

Cazmonster wrote:I was reading through the intro at the local Barnes and Noble and I really don't think I like the idea that Demons have to depend on Mortals for anything. So, when I run this bad boy, I'll be yankity-yanking those rules out by the roots.

Well, thing is, that's not so much a 'rule' as a 'major theme of the game'. Once you read through more of it, you'll see what I mean, but taking that out would drastically change the entire game's feel and intent. Which is fine, of course; it's your game.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:25 pm

Aww Crapcakes!

I always hated Herd and Kinfolk and Acolytes and (insert Wraith herd here) and dreamers. They really fried my nuts.

I will have to bum a copy long enough to read through and understand.

Cazmonster hellfires a Demon's face and gets to reading.

I bet you all thought I was gonna say 'crotch' didn't you.

The Traveler · Post by **The Traveler** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:29 pm

Aw, don't worry about it, Caz. You don't always have to inspire faith, you can also do such fun things as having people sell their souls to you to power your mojo.

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:26 am

Cazmonster wrote:I bet you all thought I was gonna say 'crotch' didn't you.

We were kinda hoping...

Icepick · Post by **Icepick** » Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:58 pm

Cazmonster wrote:Mages with Spirit Magic are people high on the list to be Hellfired in the Crotch.

So are most vampires, but that's because Rottshreik is so funny to watch.

So are mages with prime magic, and with life magic, because any of those could be rather dangerous. Mind magic, while not directly dangerous, could be devistating in the long run.

Forces 2 + Prime 1(I think, you do need more than forces)=Röttshreik.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:40 am

Jestyr wrote:Obviously we're using different definitions of 'stupid'. To me, something "stupid-sounding" holds no intellectual merit, or makes no intellectual sense. Demon is neither of those things. It may be unappealing to you personally, and that's all fine and dandy, and I really don't care. I still don't think you've shown it's stupid, beyond a nyah-nyah childrens' playground sense of 'if I don't like it, it's stupid by definition'. But hey, that's just me.

To me, the word 'stupid' means "showing or resulting from a lack of intelligence; foolish". It means this to me because that is its definition. It says so right in this big ol' book I got called a dictionary, and I don't make a habit of disagreeing with my dictionary. So, 'stupid-sounding' would be something that sounds as if it is resulting from a lack of intelligence; sounds foolish. Demon, a game based directly upon well-founded religious mythos, seems (converse to what you said earlier about In Nomine) to be bent over backwards to be religiously offensive, which, to me, sounds extraordinarily foolish.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:44 am

Okay, now you've finally given a reason as to why you think it's stupid, we can move on. (And your definition sounds much the same as mine, so we're working on the same principles here.)

So: what, exactly, makes the game seem as if it's going out of its way to be religiously offensive? (And don't bother citing the pamphlet or the website; they're PR, not the game itself.)

(Have you actually read any further material about the game yet?)

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:50 am

I was typing a reply. A long reply. In fact, I was almost done with my reply when this computer decided to eat my reply. I'm not re-typing my reply. I even had a somewhat interesting anecdote about how I discovered a new game called 'Engel' while I was perusing a copy of Demon: The Fallen. I really, really hate this computer.

To sum up:
Demon is based upon Catholic demonological mythos, yet it seems to go out of its way to slap 'em around. It'd be nice to give you the long version of this, with the nice little details and such, but I'm very, very angry and more than just a little tired right now, and you seem like a smart enough person to at least guess some of it.
Also, Engel (a new In Nomine-ish game by SSS) seems like a nifty game (aside from its icky d20 badness, that is). I only got a brief glance of it, but what I saw looked pretty damn in-depth and fairly well researched. It's Heaven vs. Hell in the 27th century, with angels and devils fighting the big apocalyptic war and whatnot. If not for anything else, I find this game appealing simply for its sweet layout.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:02 am

CykoSpin wrote:I was typing a reply. A long reply. In fact, I was almost done with my reply when this computer decided to eat my reply.

Gosh, that's twice now in this thread alone. Maybe you should write your responses in Notepad and save them regularly; that might help.

Demon is based upon Catholic demonological mythos, yet it seems to go out of its way to slap 'em around. It'd be nice to give you the long version of this, with the nice little details and such, but I'm very, very angry and more than just a little tired right now, and you seem like a smart enough person to at least guess some of it.

Given that this makes no sense - in the context of your previous complaint, about the game going out of its way to be religiously offensive - I think I'll avoid making any guesses, since I'd hate to put words in your mouth.

Also, Engel (a new In Nomine-ish game by SSS) seems like a nifty game (aside from its icky d20 badness, that is). I only got a brief glance of it, but what I saw looked pretty damn in-depth and fairly well researched. It's Heaven vs. Hell in the 27th century, with angels and devils fighting the big apocalyptic war and whatnot. If not for anything else, I find this game appealing simply for its sweet layout.

It is, I believe, another translation from a foreign language game. Don't quote me, though; I could be on crack. And yes, Engel looks delicious.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:11 am

Jestyr wrote:Gosh, that's twice now in this thread alone. Maybe you should write your responses in Notepad and save them regularly; that might help.

Yeah, normally I do.

Given that this makes no sense - in the context of your previous complaint, about the game going out of its way to be religiously offensive - ...

No, not really. It makes sense just fine.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 11:13 am

CykoSpin wrote:No, not really. It makes sense just fine.

Then please do explain to me how "Demon is based upon Catholic demonological mythos, yet it seems to go out of its way to slap 'em around" is an elaboration upon the "It goes out of its way to be religiously offensive" argument.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:37 pm

Jestyr, give in to the dark side...

Hellfire Cykospin in the crotch.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 10:44 am

Well, Jestyr, to put it simply, the demons from Demon: The Fallen are based directly upon the demons of Catholic mythos, but yet, they seem to heavily (as well as purposefully) contradict them.
It's been an observation of mine that religious folk have a tendency to take offense when something (like, say, demonology) is taken directly out of their scripture, but then is written in such a way as to contradict their beliefs (such as the sympathetic view of demons and the possibility of their redemption, just to name some things off the top of my head).
The idea of playing as a demonic entity in the "Worlds of Darkness" setting is fine and dandy and all, but I think this game would have greatly benefited from a more generalized demonology (which, in essence, it does have if you simply toss out the whole Catholic-demonology-based background).

DocRedfern · Post by **DocRedfern** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:19 pm

CykoSpin wrote:The idea of playing as a demonic entity in the "Worlds of Darkness" setting is fine and dandy and all, but I think this game would have greatly benefited from a more generalized demonology (which, in essence, it does have if you simply toss out the whole Catholic-demonology-based background).

And then you'd end up with a setting that's bland and generic, with no capacity to draw upon the vast and intriguing body of demon-related myth and legend of the real world.

White Wolf games have flavour and backstory. And in this case, a whole-cloth version simply couldn't have measured up to the coolness of 'real' demonology.

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 9:39 pm

The White Wolf games are traditionally sympathetic to the plights of the traditional "tools of evil". They already delve into Christian mythology* a little for each of the preceding settings (Vampire, Werewolf and Mage). I don't see the difference between presenting a sympathetic view for any of those and the one evidently shown in Demon.

* - specific Demons and Angels are, for the most part, non-biblical and the war of the heavens is as well, so you need to stretch into the mythos region. This means that Vampires and Werewolves also covered in such mythos are valid, and Mages being evil is even Biblical, with extensions in various mythos.

Icepick · Post by **Icepick** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:49 pm

Of course, this would mean that wraiths are removed entirely from Christian mythos, due to the fact that there is only heaven and hell.

If you read it right, you'll find out that someone did a good job trying to explain everything. One of the Houses performs the function of the Wyrm, so if you look at it in the right light, somebody could be trying to explain the cosmology of the World of Darkness as a whole, but be careful when you look, I don't want to hear about anybody's head exploding.