OOC: Legacy of Justice

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OOC: Legacy of Justice

Post by Bethyaga »

This is for character building/character development for Legacy of Justice, an upcoming IRC game using Mutants & Masterminds. The world building thread for this can be found here.
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Post by Bethyaga »

The cast so far:

Kyle -- Aries, the god of war. Basically a brick, but with a few quirky extras
Kai -- Nighthawk, a Batman-esque protector of the night whose once impressive array of tech has begun to degrade on her
Caz -- unnamed, possibly a power armor type
DV8 --
Thorn --
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Post by DV8 »

My question was; can I just flip through the M&M book to see what kind of powers and such there are? I know very little about superhero comics, and I played DC Heroes exactly once for a couple of hours, so I'm at a loss at what's possible and what's not. In this case, a lot of the character's background and personality will be determined by whatever superpower they have.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Uh... yeah. Go right ahead. Some of my very best characters over the years have been people whose powers have come first and the personality and history later. Look at The Sound Man I just posted to the other thread. Basically, Caz's talk of musicians got me thinking "Hey, what if someone had the power to make music recordings in this world?" After starting from the power, I then built up the rest of him. (Granted, there's not much more than that there yet, but you get the idea.)

Just flipping through M&M will give you a good idea of what's possible, and you can build a million amazing heroes from just that list without having to stretch too far. But also remember that anything you want is possible. That list can be tweaked and modified with Feats and Stunts and Limits and Extras to create just about anything. The only limit I've found so far is the Power Level. There are some things that are possible under M&M, but there's no way I can build it effectively at Power Level 10.

As a note to everyone in character building: PL 10 means (among other things) that 10 is the effective limit of your powers and bonuses, etc, but most of your stuff will not be at a rating of 10. For example, if Aries is PL 10, and he also gives himself SuperStrength at 10 with the associated Protection at 10, etc, then he may find that he doesn't have enough points left over for some of the other stuff he wants. Basically, having your primary power at max rating for your Power Level means your character is pretty focused on just that one thing. If you want a more diverse array of abilities, then you need to realize that a lot of your stuff is going to fall at about 5 or 7.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Very cool, will have to hork the book soon. Thank god for gaming stores that sell on the cheap.

Doctor Cosmos will be more like Starman and less like Iron man. He had originally worn a large, partially armored trenchcoat and a massive hat, a lot like the Shadow. I think he's moved on to leather versions of the same. In fact, yes, he now wears an oversized, irridescent ankle-length leather trenchcoat.
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Post by Kai »

Just because I like comic book absurdity and all, Nighthawk was originally a master thief who was captured and taught the errors of her ways by Major Justice, then vowed to use her talents for good :)

First pass of number crunching should be finished by this weekend, started yesterday but you know, Matrix and all :)

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Post by DV8 »

I'm assuming, giving the background, that Time Travel is absolutely out of the question, huh? :)
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Post by Bethyaga »

That's a pretty safe bet, Deev.

Time Travel is pretty much a GM device/NPC tool if it appears at all.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Kai wrote:Just because I like comic book absurdity and all, Nighthawk was originally a master thief who was captured and taught the errors of her ways by Major Justice, then vowed to use her talents for good :)
YES! And on Major Justice's word alone, this former felon was allowed Union membership and access to all sorts of restricted/confidential government information.

One of the things that I really like about the characters in the M&M core book is the massive volumes of implied history, "Raven is actually the daughter of the first Raven who fought crime in the..." That sort of thing. You keep expected little yellow boxes at the bottom saying, "*Back in issue #104!"
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Post by Threadbare »

y'know what you guys need? Someone like Luke Cage. Sweet Christmas, that'd be cool.
_

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Post by Bethyaga »

Let me just say that I own almost the entire run of Power Man and Iron Fist from the 80's.
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Post by Threadbare »

Oh, and you should also include some throwaway reference to Mysterious Crime-stopping baked goods.
_

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Post by Bethyaga »

We have the Brick, the Detective, and the Power Suit. So which super stereotypes are we missing:

The Martial Artist
The Fire Guy (or Electric or Light or Ice or Sound or some other energy)
The Mentalist (Telepathy, Telekinesis)
The Spellcaster
The Shapechanger/Stretchy Person
The [Animal] (increased strength, dex, senses, miscellaneous others on an animal theme)
The Speedster
???
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Post by DV8 »

After reading what you said about how you wanted the world to be, or more over, how you didn't want the world to be, I'm pretty much convinced I want to play a native of the flux-rased lands. A wanderer, like Mad Max, relatively selfish and cynical but only because his survivalist mentality forces him to be. Too many people in the world are trying to take advantage of generosity and altruism, so he survives by being distant. He wanders because he's a good guy at heart. He wanders because he's convinced he'll find something that gives his life meaning. There has to be something better than this?

He lies, cheats, steals, fights and murders...but only to stay alive. He hasn't been able to join forces with any group, or stay in any town, because they're all the same. And right as he was about to give up hope, after years of wandering the blasted plains, dodging raiders, tribals, mutants and armed trade caravans he comes upon a group of pure souls, with a fire in their eyes that is unequaled, and a determination that revitalises his own; the Justice League.
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Post by Bethyaga »

I'm very good with that.
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Post by DV8 »

I'm very glad to hear that. :)

I'm rummaging through the M&M book right now, to see how the system works (I'm not that familiar with D20) and to flesh out the character concept.
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Post by Bethyaga »

In fact, I don't even know your powers yet, but you've given me all sorts of ideas. These are all just possibilities... discard at will:

*You've not picked a costume or a "superhero" name at this point, but you will stumble upon the trapped Union members by accident and then it all develops.

*Your primary attack is Lethal (or you are used to using it in Lethal mode), and you have to adjust to not trying to kill everyone (Wolverine).

*You found documents (old comics or newspapers or magazines) that showed you what the Union was all about. You had finally found your purpose, so you donned a crude costume and set out in search of what happened to these heroes of the past.

*You are haunted (hunted?) by gruesome mistakes of the past, and you are trying to atone for your past misdeeds.

*Uh... I thought I had more ideas than that.
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Post by DV8 »

I'll go over some of your ideas, and some of the ideas I had a bit later, when I understand the M&M system. I have a question; if you have a super power that has extras and limitations, are they always valid? I was looking at the Disintegration power, which tells me I can disintegrate inanimate matter. An extra is that I can also disintegrate living tissue. Do I have to buy that extra? Also, it says that a flaw is that you can only use it against one type of material. Is that something that makes the power cheaper?
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Post by Bethyaga »

The basics are Powers cost X per level. Every Extra you add to it adds 1 pt to that per-level cost. Every Flaw you add to it subtracts 1. Stunts are a one shot purchase, like a feat, so a Stunt is a one-time cost to add something to your power, and then you don't have to keep paying the per level cost. Sometimes, one Power can be considered as an Extra to another Power.

So taking your Disintigration as an example:

If you take plain old Disintigration, it will cost you 2 pts per rank, it only affects inanimate objects, it takes a half action to execute, and it is a normal ranged attack that is instantaneous. That's it, you don't need to buy anything else.

But let's say you want to affect living things as well. That is an Extra and brings the cost up to 3pts per rank.

And you also want to be able to reverse the effects if you choose. That's the restoration Extra and now you're up to 4 pts per rank.

But the way you're power works, it is only at your touch, so that is a Flaw (decreased range). Back to 3 pts per level.

And let's also say it takes a lot of concentration, so to use disintigration, you must take a full round action (no movement or other actions). That's another Flaw, so the final cost of your Disintigration (touch only, full action, affects living and non-living, reversible) is 2 pts per rank. As a Power Level 10 hero, you can spend 20 of your 150 points to have this Disintigration power at 10.


Another example:

Super-Strength (cost 4 per rank)
--Extra: Protection (as the power, +1 armor per rank) (+1 pt)
--Extra: Leaping (as the power) (+1 pt)
--Flaw: From Device (power suit) (-1 pt)

Total: 5 pts per rank

Plus, she'd like to buy the Lethal stunt that allows her barehanded strikes to do Lethal damage if she wishes. Lethal is a stunt, and so it just costs 2 pts as a one time cost, and she doesn't have to keep paying extra per rank.

So as a Power Level 10 hero, she wants her suit to provide 8 ranks of Super-Strength as above plus the one stunt. Total cost: 42 pts.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Clarification: if you add on another Power as an Extra, then the added cost is the cost of the added power minus one.

For example, I take Element Control (water) which costs 2 pts per rank. I add on the stunt of Water Blast. Then I decide that every use of the Water Blast also causes Suffocation. Suffocation is a 3pt Power, so I can add it as an Extra for +2 pts per rank.

Therefore, 5 ranks of Element Control (water) with the Water Blast stunt and Suffocation will cost 22 pts.
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Post by DV8 »

Thank you, Bethy.
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Post by Bethyaga »

I need input.

The book recommends that all bonuses and ranks be limited to your Power Level, except for skills which are limited to PL+3 (because of D&D). This limit is supposed to apply even to multiple powers which stack together.

Therefore, you are all Power Level 10. Aries will take Super Strength. He will also have Weapon (his pole axe or whatever). In melee combat, the damage bonus from your strength is supposed to stack with your damage bonus from the weapon, but because he is PL 10, his total stacked bonus should not be allowed to exceed +10. He could easily by Super Strength at 8 and Weapon at 6, but the stacked bonus would be +14 to damage, which would exceed his limit.

That seems overly limiting to me, but I haven't played it. They suggest that you could set higher stacking limits, but advise that you do so only very cautiously. I'm thinking a stacking bonus of 1.5 x PL seems reasonable, but I'm wondering what you think.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Okay, in the very specific example of damage, how hard is it going to be for anyone to take a shot from Aries and survive - is d10 or 2d6 +15 enough to drop a PL10 in one shot?

I ask only because I just got the book tonight and will be reading valiantly away this weekend.
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Post by Serious Paul »

I know I am not a player, and I won't have my copy of the book until after this weekend I think, but 1.5 sounds reasonable, and it can be dealt with as a GM by simply upping the opposition if needed, so they go from 1.5 to x2 for this game if it becomes a sticking issue.

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Post by Bethyaga »

Caz, despite being d20 based, damage is the one area of HUGE departure for M&M. There are no Hit Points. Therefore, the difference between +10 and +15 becomes quite significant, as the damage bonus becomes part of the target number for the victim to resist damage.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Bethyaga wrote:Caz, despite being d20 based, damage is the one area of HUGE departure for M&M. There are no Hit Points. Therefore, the difference between +10 and +15 becomes quite significant, as the damage bonus becomes part of the target number for the victim to resist damage.
Ig.

Since that's the case, a +15 damage result is incredibly dangerous, and will reliably drop people in the PL10 class.

I would say that we can go up to 150% except in the attack/defence damage/soak arenas.
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Post by kyle »

Cazmonster wrote:
Bethyaga wrote:Caz, despite being d20 based, damage is the one area of HUGE departure for M&M. There are no Hit Points. Therefore, the difference between +10 and +15 becomes quite significant, as the damage bonus becomes part of the target number for the victim to resist damage.
Ig.

Since that's the case, a +15 damage result is incredibly dangerous, and will reliably drop people in the PL10 class.

I would say that we can go up to 150% except in the attack/defence damage/soak arenas.
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Post by Bethyaga »

I assume we'll be sharing character stats (or most of the details at least) as characters get finished. Kyle has Aries mostly done. Anyone else have more ideas/development?
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Post by kyle »

Bethyaga wrote:I assume we'll be sharing character stats (or most of the details at least) as characters get finished. Kyle has Aries mostly done. Anyone else have more ideas/development?
I've made my changes and I'm willing to simply post up what I gave you, with the modifications. Unless you don't want me to.

You were wrong about the weapons- under the rules you have to pick either ranged or melee-- if you pick melee, then you get to add your strength bonus- but not for ranged. So I didn't take an extra.

So here's my raw data- whether you want me to or not. Keep in mind that he's Aries, the God of War- so he's a little focused on combat:

Abilities: Strength: 20 +1 xtra attack bonus
Dexterity: 16 +2 xtra defense bonus
Constitution: 20
Intelligence: 16
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 16

Total Pnt. Cost: 47

Skills: Knowledge x10: comprehensive history prior to the fall
Intimidate x4: total modifier +4 (+5 on normal sized creatures due to Growth modifier)
Attack Focus: Weapon +1 Attack

Total Pnt. Cost: 16

Feats: Endurance: +4 for End. Checks
Immunities to: Age, Disease, Exhaustion, Poison, Pressure, Starvation, Suffocation
Detect Immortals

Total Pnt. Cost: 18

Powers: Growth x 4 (Xtras- Continuous, Leaping, Flaw- Always on):
9 feet tall; 600 pounds; Attk/Dfns Modifier –1
Includes add’l Powers:
Immovability x4
Protection x4
Super Strength x4

Amazing Save (Damage) x 3

Amazing Save (Fortitude) x 3

Comprehend x 10 (Flaw- only applies to pre-fall human languages)

Weapon- Double-sided Halberd/Warhammer x 5 (Power Stunt-
Dual Damage): + 5 Damage

Armor x 5 (Prometheous’ Hide): +5 Protection

Regeneration x 10: Regain 1 stun and lethal hit per round.

Postcognition x 1: Speaking to Titans

Total Pnt. Cost: 72

Weakness: Berserker (+10 points): Will-based save at beginning of each combat; If fail do all out- attacks (preferably) until all foes disposed of; then will-based save again; If fail attack nearest ally or bystander; will-based save again at each new round with +1 cumulative modifier for each successive round.
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Post by Thorn »

Heya Bethie,

I'm an asshole player in the prep arena, I sadly confess. Sorry for having been a wholly silent party member since my initial "I'm in" thinger.

Caz has been perusing M&M and I'm about to start actually reading through this and the other thread now, and from there I'll probably have a more complete idea of what I'm going to do, but for now, I'm contemplating updating and adapting a character from a Golden Age supers game Caz ran in AFMBE a couple years ago:

<b>Dakota Lang</b>, high adventure enthusiast and former barnstormer extraordinaire. Sort of an Indiana Jones/Alan Quartermaine type. Huge skill-base character, if I give her any powers at all it'll be on the order of DC's Wildcat, where she's some kind of tougher-than-human or some such, but nothing really noticeable or offense-capable.

This may not be entirely viable as you seem to have the "Detective" type already well in hand - she may not be different enough to be workable in the team. But like I say - once I give all this a solid read-through and give the book a look-see, then I'll know if a) I'm gonna stick with Dakota, b) if I'm gonna say screw it and start from scratch, or c) if I'm gonna start with Dakota and adapt the living crap out of her, probably giving her some powers on the way.

If you've got some direction you'd prefer her to go, let me know. I'm mega-flexible on all this currently.
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Post by Bethyaga »

That's between you and Kai, really, but maybe Nighthawk will be more to the Martial Artist/Detective side of the archtype, whereas Dakota is more to the Adventurer side.

They literally could be night and day.

If you stick with Dakota, consider a hefty dose of the Luck power (5 or 6 ranks) as her primary (or only) true power.
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Post by Thorn »

Yarrr. Excellent idea.

Because yeah - she's plenty smart, but not in the detective kind of way. She can do all kinds of survival-y things, and can handle herself in all manner of situations, but she's far more on the brawn than the brain side of things. At least, in her nature. She's tough, but certainly not a Brick. :)
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Post by Kai »

That is about right, Nighthawk stats wise is highly skills based with a couple of good Feats and Super things revolving around better senses and such, she can deliver some damage but is at heart the sneaky info gatherer type. I don't see her seeking adventure so much as keeping a silent eye on things and interveneing when neccessary. If people are noticing her without her wanting to, generally she's screwed up something :)

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Post by Cazmonster »

Just so you know, I have got to find a way to take Cosmic Power - it's friggin' perfect.
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Post by DV8 »

I've decided to make most Kain's powers relatively non-flashy, since I think it would fit better with the fact that he's a native to the flux-rased worlds, and it fits with his Mad Maxian demeanor. I was thinking about a lot of regenerative ability and immunities. Oh, and I was thinking about one power that's not in the book, which I'll have to make a proposition for and get Bethie to aprove it.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Kyle: Looks real good. I expect that in play, the feel of Aries will be slow and lumbering. Due to his size and strength, he will do massive damage (+14), but he may be stumped by an opponent with speed and agility (high defense/dodge).

Thorn: (just suggestions) If Dakota is Indiana Jones-ish, possibly she would work well with one or two low-grade powers that come from various mystical items she has acquired in her travels. For example: Amulet of Luck (give it a fancy name)--Luck +8 [Flaws- from device; cannot be used on attacks; limited uses 4x per day]--cost 8 pts. Or something that gives low grade telepathy or precog. Maybe levitation with limited uses. Who knows.

Caz: If you want to rename Cosmic Power to Flux Control or Flux Mastery or whatever, it's still the same thing. You could be a low-power Green Lantern type in a super-suit. Pre-Fall, you had this supersuit that allowed you to do a bunch of cool things based on this bizarre energy source you didn't fully understand. Now, after the fall, your mastery of your suit has given you a more generalized control over Flux energy in general. NOTE: if you go this route, you could take Cosmic Power at, say 5, but then still boost individual aspects higher than that. Like buying just the Flight or Power Blast portion up another couple levels. Just thinkin out loud.

Deev: I'm all ears.
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Post by kyle »

Bethyaga wrote:Kyle: Looks real good. I expect that in play, the feel of Aries will be slow and lumbering. Due to his size and strength, he will do massive damage (+14), but he may be stumped by an opponent with speed and agility (high defense/dodge).
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Post by DV8 »

You know the athletic event "the hammer." That silly twirling with a hammer, releasing and seeing how far you can throw? If I see you sign up for "The Tank," you are on your own, honest to God.
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Post by Bethyaga »

kyle wrote:Hulk smash!
Rrarrrrgh! Mick-R-THY-1 SMASH!!

*laser* *laser* *laser*

Rrarrrrgh! Mick-R-THY-2 SMASH!!

*laser* *laser* *laser*
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Post by Cazmonster »

Quick question - can we divide up attack and defense ratings? I ask because the good Doctor is going to be worth about half a crap with melee weapons and his bare hands, but a crack shot with a fluxbolt.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Cazmonster wrote:Quick question - can we divide up attack and defense ratings? I ask because the good Doctor is going to be worth about half a crap with melee weapons and his bare hands, but a crack shot with a fluxbolt.
As the rules are written, you can buy Attack at 3pts per +1 and Defense at 2pts per +1. Attack bonus is exactly analgous to D&D's BAB. You have a single attack bonus, but the melee portion is modified up by strength (but not super-strength) and the ranged attack bonus is modified by Dex.
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What a tangled web we weave

Post by Cazmonster »

So, I've been working on my character and it's starting to make my head heat up. I have to find a way to pay for a 6pp power at 10 ranks and still have something left for skills and feats. Of course, having any power that's got a 6 factor cost is nice.

Because while 5 points of Cosmic Power would be good, 10 is undeniably better.
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Re: What a tangled web we weave

Post by Bethyaga »

Cazmonster wrote:So, I've been working on my character and it's starting to make my head heat up. I have to find a way to pay for a 6pp power at 10 ranks and still have something left for skills and feats. Of course, having any power that's got a 6 factor cost is nice.

Because while 5 points of Cosmic Power would be good, 10 is undeniably better.
Can't be done. Not if you want feats and skills and any kind of reasonable attack bonus.

But six ranks of of Cosmic Power combined with an extra three or four ranks in the power blast portion of it might be suitable.
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Bethy's Right

Post by Cazmonster »

Damn it, I know in DC Heroes I'd be able to use my twinkmaster Z powers!

Cazmonster grumbles and goes back to work with lower aspirations.

But now for a real question - with Cosmic Power, I can get Immunities and Create Objects. I need a GM ruling on being able to share my immunities with anybody inside a created bubble - the way GL would create space or undersea bubbles.

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Post by Bethyaga »

But here's the thing... maybe I'm doing this wrong. Look at the 8 or 10 sample characters in the front of the M&M book. Their style is apparently to define their primary power, take it at 10 ranks, and then move on to split up the remaining points.

Protonik especially. His primary power set is Flight (w/ superflight) and Super-Strength (w/ Immunity, Protection, and Super-Senses). No flaws, so this primary power set costs him 9 pts per rank. Then he takes it at 10! That's 90 pts. But then he spends 23 on abilities, 41 on skills, 4 on feats, and 23 on Attack/Defense, so he actually adds up to 181. He's either Power Level 12 or he's missing 3 Weaknesses.

But all the rest of them seem to balance about right as far as I've looked at them.

From what I hear from you guys and from my own experience toting up stats, we seem to be more in the generalist vein, wanting at least a little more diversity and well-roundedness than the archtypes here. Are we doing it wrong? Are we expecting too much?
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Post by Bethyaga »

Caz, I think sharing immunities would be at least 1 Extra, and possibly 2. Immunities affect self only. To allow them to affect one other person you choose would be an Extra. To step up from there and make it area effect would be another Extra. On the other hand, using the area effect would also be of limited duration so maybe we can make it just 1 Extra.

And yes--Excel rocks for this task.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Bethyaga wrote:Protonik especially. His primary power set is Flight (w/ superflight) and Super-Strength (w/ Immunity, Protection, and Super-Senses). No flaws, so this primary power set costs him 9 pts per rank. Then he takes it at 10! That's 90 pts. But then he spends 23 on abilities, 41 on skills, 4 on feats, and 23 on Attack/Defense, so he actually adds up to 181. He's either Power Level 12 or he's missing 3 Weaknesses.
Oh wait. I see what they did. They include his super-senses bonus in his skills. So he actually only spent 151 points. He's fair.
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Post by Cazmonster »

I did notice that with skills as well, at first, Dr. Cosmos was going to compete with the Gadgeteer, and I couldn't figure out how she has all those crazy skill bonuses.

+10 Super Intelligence will take you far.

Aww Yeah. I got Dr. Cosmos figured out. I thought about what you said about generalist/specialist and I decided that I could do a ton better focusing on the specialist side of things.
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Post by Kai »

I'm a little left of center as the system was not terribly designed for the lack of super powers or pretty close to it :) I know I'm way general, but that's also part of the character, a little bit of everything involved in being sneaky and hard to catch.

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Doctor Robert Quimby aka DOCTOR COSMOS!

Post by Cazmonster »

Robert Quimby used his knowledge of quantum physics and cosmic energies to create crime-fighting gear to join the Legion of Justice. When the Armageddon Engine activated, he attempted jump outside of the Legion Hall using his Infinity Engine, the core of his Cosmic Powers. The resulting lightshow was nothing more than cataclysmic. When the smoke and the ozone cleared (I'm thinking that Doctor Cosmos spent his time in statis partially exposed to the ravages of the Flux Effects), he found that his Cosmic Blaster and Infinity Engine were both burned beyond repair, but he could now use their powers directly.

His Cosmic Powers are quite spectacular - brilliant white energy corruscates around him whenever he uses the powers. All of his energy constructs look like they are made of living lightning.

(Once I get home to my other notes, I'll crank in a little bit more of his Biography)
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