Steam and Sorcery: Religion and Righteousness

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:31 am

Before that other thread gets completely sidetracked into religion, bring your comments over here.

My central theme for religion, like almost everything else in Steam and Sorcery is to subvert the dominant paradigm. Most important to that end is to knock the Desert Religions off of their pinnacle. And I thought the best way to do that, considering that they all depend on an all powerful god (and nothing in Steam and Sorcery is all-powerful), is to deprive them of the sort of contact that clerics in a fantasy setting enjoy.

The Martayan Gods (and Eight Powers) were all definable, they each had specific abilities, appearance, personality. This was not based on belief, but on actual contact between mortal and divine. Ancient Earth religions were headed by pantheons of gods that were definable. They had personalities, they had spheres of influence. However, the Desert Religions put all their eggs in a single basket. One God, all powerful, who did everything.

As it happened, the Desert Religions turned out to be pretty darn popular, and they became the central religions here on Earth, but to do so, they had to change, to absorb other cultures they came into contact with. These political machinations weaken the belief itself. (Heck, today, ask 100 admittedly religious people what they think God thinks about a subject, you'll most likely get 100 different answers).

When the Spellcoming occurs, the Martayan Gods (and Powers) are hedged from direct interference on Chrysalis (The Merged World). They can, at most, provide their clerics with 7th level magic. Direct contact with the powers is not possible. At the same time, people who have worshipped and believed in definable gods find that they are finally getting some answers. These new gods are acting in part as conduits to the Martayan Gods.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:39 am

Serious Paul wrote: Now personally I like the pantheistic approach. Not only does it add to the overall sense of Chaos and rebirth (Your old gods are dead!)but it also shakes up traditional power blocs. I realize Sal you were just asking a question in the intrest of realism, so don't take any of this as personally directed at you.

It also means as a GM you don't have to deal with the land mind subject of religion-as a game developer thats good too.

It also does not prevent people from saying or believing that pantheistic gods are multifaceted representations of "GOD". Zeus is gods leadership, Ares his anger, dreckcetera.

The only thing preventing people from saying that the individual gods are representations of a greater power is the Gods themselves saying "Um, dude, there's no puppet strings on me."

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:40 am

Salvation122 wrote:
Cazmonster wrote:Right, and they talked about all powerful, all knowing, all seeing Gods. If that was real their Gods would have done anything in the thousands of years of recorded history.
Well, there's a lot of precedent for the sort of interventionist-deity approach you're taking with the Yahweh of the Old Testament.

I dunno. I see Mohammad himself leading a jihad of Paladins, Clerics, and Warpriests against the infidel demons who have plauged this earth, and I think "That would be really badass." I suspect that this is a case of NIMC, and I'll let it go, but I think it would be a very interesting campaign idea for an area that is geographically a very important trade route.

Edit: Even better! Yahweh, in his Old Testament form, is back, and He's rather angry at the Gentiles for following the blasphemous teachings of Christianity and Islam. He sees what's happened to the Jews, and starts smiting. Interesting, without as many politically sensitive points.

Of course Yahweh is not the biggest kid in the playground anymore. There's dozens of other Gods who'd really not appreciate him making with the floods and the burnination and the turning hot Gomorrahean women into salt.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:41 am

Bethyaga wrote:
Second, after the spellcoming, those Earth dieties who had definable forms, and definable powers, were 'Quickened'. Worshippers who had had "personal relationships" with Gods suddenly had someone talking back, often audibly. However, the Major Western Religions (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) had no such Quickening, there is no all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God for them to talk to.
This Quickening is disturbing. There have been thousands of gods in human history, and I'm assuming that only a handful of them (20-50) gain any substance at all, and even then, many are mostly insubstantial, and not up to the level of Martayan gods. It's touchy ground, but it might behoove you to decide on most of the gods that have been quickened in this manner--which have become real and which have been subsumed by the old Martayan gods. For example, assuming Ra still had a huge following, would he quicken, or would he simply become an aspect of the Martayan sun/father god who is, in most respects, very similar to Ra?

But if gods can be created purely out of faith, then there's no reason that the monotheistic religions might not see the avatars and messengers of their faiths gain form. Jews, Muslims and Christians all share a common vision of angels and devils.

And what of our beliefs in ghosts and the like? Such things existed on Martaya, and if sheer belief can create whole gods, can it also give life to ghosts?

Just things to think about. They make my head hurt, but someone will have to clarify them all eventually.

I do plan to make up a new cosmology, and fit the Earth gods I want into it alongside the Martayan ones.

Your's isn't the only head that's hurting. I need more caffiene and theology before I go too much further. I had been thinking fairly seriously of 'Quickening' the Saints and possibly the Angels. Of course, things would probably be a little confusing even for them, because they won't have a Big Man Upstairs to talk to either.

I can't say much for Judaism or Muslim and their respective intermediaries, because I don't know them, at all. I'm a bad multicultural GM, shoot me.

Ghosts are totally in, as are Specters and Spectral Beings. And while this doesn't mean that everybody's favorite sainted aunt will be hanging around the attic, places that were 'haunted' in our world could very well be haunted now.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:41 am

Wildfire wrote:Personally, I'd kind of like to see the old gods kept around, the Egyptian pantheon, the Norse, but perhaps it is a more limited scale thing, pehaps they only have substance and power in a sort of 'influence bubble' where they were worshipped a lot, the Egyptian gods only have a real presence in Thebes and Valley of Kings, etc.

They might be aspects of Martayan gods in some ways, and maybe clerics of them can get some form of aid from similar dieties, but maybe take a tack of there needs to be a certain concentration of worship to allow a god to awaken/be created, and a lot more to ever gain any real power, hence the Martyan gods are quite powerful since everyone from Matayak believes in then, more earth gods are small if anything due to doubt and few solid believers.

Of course, a lot of this view is tainted with the whole Egypt project, but I figure can't hurt to throw my two cents in.

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:14 am

The ancient religions may not have an intense following, but they are far from dead. Greak, Roman and Egyptian mythologies are still taught in schools, sometimes Norse as well. The fact that they have enough weight, even now, to warrant teaching in our classrooms means that they had enough punch thousands of years ago to make it today. Sure, they might not be the rock 'em sock 'em boppers that they were in their heyday, but they've still got an existance. Maybe they just look a little older than usual.

Still, I think it'd be cool to bust into Valhalla only to find Thor sitting on a throne, hammer against the wall, picking out Purple Haze on a guitar.

Big Jim · Post by **Big Jim** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:35 am

Reading through this makes me think of American Gods, by Neil Gaiman. Gods being only as powerful as the faith of their followers. I can see aspects of that being incorporated here. Hmm...more thoughts later, when I can pull them together.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:58 am

Harry Turtledove did a similar thing in Case of the Toxic Spelldump which has been a huge influence on me for this game.

Bethyaga · Post by **Bethyaga** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:50 am

Cazmonster wrote:I had been thinking fairly seriously of 'Quickening' the Saints and possibly the Angels. Of course, things would probably be a little confusing even for them, because they won't have a Big Man Upstairs to talk to either.

I think this is a cool concept. Just because they can't communicate directly with God doesn't mean these manifested saints and angels wouldn't believe in him (never stopped us mere mortals), but it would mean they'd have to alter some of their dogma to accomodate the new reality.

As for other gods saying, "There ain't no strings on me." Well, Earl says that too, but his saying so doesn't stop Evan believing the strings are there anyway.

None of the new gods and powers and forces is in any way an ultimate creator, so there's nothing to stop people from believing in one. Just because I talk to Thor every Thorsday doesn't mean I don't still believe in the one true God who created Thor.

It's just that, unlike these lesser gods, the monotheistic God (if he exists) provides no proof of himself. That's appropriate. Leave his existence or non-existence to the philosophers and watch as the new gods usurp much of his current glory.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:29 am

Hephæstus has dominion over the forge, which changes so little when these dimensions merge. YHVH has dominion over all the land, all of creation; when creation itself is so horribly changed, how can he maintain anything like control over it?

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:11 pm

3278 wrote:Hephæstus has dominion over the forge, which changes so little when these dimensions merge. YHVH has dominion over all the land, all of creation; when creation itself is so horribly changed, how can he maintain anything like control over it?

Perhaps he's the one that decided that this dimension would run using physics and the Martayan one would run using magic... and I'm not going to be talking about him (or her, or it, no lightning bolts today thank you) one way or another when it comes down to getting the book out.

Bethyaga · Post by **Bethyaga** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:21 pm

Well, exactly. My Grand Unified Theory in the other thread indicates that all of this smacks of intelligent design. Otherwise, how do you explain having humans from both worlds who can interbreed, even though one was originally made of atoms and the other was formed from bound elemental forces? It could have been a Creator who later disappeared or split himself into myriad pieces or just don't talk much. It could have been a committee of original gods who designed the many worlds and then each took dominion in the worlds that best suited them. This new merging of worlds could then be the result of some battle among gods on another plane of existence. Or maybe the collected consciousness of the multiverse has created these Aristotelean archetypes--or true forms--that are repeated and varied on in numerous worlds. Who knows?

I like the idea that there is some higher mystery.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:23 pm

Oh! And I forgot to mention that I totally worked this stuff out in my head last afternoon while playing Hexic and reading the Anime SRD.

The Cosmological Rules.

1. The Earth Dimension uses physics as its modality. Everything that happens within the Earth Dimension can be explained using physics.

2. The Martayak Dimension uses souls as its modality. Everything that happens within the Martayan Dimension can be explained using souls.

3. The Earth Dimension is situated 'next' to the Martayak Dimension.

4. Earth Human faith and belief (in Gods, Legends, Ghosts, etc.) have created 'disruptions' in the material bounding their dimension. These disruptions would allow Entities (like gods and ghosts) to affect Earth. However, there are no Entities within the Earth Dimension.

5. As the new dimension is formed, the disruptions from the Earth dimension carry over, granting Entities access to Earth. However, these disruptions are 'keyed' only an Entity similar to a specific faith has access.

5.

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:39 am

Basically, Earth got weakened in terms of physics, and Martayak got weakened in terms of magic, right?

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Thu Sep 25, 2003 10:11 pm

Exactly - The 'motes' of magic get in the way of the science Earthers depend on and the 'laws' of science try to stop magic from working.