Discussion: Steam & Sorcery World

[FlameBlade]

FUCK!

I missed this thread completely!

THIS THREAD!

[Cazmonster]

Okay, rather than start yet another thread on the subject, I'll just hijack Flameblade's and use it. Thanks for the thread Flame.

Alright - two things here that I want to discuss.

First off - the 'modern' study of Alchemy is purely a Chrysalis science (if anything can actually be called a science any more). On Martayak, everything that might have had an alchemical mode in a standard D&D campaign had a magical mode. That means that things like sunrods, tanglefoot bags and the various oils and inks would have been created through magical enchantment rather than middle-ages chemistry.

One thing that I want to try to get developed from the Martayan world is that magic did nearly everything. And their cultures enjoyed many of the luxuries that we as modern people do.

A ship was watertight not because workmen used properly fitted timbers and then sealed them with pitch. Rather, they used magic, along with tools to see that the keels and clappers fit snuggly, and then further enchanted the ship to repel water.

Medicine and health whould have been the same. Just before the End, there were dozens of incredibly powerful arcane and divine spellcasters who had extended their lives through magic. Humans over one hundred years of age were not uncommon, and they were as hale and hearty as a human half their age. But as the magic ebbed, they suffered arthritis, heart failure and many other ailments we take for granted. (This does not mean that all people enjoyed extended lives. It is, after all, not a fair world.)

[Cazmonster]

Good question Caz.

I was thinking about this today... tell me what you think.

Would it be out of the realm of possiblity to raise spiders (and I mean big spiders here, like the 2 or 3 HD ones) to spin large amounts of silk that could be alchemically treated and then spun into incredibly tough textiles, like canvas only lighter?

(Heck, I just thought to myself, how cool would it be to have folks who've got ballistic weave vests composed of dozens of tightly woven layers of spider silk?)

[FlameBlade]

Hmmm...
I'll get back to you on that...
Hmmm...
t's a very nifty idea.
But however, I think as the ship gets bigger, it would require a lot more energy to sustain the magic somehow. In other words, I'd imagine that would be several hydromages on the board. I'd imagine that Hydromages' sole purposes: To defend the ship (not to attack) and to keep ship dry and safe.

[FlameBlade]

and on completely unrelated note, I saw a physics professor at my college that looks, act, behave, talks exactly like you, Cazmonster. Scary thought.

[Bethyaga]

Would it be out of the realm of possiblity to raise spiders (and I mean big spiders here, like the 2 or 3 HD ones) to spin large amounts of silk that could be alchemically treated and then spun into incredibly tough textiles, like canvas only lighter?

Well, you're God. You decide. Use spiders or the much tamer 3HD silkworms... whatever. But it's possible.

[FlameBlade]

I can imagine that...Silkworm farms...Spider farms...

Hmmm...

A campaign could involve the raiders of Spider Farm. Not quite a pleasant job for PCs, right?

[Cazmonster]

Would it be out of the realm of possiblity to raise spiders (and I mean big spiders here, like the 2 or 3 HD ones) to spin large amounts of silk that could be alchemically treated and then spun into incredibly tough textiles, like canvas only lighter?

Well, you're God. You decide. Use spiders or the much tamer 3HD silkworms... whatever. But it's possible.

Well, yes, I know I can say things like "Modern Sails are made of the silk from huge spiders". What I'm asking for here is - do you buy the concept or not?

[Salvation122]

I read something on spider silk by, uh, Dupont, I think, and they said the reason you can't make spider farms is that theyre cannibals. Put a bunch of spiders together and you get one big fat spider.

[FlameBlade]

I would buy the concept if it was worked on a bit more.

In fact...

Imagine this. A group of people raises spiders...also trains them to obey every commands by the trainers. In other words, they can spin silk on command. They will attack any unfamilar intruders, thus people who train the spiders would have monopolized control on the spiders. Spider farm is an effective line of defense for silk spinning industry. Think about it. Silkworm is pretty passive, and wouldn't fight back well if stolen or anything. Spiders, on the other hand...are a different story. Imagine huge spiders. Imagine Sword Spiders defending the farm, not allowing any intruders to spidernap anything. Imagine Phase spiders zooming in and out on trainer's command.

Now...if the group is evil...it would have an interesting effect...

[FlameBlade]

Salvation: This is for small spiders...It's entirely possible that larger spiders are more intellegent, and knows what is necessary for survival...and trainers provide them with food, and are classically conditioned toward trainers only, so anything outside normal, they would alert trainer or attack only to retreat back if possible.

[Serious Paul]

That hardly seems out of the realm of possibilty especially in a world where magic is relatively common.

If we look at Arachnids as a whole there are pretty broad range of subjects to chose from. If we look at the Life of a Spider we find that people have been working with them since the 1700's and maybe even longer:

"Ruricolae nostri quando eas captare volunt, ad illorum latibula accedunt, tenuisque avenacae fistulae sonum, apum murmuri non absimilem, modulantur. Quo audito, ferox exit Tarentula ut muscas vel alia hujus modi insecta, quorum murmur esse putat, captat; captatur tamen ista a rustico insidiatore."1

Arachnids are unable to eat their food in a normal manner, in fact Most are unable to digest food internally, instead injecting their prey with digestive fluids then sucking the liquefied remains. So feeding them could get complicated I suppose.

Of course finding a place for the "Spider Farm" would be relatively easy as

Arachnids are found worldwide in nearly every habitat. Most groups are free-living, but some mites and ticks are parasitic; these can carry serious animal and human diseases. Venomous spiders and scorpions also may pose a danger to humans, but most arachnids are harmless and prey on insect pests.

So no armies of peasants with pitchforks and torches. I am still looking for how much a spider consumes in a day.

1"The Tarantula, so dreadful at first sight, especially when we are filled with the idea that her bite is dangerous, so fierce in appearance, is nevertheless quite easy to tame, as I have often found by experiment.

[Cazmonster]

I was really figuring on tarantula-like creatures (big burly fuzzy spiders) who've been domesticated by biologists-turned weavers. Folks with some biology knowledge can figure out what to feed these guys (protein broken down with digestive fluids comes to mind) and give them plenty of it to keep them passive and productive.

[Bethyaga]

Now for my question...

This is a sensitive one that could affect a lot.

I've been under the impression that Chrysalis is essentially old Earth with much of Martayak imposed over the top of it. That is, we kept our planet, but gained much of their people and culture and magic, etc. However, I also assumed that in this melding of worlds, it wasn't just huge gateways through which marched the hordes of Martayak fleeing their dying world, but also that in the chaos, there were sometimes whole chunks of the old world of magic ripped from the ground and dropped into ours or blended with our landscape, so that many of the fantastic beasts of Martayak can now be found here, as well as maybe some of their famous landmarks and random sections of slums or croplands or whatever.

So it actually leads me to two questions:

First, are there still pockets of stable high physics or stable high magic to be found in this blended land? Might we stumble upon some "lost world" type area where the computers still work and technology still flows? Or now that the deed is done, is the world simply what it is? My personal vote is for option 2 (no pocket-lands), because it is simpler and eliminates the need for extra rules to explain how things work in these areas. But part of me recognizes how many cool plot-hooks and flavor-beans one could get from these last isolated pockets of unblended space. Your call... maybe something you've thought of... maybe something you would rather not discuss and just spring on us at a later date...

Second, is it possible that fragments of other worlds may have been caught in the wake of our storm? That is, Earth and Martayak combine to form a new world, but in the tumult of the process, fragments of other "nearby" dimensions are broken off and dragged into our whirlwind. For example: The Toreth were merchants, traveling between planets in their great voidships, buying and selling and moving on to the next planet in the circuit. Then without warning, the Toreth voidship Il-Ka was plucked from the ether and deposited 6 miles up over a Kansas cornfield. Fortunately, the stasis fields worked for a few minutes more and saved the crew from the ensuing crash, but the Il-Ka was ruined along with half its wares. The Toreth quickly found their technology to be all but useless, but they are ever a resourceful lot. Salvaging the few things of any value from the ship (spices, xeno-flora, art, textiles, some others), the Toreth did what they knew best... they traded. They started with caravans of beast drawn wagons and have expanded to technomantic vehicles, quickly adapting to this new world, and they travel from city to city around North America finding the highest profit margin. The Toreth resemble nothing so much as rhino-headed dwarves, and are quite unique in that there are all of 80 of them on the entire planet... so far. Presumably, their homeworld/dimension is still out there, but they have no way to return and no interest in doing so.

Whoops... okay so that became more detailed than I had envisioned, but you get the idea.

[FlameBlade]

I was really figuring on tarantula-like creatures (big burly fuzzy spiders) who've been domesticated by biologists-turned weavers. Folks with some biology knowledge can figure out what to feed these guys (protein broken down with digestive fluids comes to mind) and give them plenty of it to keep them passive and productive.

That, on other hand...could be run by "law-following, goody-two-shoes" group of people...So, this is still entirely possible.

And dammnit, Bethyaga, keep giving idea like that

Here's an idea...how about inserting "lost world" type areas in a supplement guide? In other words, insert a little hint about that in the story of two worlds colliding. Personally, I wouldn't put that two world colliding in a main book...but rather, for a supplement.

Afterall...it's Caz's call

[Serious Paul]

Thats a damn good idea Bethyaga, as long as it doesn't get too crazy, which I suspect Caz will of course keep it from being, but also the idea that gateways could still exsist between worlds and dimensions is intresting as well. Doorways that are random and hidden.

[Cazmonster]

Very excellent question - one that I do have some plans for.

My purest intention is to make the world a homogenized place, if you could really call two worlds collided into each other homogeneous. However, some places do remember what they once were, and have the potential to become something greater.

There is a reason why I plan to make use of Silicon Valley as the home of the Difference Engine. The Earth Land 'remembers' the flow of electrons across circuits and the flood of ideas through minds.

There's also potential to make use of part of the Nighted Continent in Latin America. The Old Religion, complete with human sacrifice returns as the Death God takes his rightful place in the Black Mountain.

Part of me also wants to use bits of Russian cosmonaut areas combined with some of the best of Martayan dimensional travel castles to do something with either Astral Space or the Moon.

So, yes, the world will be 'normalized' with the rules obeying as they should and no, it won't as it can be 'polarized' by sentient action.

[Bethyaga]

Thats a damn good idea Bethyaga, as long as it doesn't get too crazy, which I suspect Caz will of course keep it from being, but also the idea that gateways could still exsist between worlds and dimensions is intresting as well. Doorways that are random and hidden.

Much like the doors between planes/realms are supposed to be in "vanilla" D&D, neh?

But yeah, the silliness is exactly what I'd be afraid of with this. It would be so easy to let it get out of hand. I imagine that if these fragment worlds did occur, then we'd be talking about a few thousand dimension-fragments worldwide. Of these, only one or two hundred involved sentient beings, and fewer still involving a significant population. Over the last forty years, almost all of them have either died out, or are too few to be relevant and will die out soon, or found a way to leave this world, or else are similar enough to simply have blended in and been absorbed by the population (leaving a few "planetouched" types behind). But in the end, there would only be a very few (like my Toreth example) where something drastically different has been inserted into the world. Maybe six or seven of these total, all with populations of under 300.

And Caz, do I go for your spiders? Yes I do, but not as a cheap, mass-produced product. I think spider-textiles would be necessarily expensive, but not so expensive that the average person wouldn't run across such items fairly often.

[Cazmonster]

Yes I do, but not as a cheap, mass-produced product. I think spider-textiles would be necessarily expensive, but not so expensive that the average person wouldn't run across such items fairly often.

Kickass - you see, I have been doing a little reading on the side. One of the books I've got is called "Prometheans in the laboratory" and it's about the chemists who changed the world we live in.

I was reading about the guy who created nylon and whoa, did that get me thinking...

[Serious Paul]

Much like the doors between planes/realms are supposed to be in "vanilla" D&D, neh?

You know that slipped my mind I was thinking about a series of books I read at work, where planar travel was the key to stopping a demon race from conqueoring all dimensions and enslaving everything.I will have to find the titles.

But yeah, the silliness is exactly what I'd be afraid of with this. It would be so easy to let it get out of hand.

In D&D the manual of the planes was where I went "Silly".

I imagine that if these fragment worlds did occur, then we'd be talking about a few thousand dimension-fragments worldwide.

I certainly think it is not if, but how many and when?

Of these, only one or two hundred involved sentient beings, and fewer still involving a significant population.

Thats if you apply standard laws of physics, and what we know of the universe is correct, but I do agree, and it simplifies things.

Over the last forty years, almost all of them have either died out, or are too few to be relevant and will die out soon, or found a way to leave this world, or else are similar enough to simply have blended in and been absorbed by the population (leaving a few "planetouched" types behind). But in the end, there would only be a very few (like my Toreth example) where something drastically different has been inserted into the world. Maybe six or seven of these total, all with populations of under 300.

Maybe with the occasional wnaderer or demonic spaw popping up in certain areas to add instability to the world?

[Anguirel]

Going through this thread one post at a time...

Alchemy is purely a Chrysalis science: good. It makes sense, and it means that there's likely a lot of research -- which will likely lead to various sorts of alchemy/technomancy races, similar to the space race, as well as some regions attempting to gain superiority over others by utilizing specialized research (more on this in a bit).

Spiders for silk production is a possibility with any sort of magic backing it up. As I understand it, the two major reasons they aren't used now is that they are harder to manage in large groups (as mentioned) and they don't produce silk as reliably, as I understand it. That is, it's hard to get them to produce silk in a fashion that's easy to harvest. Interestingly enough, some spider's silk can be, IIRC, up to 15 times stronger than that from silk worms. And the tensile strength of silkworm silk is already well over the best steel we've managed. Just some food for thought. It's some incredible stuff.

As for using bigger spiders -- I'm not sure if that would help. Bigger spiders probably means they'd be creating much thicker strands. Useful for some things, but i don't see it as a common or sole method of harvesting. A few big spiders to make ropes and nets and such, as well as provide protection, and then hordes of smaller ones for normal applications, like clothing. I see them on par with modern high-tech weaves. Expensive, but not extrordinary or unlikely in an appropriate place. Like high-tech climbing ropes or ... well... Most people don't have the ultra-wicking micro-towels yet (these things are the size of a washcloth at most and don't absorb water, they're simply one-way for it and it falls off the other side so as you pass it over your skin it's instantly dried as a small cascade of water falls) but they exist and are often carried on expeditions, particularly where keeping dry is important (such as cold-weather environments).

I don't think you'd need multiple hydromages, as the blending of technological and magical methods for ship building would definitely have yielded functional ships. Besides, ship building has been pretty damn consistent for a few thousand years. Only the most modern of ships (Plastic / Polymer Yachts, Motorboats, Tankers, Steel Weapons Platforms) are going to suffer. I'd imagine both Maratayak and Terran ships would survive, in fact. The Maratayak ships may lose their resistance spells, but if they are well-fitted by magic, as long as the spell isn't what holds them together (and that's unlikely, you'd want to stop using magic as soon as possible -- it'd be like using an electro-magnet to hold it together) and they probably had problems with people dispelling the water-resistance so ships would be designed to survive without. They were just more efficient when it did work.

Individual worlds, spike regions: First, a question... As Maratayak invaded Terra... did Terra invade Maratayak? Is there another world like Chrysalis but with mostly Maratayak landscaping? As for the rest -- I've been thinking about that a lot ever since i heard about S&S in concept. I kept it to myself, since it didn't seem to fit, but I was thinking of creating a world similar in concept, but where the world ended up polarized. On one side you have pure magic and the other is pure tech and you've got regions in between where they merge in weird ways. The Outlands from Planescape (where Sigil is located) seem to be pretty close, only they don't have a lot of tech thee. And, oddly enough, I've just started reading up on Planescape and read that *after* I conceived of this for an S&S-like world. Anyways, I was thinking in an expansion you could touch on an alternate Chysalis where the merging was less uniform -- the Maratayak side of the merging. Some place with tech and magic spikes all over.

But I was planning to get back to something earlier -- specialized research for an advantage might backfire if they were testing in a place that was attuned one way or another, preventing them from using their new technomancy anywhere other than their home town. Though it'd help defensively. I can also see a big call for covert operations attempting to discover where a given item works and where it won't. Even mapping expeditions to discover the various levels of magic and technological capability with gradients drawn in... Related Q: Do enchantments dispell entirely outside a region where they work, or would they fade and then restore as you went back in? Equally, if you took hi-tech fibers or steel that survived in a weakened form elsewhere and went into a tech-high place would they regain some or even all of their former strength?

[Kai]

Well I certainly hope large chunks of Martayak were dumped wholesale, I've kind of turned Egypt and the Sahara into a sort of 80/20 Martayak/Terra mix. In my head its homogenous overall, but there are areas more Martayak and areas more Terra.

Extra fragments, expansion stuff possibilities I'd say, but not in the main book. Another side...the idea was Martayak and Terra crashed together I think, a rough 50/50 merge that ended up with Chrysalis, there wouldn't be anything left. Analogy, more like one glass of sugar and one glass of water make one glass of different water, not like one glass of water and one glass of milk make two glasses of mixed stuff.

Silk - I think it would work in theory, I think also you'd have alchemical sciences devoted to replacing the former concepts of mass production and magical copying. You might have a small farm producing a swatch of silk and a technomagical method/device that will replicate the swatch and make a sail from it. It would probably be very expensive, or take an equal quantity of the sail of other materials (wood or elemental or something) but it would definitly be a viable solution.

[Cazmonster]

The best way to describe what happens during the Landwarp is as follows:

The soul of Martayak dies. As it does so, the laws holding the planet together fail. Martayak shatters into thousands of pieces. Many of them 'collide' with Earth. Where they 'land' the Earth changes to echo that part of Martayak. There is no Martayak for Earth to collide with.

[Bethyaga]

Good. Then my vision has not been far off.

[FlameBlade]

I have been working on S&S world...

And came to realizations...

I wrote a list off top of my head...wrote lists about things that I'm curious about, or things that I already know. Anything that asterisked are those that I am curious about. Double asterisk means it's currently being discussed

**Spider farm
Technomancers
*Places of Worship
*Research center for magic-physics combination
*Magical Biology
Alchemy
*Memorial to Techdeath
Songs of Martayak
Magical Lourve

* (and **)Geography:
Sheboygan, Wisconsin
Caribbeean
Atlantis
California-Silicon Valley
All Major Cities.
Rural Areas
Mayan/Ican/Aztecs
Stonehenge
Mestompia
Africa (especially with creatures.)
Japan (Is it still a pocket of technology?)
England (Magic prevails in that area?)
China/India (considering its population...)

[FlakJacket]

So with the big whocking batteries we'd still have enough electricity to power stuff? 'Cause if you don't have enough power to run the sewage systems you're in the shit - both literally and healthwise. Which would kind of make major urban areas a bit on the filthy/pestilant side. Or are there other options like Martayak stuff?

[FlameBlade]

And also...Urbans areas would be pretty much of ruins...because all of structures depends on technology...So...

That's what I'm interested in...would there be pockets of zombies or...?

[Wildfire]

Some random feedback

*Research center for magic-physics combination
In the back of my head, after a very short story/exposition, there exists an entire development and story of what once was Fermi lab for this purpose. I'll get to it someday

Oh, and I found the appriviated Egypt stuff here if anyone cares. Have no idea where the full writeup is, somewher on mine or Eli's harddrive I imagine.

[Cazmonster]

So with the big whocking batteries we'd still have enough electricity to power stuff? 'Cause if you don't have enough power to run the sewage systems you're in the shit - both literally and healthwise. Which would kind of make major urban areas a bit on the filthy/pestilant side. Or are there other options like Martayak stuff?

Up to a certain point, you can drive a sewage system with gravity. Get the clean water up high enough and it will run through your plumbing well enough to keep everything sluiced out.

I did mention on another thread that a cistern of clean water will generate about 25,000 gallons of pure water per day. So long as you can get the sewage back to the cisterns, you've got pure water.

Yes, the main pumphouses will need some assists, and there's more than electricity to power machinery. There's steam, there's the motivate object spell, and there's good old fashioned muscle. In fact, electricity is probably going to be bad for powering physical motion (with the exception of Flesh Golems of course )

[Cazmonster]

And also...Urbans areas would be pretty much of ruins...because all of structures depends on technology...So...

That's what I'm interested in...would there be pockets of zombies or...?

Now wait a second - I said before that older buildings are still up. There's a decent chance the Empire State Building survived. The Sears Tower - sure, that went into the lake and now there's a second miracle mile. Stone and mortar 'skyscrapers' can have survived. The glass towers less so.

And dude, of course there are zombies. Hell, I'm using zombies to make France palatable.

[FlameBlade]

I'm just working ion understanding the world

[Threadbare]

Say, I have a question about light. From what I understand, there is no EM spectrum, and as a consequence, wave-particle duality in the world of S&S. Do the expiriments thinking of light as a particle still work, or are there no facilities to test it? Anyway, you'd have to go back to before Maxwell's equations for science, which conveniently puts us in the right time period, tech wise.

Also, what's the breakpoint for chemistry? I mean, have the "why"s changed for how we continue to live and such? Before I read the specifics on shooting irons, I was envisioning the 1898 Mauser as the pinnacle of firearms. I figured the Maxim was where things cut out. Perhaps the chemical reactions release a certain amount of energy as "magic" or something. Also, would pre-industrial gas pumps work? I mean, Boyle was operating in the 1600s. I guess this is the only point where my disbelief rainbow suspenders snap back and make me go "ouch."

[Bethyaga]

Don't think of it as "some magic works" and "some physics works." That is how it appears to the people of the world, but I suspect the truth is that something wholly "other" is in operation... technomantics. At least, that's the name we give to it. The truth then is that some processes that produced results in a magical world still produce similar (if lesser) results in a technomantic world. Processes that produced results in a "physical" world produce similar (if lesser) results in the technomantic world.

So while we keep saying things like, "Magic is weaker in the changed world." I suspect that magic is, in fact, gone, and it's just that old style magicians simply don't have the technique and power yet to replicate the old powerful magicks in technomantics.

But this is Caz's world, and I'm just guessing.

SIDENOTE: Caz--maybe 7th level magic is too high to start. Also--maybe ALL "magic" should require material components of some sort, and it took mages a few years to figure out what those material requirements were for the new world.

[Cazmonster]

Say, I have a question about light. From what I understand, there is no EM spectrum, and as a consequence, wave-particle duality in the world of S&S. Do the expiriments thinking of light as a particle still work, or are there no facilities to test it? Anyway, you'd have to go back to before Maxwell's equations for science, which conveniently puts us in the right time period, tech wise.

Damn you Bobbin and your intense intellect. Can you send me a synopsis of Maxwell's equations for science, as those will be damn useful?

Okay, while I don't think that it will ever come up in game text, energy has become more than particles and waves. There is also a fundamental magic component to all of existence. Light is light because of how the fundamental forces of Life and Fire interact. Viewed through a Martayan cosmoscope, one would be able to see the natural variations between those two forces in any light source.

That being said, Darkness is more than the absence of light. It exists as a function of Fundamental Chaos and Fundamental Earth. A cosmoscope could show you the quality of any patch of darkness the way one of our gas chromatographs can show you the qualities of a liquid.

Also, what's the breakpoint for chemistry? I mean, have the "why"s changed for how we continue to live and such? Before I read the specifics on shooting irons, I was envisioning the 1898 Mauser as the pinnacle of firearms. I figured the Maxim was where things cut out. Perhaps the chemical reactions release a certain amount of energy as "magic" or something. Also, would pre-industrial gas pumps work? I mean, Boyle was operating in the 1600s. I guess this is the only point where my disbelief rainbow suspenders snap back and make me go "ouch."

The breakpoint for chemistry has been fairly difficult to establish. My central idea has been to make life (at least in the early game setting) about as difficult as it was in the middle of the 19th century. And that thematic statement has been more important than looking at the entirety of physics, chemistry and biology and figuring out the 'whys' and ramifications of each change.

What exactly could the 1898 Mauser or the Maxim do? Were they gas-recoil automatics? Help me out.

Chemistry, well Alchemy, has indeed become part science part magic. Before the Spellcoming, we depended on the laws of chemistry to do everything. Martayans depended on the laws of magic.

This is important here - the Laws of Magic are a lot more like the Laws of the Matrix - some of them can be bent, with the proper application of willpower.

Alchemy works, in small part, because we, as intelligent, soul-bearing, beings can make it work. A large part of why we are still alive in spite of the changes I have made to chemsitry and physics is because we have souls.

On Chrysalis, you could never set up an automated laboratory, there'd be no alchemists around to oversee the reactions and you'd wind up with inert reagents.

[Bethyaga]

Say, I have a question about light. From what I understand, there is no EM spectrum, and as a consequence, wave-particle duality in the world of S&S. Do the expiriments thinking of light as a particle still work, or are there no facilities to test it? Anyway, you'd have to go back to before Maxwell's equations for science, which conveniently puts us in the right time period, tech wise.

Therefore, Threadbare, don't go trying to follow the chain of logic of if X doesn't work, then that implies that Y would be non-existent, and therefore there's no binding of oxygen to molecules, so we all suffocate and die. It ain't like that. The world is an end result, and it all works and looks the way Caz has described it. If the technomantics behind it don't make sense, it's just because we haven't figured out all the mechanisms yet.

As for the EM spectrum in particular... my own example in another thread was that a prism can still be used to separate white light into a spectrum of colors, it's just that in looking at stars or whatnot, where we would expect to see gaps in the spectrum due to absorption of light by different molecules, we see just the spectrum of color--no gaps. Therefore, either molecules don't exist as we knew them, or else they function and react completely differently.

[FlameBlade]

Cazmonster: No need for Maxwell's equations. It's not quite necessary here. I say that laws of physics work to a certain point. The point is: We manipulate certain objects, but we cannot deal directly with molecules. In other words, Electricity exists because of electrons breaking apart from the molecules. Nuclear exists because of splitting the atom. So, if we cannot deal with molecules directly, we can have much weaker version of electricity, and none of nuclear power. In other words, there is VERY little amount of free electrons necessary to make electricity happen.

Ah yes, that's my physics minor speaking here.

As a result, basic laws of physics remains. Light waves stays as it is (plus magic here.). We still can have stuff powered by light. We can flliter out light waves, in manner as described by Bethyaga.

Why do I say stuff powered by light? Consider this: Solar power heating water for bath or house use would be possible, and considering that heating takes time and a long process, and also is dependent on good weather...solar power isn't as powerful as our regular electricity.

I'll post more when more of my thoughts become more coherent. Heck, I probably will write an essay about Magic-Physics Research Center

[Threadbare]

Well, the way I was taking it was that the disease changed while the symptoms remained the same, so to speak. "It's not 'the laws of physics work to a point' so much as 'we can use these things to model the real world, to a point.'" Some principles still work, but for different reasons--like how the aether theory remained fairly solid until experimental data proved it wrong. You know, like my role model said.

I suppose I'm positing that electricity and magnetism exist, but don't interact in S&S. That way, no dynamoes, no diskettes, drekcetera.

On the guns, the Maxim was indeed the first gas-recoil machine gun (sure, you can bring up the gatling, but that didn't massacre natives outnumbering the gunners a hundred to one). Nicknamed "the devil's paintbrush," it was capable of 666 rounds per minute (although 600 is the usual figure quoted) and along with its clones was responsible for a majority of the deaths in world war one. The 1898 Mauser was a simple, effective bolt action rifle. When you talk rifles, that's your baseline. I think a few smallish countries still equip their forces with them.

[Cazmonster]

Machine guns are solid out. It doesn't matter if specific parts of a complicated machine work on their own. When put together they fail, every time. Elaborate, completely mechanical Swiss-made watches fail and no one can figure out why.

[FlakJacket]

So if the Mauser's in, I take it something like the - just to get all patriotic - Lee-Enfield SMLE would be allowed as well since it's basically as simple as you can go AFAIK whilst still be a very good rifle? That plus I just enjoyed using them in Medal of Honour. IIRC, there are still quite a few countries, mainly ex-colonies, that still use .303 for hunting.

Adds to the diversity, at least just in names of rifles, but I'm sure there are also a boatload or two worth of homegrown armaments that get made/gunsmithed by people in different regions for themselves.

[Threadbare]

Machine guns are solid out. It doesn't matter if specific parts of a complicated machine work on their own. When put together they fail, every time. Elaborate, completely mechanical Swiss-made watches fail and no one can figure out why.

That was my understanding. I guess the question on the mauser is if the ammo works for it. If you came up with some sort of alchemical propellent, they could be truly wicked, at least compared to the other weapons.

[Cazmonster]

I hadn't been planning on folks being able to use brass-cased rounds - mostly because when I picture the guns in Steam and Sorcery, they're big. It's going to take about an ounce of powder in order to make a gun work. So most guns are going to be these big massive affairs.

[FlakJacket]

Ah, so you're thinking more like turn of the century - as in 1800 - muskets and rifles stuff rather than Mauser type tech levels?

[Cazmonster]

American Civil War is really where I'm leaning.

In fact, one of the stories I'm planning for the book is called either Guns of Atlanta or Seige of Atlanta. It turns out that the old-style powder that the Civil War reenactors use still works (or at least well enough for the story). As a big horde of baddies head for Atlanta, and the National Guard can't stop them, these reenactor guys hop to and for once get to kick some ass. It also helps as most of the guys will be in their confederate grey winning one for hearty and home.

[FlakJacket]

Sorry to be a pain, but just to pin it down, you still want the guns to be muzzle loading 'cause they'd started also using breech loaders by then as well.

[Cazmonster]

There are both muzzle and breach loaders in game.

Muzzle loaders you can get off a shot for about 2gp, but it's going to take you a full round action to get your muzzle loader ready to fire (at least).

Breech loaders are going to run you 7gp a shot, and you can take a standard action to get them ready to fire.

Multiple shot weapons, you can fire on iterative attacks.

[Threadbare]

by multiple shot, do you mean black-powder revolvers? For instance, Could you pack a Lemat? Those things were civil war-era, if I recall, and nasty. held nine shots and had a one-shot shotgun under the pistol barrel. They were designed for close quarters combat before such a term had been invented. Funky weapon.

say, there are powerful telekinesis spells, right? How much would it run someone to rig up a gun with a one-direction push-type spell embedded into it?

[Cazmonster]

Yould maybe work out a Lemat-style pistol, if you're an ogre. Like I said before, every shot is about an ounce of powder. And the packaged round is likely to be about two ounces, with the frangible casette included. Barrels are coming in around 12.7mm and shotguns (which I haven't closely thought about yet) are probably all 10 gauge.

Your idea for a magic-gun is a decent one - even though there's not currently a spell to accelerate thing to bullet-speeds. But there's more that can be done with a firearm and magic. Consider for a second you've got a mage-pistol loaded with four potential spellworks charges. You draw down on the target and instead of getting a bullet, you get a blast of magic (anything from a magic missile to a fireball). Other technomagical weapons carry alchemical batteries to fire off up to twenty Cantrip or 1st level spells.

[Anguirel]

Other technomagical weapons carry alchemical batteries to fire off up to twenty Cantrip or 1st level spells.

A "pistol" loaded with Cure Light Wounds, minor buff spells and the Sober cantrip gives all new meaning to "shooting up". Now I'm envisioning Star Trek geeks carrying little injecto-things to insta-heal people...

[FlameBlade]

Other technomagical weapons carry alchemical batteries to fire off up to twenty Cantrip or 1st level spells.

A "pistol" loaded with Cure Light Wounds, minor buff spells and the Sober cantrip gives all new meaning to "shooting up". Now I'm envisioning Star Trek geeks carrying little injecto-things to insta-heal people...

I can see it...

"AHHHHHHHHH! YOU SHOT ME, YOU BASTARD! Wait... I feel better. Awesome! Shoot me again!"

[Threadbare]

Yould maybe work out a Lemat-style pistol, if you're an ogre. Like I said before, every shot is about an ounce of powder. And the packaged round is likely to be about two ounces, with the frangible casette included. Barrels are coming in around 12.7mm and shotguns (which I haven't closely thought about yet) are probably all 10 gauge.

Your idea for a magic-gun is a decent one - even though there's not currently a spell to accelerate thing to bullet-speeds. But there's more that can be done with a firearm and magic. Consider for a second you've got a mage-pistol loaded with four potential spellworks charges. You draw down on the target and instead of getting a bullet, you get a blast of magic (anything from a magic missile to a fireball). Other technomagical weapons carry alchemical batteries to fire off up to twenty Cantrip or 1st level spells.

I wants me mah scattergun! A grapeshot revolver would be a good weapon for your piratey types. Maybe the cap'n has one. Say, how fast can you accelerate something as-is? because if you just loaded a knife or throwing axe into one of those throwers, that's be pretty neat.

Ooh, how about cigarettes with one-shot spells loaded into them. Burn to activate, then you'll get like Increase charisma ("hey, that smoking guy looks really cool") or Accuracy ("Dieter took one long drag on his cigarette before pulling out a pair of pistols and going John Woo on their asses.") Plus, it'd be sneaky. (Is that guy getting his nicotine fix, or getting ready to shoot me?)