OOC: Steam and Sorcery - Repost for Reference

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Cazmonster
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OOC: Steam and Sorcery - Repost for Reference

Post by Cazmonster »

Okay - have to thank Bethyaga for a lot of this. I really tripped his trigger when he got to design a ton of new culture with Steam and Sorcery.

Putting the "Steam" into Steam and Sorcery

Perhaps a third of the network of steel rails that spanned most of the civilized world has survived the travails of the Landwarp and Techdeath. Steel rails bolted to heavy wooden ties are resistant to a lot of punishment. The trains had to be rebuilt, diesel dosen't burn and advanced electronics don't work anymore.

Most common trains are wood or coal fired. They can manage ten to twelve miles an hour. They're reliable machines, steam power was not affected by the changes.

Faster trains burn alchemically treated wood or coal (go watch Back to the Future III). They are about twice as fast as the common trains and require a lot of attention. The alchemical fuel is also very expensive.

Finally, there are trains that use a heat-producing creature, like a summoned fire elemental or salamander to boil the water. They can also be fueled by a magical device that performs the same function. They can run without fuel and are about three times as fast as conventional trains.

In the Carribean, many ships make use of boilers to power massive engines, especially those metal ships that survived from Earth. The engine rooms of the steamers are often quite dangerous to work, as the temperature soars over 100 degrees in minutes.
ScamperPuppy wrote:"Uh, Frank? There's somethin' holdin' on to the wheel. Last time around, it winked at me, and said, 'Faster!' This job is whack."
Disasters and "Opportunities"
With the population so drastically reduced, plus the introduction of 'evil' races, etc. I'm assuming much of the world is in a state of total lawlessness. Sure we find isolated pockets--cities, towns--where people have the lights on again, but in general, it's a lot of open wilderness.

What does this imply for our trains? There's a fair bit of traffic going on without any sort of planning or traffic control. Also, if I were a kobold tribe looking for an easy score, how tough is it to sabotage the tracks and then just pillage the wreck later? All of this leads me to think the trains would be pretty heavily defended any time they run outside of 'civilized' lands.

Many trains will be protected by teams of outriders, including physical or mechanical engineers who can check the status of the tracks and make repairs in short order. Since the trains are moving at a maximum speed of 40 miles an hour, the teams have some time, but not lots of time, to do their very necessary work.

Train towns, safe harbors for precious cargo, have sprung up around the old rail yards and important lines. These communities depend on the revenue from the trains, and a large part of their population works to protect them and keep them functioning. Rail lines near train towns have defenses built up near them, everything from breastworks to armed guards to alchemical and magical traps are put into play.

Steam Power - Other Applications
Heavy industry can also make use of steam power, as can more 'artisan' work, like metal crafting. I've been watching Monster Garage and the like and the metal working and shaping tools some of these people have at their disposal are really cool. Sure, there's some things that may not work (because they depend on pneumatics or intricate gearing), but a technomagical ironworks will be able to shave a significant amount of time off of item creation.

Electricity and Electronics
Alchemical batteries form the core of many devices and conveniences in Steam and Sorcery. A wealthy home could keep a large bank of alchemical batteries to run the

lights and heat and whatnot. For not too much money, I'd assume basic battery powered light and heat sources would be available (in the right cities).

Small batteries containing a mix of alchemical reagents and potential spellworks form the core of a number of weapons: like the stunner (single target Sleep), and the barty club (Inflict Light Wounds with subdual substitution). Larger (50 gallon drum) batteries form the core of the new telegraphy system - providing power to repeater crystal networks.

Dynamos no longer work. Old-style chemical cell batteries are inert lumps. The only reliable way to generate electrical power is through alchemical batteries. Once an alchemical battery has been created, it has a limited amount of power. They can be quite long lasting, even with continuous output, but their total wattage is generally not very high. Anyone with technomantic skill (and the right feat) can activate or deactivate a battery. I.e.--simply switch the power output on or off. If shut off, the battery will hold its charge indefinitely--they are not known to "leak" as old-style batteries did. In general though, a battery is activated when it is installed and then is never shut off again--it simply cranks out its energy until it is spent. Again, for some batteries this can still be quite a long time.

The most common use for alchemical batteries is basic light and heat in people's homes and shops and offices. A single mid-sized battery can light an entire home for several months, and a typical family might need only 2 or 3 similar sized batteries to keep them warm through the winter.

The newest use for these batteries are technomantic refrigerators and freezers and other cooling systems. Cooling systems tend to use quite a lot of power, and for the non-technomantic who utilize them, they are very difficult to adjust. A wealthy family with technomantic air-conditioning, would have a technician activate the system at the beginning of the hot season, and then deactivate it again in the fall, and the whole system would operate at full power for the entire time. Certainly, a person could adjust the temperature by directing the cooling power outside when it gets too cold, but doing so doesn't cut the power usage.

Scavengin'
Going off topic here to talk about resources.

95+% of the world's population disappears and new wild-lands spring up everywhere. Resources in many areas will be abundant.

Roaming the plains of the old American midwest would be herds of wild cattle and wild hogs. They haven't had time to lose their domesticated nature, so for the most part, they're easy pickins. Wolves and mountain lions and other large predators would be thriving and common with so much easy food and Man no longer around to drive them off.

For metal, ceramic, wooden and other durable items, the easiest way to obtain them is by scavenging. There are rows upon rows of empty houses out there, some still full of their old owners' possessions. After 30 years, we're probably just about running out of such resources, but that also means we've had 30 years for a culture of scavenging to develop in many areas.

I'm suddenly imagining a scavenging goblin tribe that surrounds itself with broken pieces of fallen suburbia. The great goblin king comes forward in Bermuda shorts and a red Hawaiian print shirt, looking like a hick tourist at Disneyland

Damage Done
Perhaps a third of the original rail system survived the tumult of the Spellcoming, leaving many areas cut off and the transcontinental lines gone. Nearly every major thriving city is now close to either a rail head or a river.

High tensile strength steel does still exist, but not quite in the form you're looking for. Damascus type blades and Japanese wave-forging (I think that's what the technique for making katanas is called) have survived unchanged. But industrial-tech high tensile steel has softened, becoming like normal steel. This has also made many modern skyscrapers dangerously unstable.

Also, modern construction (tyvek strapped over polyboard crap) houses didn't fare very well duing the techdeath.

To The Skies
Also, our aerodynamics are pretty much intact. Gliders would be easy to build, although we'd no longer have access to the lightweight composite materials--plastics, fiberglass, etc. If you could get a working propulsion system, you could achieve true flight, but the propulsion would probably need to be magical. Electrics wouldn't have the power needed, and steam driven turbines would be too large and clunky to be feasible for flight.

But what about dirigibles? Do hydrogen and helium still have their lighter-than-air properties? If so, then airships could be a more common sight.

Dirigibles, gliders and technomagical devices are beginning to fill the sky, along with tamed flying beasts and death-defying spellcasters. Most of the flying machines depend on Terran aerodynamics with a boost of Martayan magic to keep them aloft.

The comforts of Home
Lighting and heat in a rich house would be a combination of continual flame spells and alchemical batteries. While more powerful creatures are harder to summon, magic-users of every stripe discovered that there are lesser creatures that can be summoned. A one-hit die fire elemental could heat a house. A one-hit die air elemental can create a cooling breeze.

Shootin' Irons
Modern gunpowder and primers no longer work, but matchlocks and flintlocks, along with the kind of gunpowder used 150 years ago, do.

In addition to the regular guns, there are a couple of other 'common' weapons.

The wrist-cutter is a dirty little weapon that's strapped to the forearm. It fires shuriken with a 30' range rank and d3 damage.

Flywheels have been used for power supplies. The dwarves have built heavy crossbows that use a flywheel to crank back the firing arms very quickly. They're basically heavy versions of repeating crossbows.

Also, several 1st level spells have found their way into technomagical weapons. As an example, Magic Missile "wands" are about the size of a modern rifle and hold ten charges in an alchemical battery.

In order to use technomagical devices. The Use Magical Device skill is now available to all classes. It still remains a cross class skill. Also, you can take a feat to be able to use any one technomagical device.

A firearm is an exotic weapon.

Pistol 100gp. Takes a full turn to load powder and shot into the pistol. Does d10 damage with an x3 critical and a 50’ rank. Powder is 3gp to the shot and musket balls are 1gp each.

Breech Pistol 135 to 150gp. Takes a move equivalent to break the action and load one or both barrels. Does d10 damage with an x3 critcal and a 50’ rank. Cassette rounds are 7gp each.

Revolving Pistol is 300gp. It does d8 damage, same crit and range. Revolvers have four large chambers that each contain a cassette. A single cassette can be loaded into the chamber opposite the firing chamber as a move equivalent action or all chambers can be reloaded as a full round action.

Single shot rifles are 150 gp, do d12 with a x3 critical and a 150' rank. They take a full round to reload.

Breech rifles have two barrels, do d12 x3 crit over 150' and cost 200gp.

Repeating rifles have a 'clip' with four or five rounds. They do d10, x3 crit, 150' rank. A repeating rifle costs 450gp and is cantankerous.

Blunderbuss and shotgun type weapons are feasible, I need to get some details for them.

I am thinking about adding some rules for shooting a firearm type weapon in close combat. I was thinking about a damage bonus or maximum damage for a point blank shot, but now I am not sure.


Sound and Light - Repeater Crystals
Another technology that has sprung up in the years since the Spellcoming are transmitting crystals. Similar to crystal balls, these technomagical crystals can

transmit what they say a great distance. Each crystal only sends its signal (sound

and light) to its mate.

They are used mostly to transmit live performances, such as plays and musicians. Old theaters are full of crystals that relay them far and wide. At the other end are the skeletal remains of televisions or larger crystals that present the images. The space behind a television may be filled with dozens of repeater crystals in an expensive house.

There have been other uses for such crystals. Some of them have been used as sort of a telescope or spying device, transmitting images and sound back to the holder of the first crystal.
Bethyaga the genius wrote: These technomantic constructs will transmit sound and images remotely over distances. The crystals come in pairs, and each pairs can receive and transmit only to its partner. Should one break or the pair be separated, a lone crystal may be tuned to a new partner, and the rewiring and rituals involved will be about one-fourth the cost of constructing a whole set of the same quality. Retuning obviously severs any contact with the original partner.

Crystals come in a variety of styles and qualities. Ranges vary, but at most, a good crystal can transmit only a few miles. Long distance communication requires crystals tuned to transmit along wires (old-style telegraph cables). Some crystals are limited to sound only--these are usually special-purpose devices. Most though do full audio and visual. Again, volume and clarity can vary with quality. These crystals can work by themselves, but normally they are mounted in a larger device that resembles either a radio or television or projector or telephone. Using a crystal by itself, gives very tinny, low-quality sound, and the visual image is small and distorted, as it must be viewed in the facets of the crystal itself. When mounted in another device, the quality improves to that of pre-fall AV technology.

To use a repeater crystal set, a trained technomantic technician must activate one of the two crystals--it can be on either end. The technician may choose to send only, receive only, or send and receive. The technician may also choose to rotate the 'view' seen from either crystal. The view may be in any direction around the sending crystal. For some reason, the housing device for the crystal never obstructs its own view, and it may see 360 degrees around itself. The technician may also 'zoom' the view, but usually no more than 2x magnification. Activating, deactivating, or view changes are all full actions for a technician, but once it is set in motion, it will operate independently until a technician stops it. The tech can make changes to either crystal in the pair.

If the crystal is mounted in a larger device, then there will be sufficient knobs, buttons, dials, etc that any tech can operate it without problem. If trying to operate a naked crystal, then the operator must make a [Tech Skill] roll with a base DC of 15.

In the rare case of dual operators working at cross purposes, they would make opposed skill checks based on their [Tech Skill].

Because of the paired nature of the crystals, an interesting phenomenon has occured in some communities trying to establish a communications net: the need for old-time switchboard operators. In these communities, those who can afford it buy their own crystal pair, and one of the pair is kept by the switchboard in a central location. Then if you wish to contact anyone, you contact the operator, and the operator will patch your switchboard crystal into the switchboard crystal of the person you wish to contact. Of course, when you make a link like this through two sets of crystals, the quality drops way off, the video is almost non-existent, but the audio is more than enough for basic conversation.

When transmitting by wire over long distance, one still loses quite a bit in transmission. It's been found that video is non existent after a couple miles. Audio as well begins to degrade after about 6 to 10 miles. Beyond 10 miles, operators have found themselves again reduced to Morse code--simple on/off dot/dash type communication. Where unbroken lines can be found, this Morse telemancy has been found to work up to 180 miles. Conceivably, it could go further, but no one's been able to test that.

Technomancers
Technomantics is a field of study in which old-style (pre-fall) technologies or similations thereof are blended with/powered by magical forces. These technomantic machines may only be utilized by those with technomantic ability/training. Strangely, although technology (from old Earth) and pure magic (of Martayak) have both been greatly weakened in this new age, their blending by way of technomancy seems to have powerful potential and is relatively simple for most characters to grasp.

Each class of technomantic item has an associated feat. Taking this feat allows the character to create, operate, repair, adjust, or--just in general--work with that type of item. Characters without the associated feats may not operate the technomantic item in any way.

Additionally, there are two skills that often come into play in working with the more complicated technomantic items--Alchemy and Technomancy. Alchemy focuses on the chemical side of things--mixing the proper substances to refine and utilize their natural chemical and magical properties. Technomancy focuses more on the mechanical and energistic side of the equation--using mechanical "high-tech" devices to manipulate and focus magical energy. Both Alchemy and Technomancy are Intelligence based skills.

Also, most skilled technomancers will also have one or more Craft or Profession skills appropriate to the technology--usually involving metalworking or something similar. Such skills are not magical or technomantic in nature, but are helpful in the construction and repair of items that will harness technomantic energy.

Magiwidgets
One Magiwidget I'm going to introduce now is the Rod of Device Control. These devices are becoming more common as the secrets of their construction are being circulated through the civilized places. A Rod of Device Control allows the average person to use their technomagical devices and gives them a +10 competence bonus to Use Magical Device. They also work at range of twenty feet. (I needed my remote control)
Eliahad wrote:The Featherfall Silk
A little piece of old world magic in the midst of all this technology. Where the pilots of the new world had to rely on cloth 'bags' to slow their descent from airborne accidents, the Windrunners of old charged their tunics with magical energy. With but a single thought they could slow their fall so that they would land harmlessly (or almost harmlessly) on the ground, and with no evidence that they had landed. (Except maybe for the wreckage of their vehicles.

It's simply a piece of clothing imbued with the ability to cast Feather Fall on the wearer. That's it, nothing special here guys...I just thought that a certain breed of character would want one. (40gp, one shot)


Music in Steam and Sorcery
Okay, was thinking about it and there's no reason why Victrola-type phonographs wouldn't work in the world of Steam and Sorcery. The vibrations from the needle over the record would still transfer and make sound.

Also, while plastics have lost a great deal of their strength and color, they haven't wasted away completely. A stack of records might be a prized treasure to certain collectors. And substitute 'records' have been made of hardened wax or other substances (not going to get into the thick of the tech now, don't want to) so there is a growing trade in the devices and music to play on them.

Finally, Bards have found that they can record their songs of power onto blank records. The recording only functions once, but acts just like one of their songs for a day.

Highway to Hell... Vehicles
Several different means are available for moving a ground vehicle.

1. Steam Cars - yank the engine out of a big car or truck, plead with an engineer to build you a high performance boiler and then zoom!

2. Fan Cars - yank all the unnecessary stuff out of a small car, bolt a big caged fan on the back, cast Motivate Lesser Object on the fan, Lighten on the car and then zoom!

3. Motivated Vehicles - take any car, cast motivate Greater Object on it and zoom!

4. Golemic/Construct 'Cars' - These are not in production yet, but we heard the boys in Detroit signed a deal with a Dwarven firm to bring one out sometime soon. It's a construct, with a frame and wheels. It needs constant powering from a large alchemical battery, and it's horrendously expensive, but it will zoom like the rest of them.

Technomancer Theories
Okay, here's a quick rundown on the approximate size and weight of devices Technomancers need to prepare their "Theories". I'm not going into GP cost at this point as it's their own work and the parts are usually quite cheap.

Widgets (0-level) need a device the size of a lighter or pocketwatch. The spell Ghost Sound might require an old speaker or microphone maybe two inches across.

1st level theories need something about the size of a hardback book. Magic Missile is often crafted into an old gun from before the spellcoming.

2nd level theories need something about the size of a boom-box or toolkit. Keen Edge might be a specially designed scabbard. Enlighten might use an ensorcelled set of weights and measures. These are only necessary to prepare the spell. They also usually have a widget-sized device to cast the spell when needed.

3rd level theories get difficult. In order to prepare a 3rd level theory, a technomancer needs a device about the size of a portable generator, along with a power supply. Arcane lock might require an old key-lathe. Water Breathing would probably need something like a set of old compressed gas cylinders and some regulating equipment. To cast these spells would need something the size of a widget to cast.

Finally, 4th level theories are quite large. The device necessary is about the size of a small car engine, complete with a power supply or several fragile components. Each of these spells has a uniquely designed device about the size of something for a first level theory to cast. Lightning Bolt, for example, needs a large set of attuning crystals and chemical batteries to prepare the theory. And to cast, a zinc and copper wand with a rubber grip is required.

(These are just examples, every technomancer develops their own theories and devices.)

Getting Fitted for the Future
There's a lot of new armor for Steam and Sorcery, here are two examples

Hide armor made out of old tires.
A double layer of denim sandwiching a mithril weave.

Fun for everyone
I think, given the rules that are set up, there's no reason why Roller Coasters, Ferris Wheels and other such fun midway beasties don't work anymore. Sure, power is a problem, but there are a couple of ways to get around that (a steam engine that could push a train could push a wheel or the lifting chain of a coaster).

And I don't mean high tech coasters, I mean old wooden ones like the Screaming Eagle at Six Flags or the Beast at Kings Island.

I have no argument here, Caz. Original roller coasters were simply lifted to the top of the great first hill (and a steam driven engine would do as well as anything else), and then the rest was simple gravity.

Look at the collapsible traveling carnies we have now. I can well imagine people salvaging that equipment and finding simpler (or technomantic) ways to power them.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Okay - here's a quickie on what doesn't work in the new world. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask.

The Rules
Nuclear Physics - No, Fission and Fusion no longer function as originally believed. All Fissionable materials change into precious metals, lead or fantastic metals. The Sun still provides light and heat, but not in ways the people of Earth can understand.

Gunpowder - Yes, but modern smokeless powder no longer functions. Also, the powder is not as powerful as it was before the Change - it takes about an ounce of powder to fire a round. Finally, explosives like fulminate of mercury and other 'primers' no longer work, guns are more like the flintlocks from two hundred years ago.

Explosives - Gunpowder, guncotton and nitroglycerin all still function as explosives, but their explosive power is diminished. Materials like plastic explosives and other 'modern' explosives no longer work.

Internal Combustion - gasoline no longer burns hot enough to be used as a fuel. Even if a fuel source can be found - the physics that permits such a complex piece of machinery no longer function. No engines more complicated than coal or wood fired boilers function in the game world.

Plastics - No, plastics, like so many other innovations, simply do not work in the enmeshed world. Over the past thirty years, plastic items have either turned into goo or simply vanished, leaving nothing but a cloud of opalescent mist or a trail of glowing sparks. A few plastic items survived this, but they are not as resilient or colorful as they were thirty years ago.

Electronics - No electronic device works. The rules of science that allow such devices no longer exist. There are rumors of ancient machines, that used things called 'vacuum tubes', may still work. But no one has seen it for themselves.

Electricity - Electricity still works, but generating and storing it is much more difficult than it was thirty years ago. Dynamos do not work. Photocells, obviously do not work. The only way to generate electricity is through chemical or alchemical means. Electricity is still used for lights, telegraphs, and a few other functions. It is also an essential component for some technomagical devices.

High end Magic - The new world is resistant to magic on a grand scale. Minor magics (like cantrips, orisons and 1st level spells) are no harder to cast than they were before the Exodus. Spells of higher orders (2nd, 3rd & 4th level) prove to be more taxing than they once were, they cannot be cast as often without some form of assistance. The Great Spells (5th 6th & 7th) are rare and impressive - there are few living clerics or wizards who can boast of casting spells of this magnitude. They almost always require some ritual or device to complete. And the Supreme Magics (8th & 9th) are now things of legend. Even those who survived the great exodus found themselves incapable of casting these spells.

Magical Creatures - While the old world was rife with creatures whose very lifeblood was magic, this new world is less tolerant of them. The great dragons only rarely rouse themselves from slumber and only the youngest of them retain the power of flight. Many Outsiders cannot manifest in this new realm with their full power and the greatest of them are banned completely.

What races are possible for player characters?
the following races would be available as player characters: Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Orc, Aasimar, Tiefling, Lizardfolk, Bugbear, Half-celestial, Half-dragon, Centaur, Unicorn (This is an incomplete list. The complete list will be made available after I continue research through the Monster Manual)

All of the gods listed in the PHB are in the game - their powers are reduced, no 8th or 9th level spells.

Almost any religion you'd want to follow from our world would be available.

Wicca and New Agers would most likely by druids.

The Catholic Church would have Good, Healing, Luck and Sun as their domains.

Really - what ever you want, I'll accept. Perverse religions (aka I worship my lingam or my yoni) are going to get you smacked. Pick a couple of domains and roll with it.

It's been thirty years since magic started working - your local Christian Minister, assuming he survived, would be a first level cleric with regards to spell ability. The native american people would have their powers back - everybody's got some spells.

Languages

After thirty years, the languages of the New World are meshing. Common has become a world-wide language, supported by English and some trade-signing. But if you expect to convince the local Lord of the Barrio to let you pass, Spanish will serve you well.
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Post by Cazmonster »

STEAM AND SORCERY
Setting – Modern Day Earth has commingled with a world of Magic and High Fantasy. While the map still looks a lot like it did thirty years ago, there are huge changes that have taken place.

Timeline
Techdeath – Technology and advanced sciences stop working over the course of about six months. It takes almost a year for the tech level to ‘devolve’ to where it remains through the course of the game. There are massive riots through the developed world as the computers, the automobiles and the factories it depends on all grind to a halt.

Transmogrification Fever – A horrible wasting plauge seems to spring from the technology itself. It quickly infects most of the human population and it is a relentless killer, eliminating almost half of those infected in a matter of a couple of weeks. Half of those who break with the fever suffer for a few days, and then collapse, senseless. They never recover – as they draw their last breaths, their bodies are consumed in a flurry of sparks. There are many who suffer a worse fate – they are wracked with pain as their bodies transform into creatures out of myths and legends: goblins, giants, dragons and terrible shape-shifters.

Spellcoming – Just as the riots settle into low-level ongoing violence, the population of the fantastic world comes across. The night sky lit with the light of a thousand swirling rainbows and was nearly as bright as day. The gates opened - oval portals that shined as bright as any star and then they came. Now called the spellcomers, these people spoke strange toungues and wore clothing and arms that most associated with a time now long lost. Those who were most like the people of Earth helped as they could, conjuring light, heat and food from the very air. But there were others, dark creatures who came to Earth with torch and sword, foul raiders and ravagers.

Landwarp – To cap it all off, there are dozens of powerful earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tidal activities as parts of the fantastic world mesh with our own. Huge portions of the world are transformed. Massive forests spring into existence where nuon were before. Whole cities blink out of reality to be replaced with lakes or hills or any number of geological features. Hills and mountains grow up out of the ground in the space of heartbeats.

Casualty Count
After the landwarp, only about ten percent of the native human population survives. The ‘good’ spellcomers increase those numbers by half. And there are the inevitable clashes between spellcomer and earther, further reducing the population. After about four years of horrible privation and wars like none had ever seen before, the ‘good guy’ population is at about six hundred thousand worldwide. The world is once again a huge wilderland, waiting to be explored.
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Post by Bethyaga »

You keep reminding me why I fell in love in the first place.

:)
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Re: OOC: Steam and Sorcery - Repost for Reference

Post by FlakJacket »

Cazmonster wrote:I'm suddenly imagining a scavenging goblin tribe that surrounds itself with broken pieces of fallen suburbia. The great goblin king comes forward in Bermuda shorts and a red Hawaiian print shirt, looking like a hick tourist at Disneyland.
Hey! I resemb*ahem*resent that! :D
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Post by Cazmonster »

Sounds like somebody's getting written into whatever British Isles supplement...
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I'm not worthy of you, Cazmonster...
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Wow, you guys are really the best.
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Post by FlakJacket »

Question about the tech level of S&S warships. Now since they've still got the records from the past, and although electronics and the like doesn't work, you'd still be able to have fairly debeloped ships wouldn't you? Since steam power still works, could you have something like steam powered Monitors or converted modern ships, only looking slightly odd with canon/gun decks?
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Post by Cazmonster »

Yes, you could most likely have a Monitor or Merrimac class vessel. However, they're going to be very risky, given the heat buildup from the boilers. Also, a good series of Rusting Grasps or one solid Bollix is going to send it to a watery grave.

I haven't been planning to use ironclads just yet, given their expense and danger. But they would make for a fantastic capital ship in a navy.
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Post by Serious Paul »

Or Iron plated galleys. Also casting the guns would be relatively easy at the exspense of accuracy, the more time and effort the better the accuracy.

This really really reminds me of the Lost Regiment books. Which is cool, since I have borrowed all eight of them from a friend of mine.


A couple of questions on culture-Is multi pantheon dieties more popular than monotheistic religions? This will influence how I do my cleric.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Religions - always a tough one.

In the Steam and Sorcery setting, polytheism is becoming stronger for two principle reasons. First, the Martayan Cosmology documented at least 20 gods of differing power levels, all of whom were in communication with mortals. Some, like Gojaruth, the benevolent Sun God, spoke to just about anyone. Others, like the unnamed Death God, were inscrutable and known only by a handful of powerful necromancers. Each of these gods had a relationship with the world and its inhabitants. There was history from the dawn of time of their actions. Most modern Martayans worshipped a principle God, and also paid obseisance to other gods based on their needs or occupation.

Second, after the spellcoming, those Earth dieties who had definable forms, and definable powers, were 'Quickened'. Worshippers who had had "personal relationships" with Gods suddenly had someone talking back, often audibly. However, the Major Western Religions (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) had no such Quickening, there is no all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God for them to talk to. This does not mean that there are not Rabbis, priest or Sihks who do not have power. In game terms treat them as clerics who follow an ideal.

So, believing in a single all-powerful God is a lot like believing in the Easter Bunny. You can do it all you want, it's not going to get you anywhere, and it certainly won't get you an Easter Bunny to talk to.
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Post by Anguirel »

Well, it isn't like wood is much safer... One good Warp Wood or any number of fire spells. There are some fun anti-metal spells though... I think it'd be fun to have a metallic ship come across a druid with a bunch of "Chill / Heat Metal" spells. Or a higher-level equivalent.

Sea warfare is likely to be a lot more deadly unless you can store up counter-spells... A cannon ball with fireball attached landing in the other ships cannon deck or powder magazine is going to be devestating. Even just the equivalent of burning hands would be enough flame to cause a problem if it were close enough to the other ship's powder. A mage casting the spell through the hole when the opposing ships cannons are presented to fire would work as well, though that could be countered by the other ship's mage a bit more easily. Maybe some sort of anti-flame powder kegs?
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Post by Serious Paul »

I was simply thinking in terms of production, and mass production. Having no idea how common magic is, it sounds really common in this setting-maybe even an essential daily tool, there are always down sides.

Think of how long, even with magic it would take to build a fleet of even iron plated ships, let alone a true ironsides. The cool thing is train engines would work just as good on them, with little difference. So if you can make the one, the other is most likely just as easy.

That brings into question natural resources-making this stuff would require lots of steel-that means iron ore, coal, zinc, lead, etc...Also that means skilledlabor who would need a place to live, food to eat, and etc...That means a city.

Anyways I am babbling now.
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Post by FlameBlade »

I suddenly got this idea...I'd imagine that there is no such record at the moment, but this could be possible within 20 years...

Dwarven Technomancer working with Human technomancer on creating computer-like devices.

It's possible to grab crystals similar to repeater crystals that store information, and perhaps reduce them to simplest form which is two numbers. In other words, is crystal on, or off? I'd imagine that there would be computer out there, but it would take few days to obtain an answer to complicated problem that involves the new world. Due to amount of repeater crystals needed to create a computer, it would take many years to set all crystals in place such that it may behave like a computer in the former modern world.

Regarding physics. I would assume that the physics just plain reverted to old ol' Newtonian physics with new branches to research into, but not electricity, and stuff like that. When I say Newtonian physics, I'm only referring to velocity, acceleration, laws of motion, projectile motion, and of course, rotational effect on moving objects on rotating stuff.
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Post by FlakJacket »

For computers I could see something like the bastard child of the union between upgraded Babbage Analytical Engines and magic.
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Post by FlameBlade »

indeed. That's quite what I am thinking, Flak :)
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Post by Cazmonster »

Serious Paul wrote:I was simply thinking in terms of production, and mass production. Having no idea how common magic is, it sounds really common in this setting-maybe even an essential daily tool, there are always down sides.

Think of how long, even with magic it would take to build a fleet of even iron plated ships, let alone a true ironsides. The cool thing is train engines would work just as good on them, with little difference. So if you can make the one, the other is most likely just as easy.

That brings into question natural resources-making this stuff would require lots of steel-that means iron ore, coal, zinc, lead, etc...Also that means skilledlabor who would need a place to live, food to eat, and etc...That means a city.

Anyways I am babbling now.
And that's okay that you babble. Ironclads would be very rare, almost vanishingly so, just for the reasons you have stated. It will take a city, a large one, to create vessels like these. It is possible that transatlantic travel has diminished to adventurers as of the Spellcoming (although this is unlikely, as Martayak's largest civilization is based around an archipelago) I had not envisioned any 'kingdom' having sufficient resources at 30 years to be mass producing armories, especially naval ones.

Spell slinging would indeed be deadly, but perhaps not as bad as some of you fear. Any good ship's mage is going to have fire spells prepared, not to destroy the opposition, but to counter any spells thrown at his own ship. (I will be saying that magic-laden shot can be countered.) Also, the Quench spell would be of particular use in firefighting.
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Post by Cazmonster »

FlakJacket wrote:For computers I could see something like the bastard child of the union between upgraded Babbage Analytical Engines and magic.
That is possible. In fact, the technomancers and wizards may find out that they need to create a vast and powerful computational engine in order to finally pierce the difficulties of 8th and 9th level magics. And many things can go wrong with a machine that powerful...
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Post by Cazmonster »

FlameBlade wrote:I suddenly got this idea...I'd imagine that there is no such record at the moment, but this could be possible within 20 years...

Dwarven Technomancer working with Human technomancer on creating computer-like devices.

It's possible to grab crystals similar to repeater crystals that store information, and perhaps reduce them to simplest form which is two numbers. In other words, is crystal on, or off? I'd imagine that there would be computer out there, but it would take few days to obtain an answer to complicated problem that involves the new world. Due to amount of repeater crystals needed to create a computer, it would take many years to set all crystals in place such that it may behave like a computer in the former modern world.

Regarding physics. I would assume that the physics just plain reverted to old ol' Newtonian physics with new branches to research into, but not electricity, and stuff like that. When I say Newtonian physics, I'm only referring to velocity, acceleration, laws of motion, projectile motion, and of course, rotational effect on moving objects on rotating stuff.
Repeater Crystals could in fact work. You'd just need a way to 'switch' them on and off...

Holy Crap! You could just use punch cards!!

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Post by Salvation122 »

Cazmonster wrote:Second, after the spellcoming, those Earth dieties who had definable forms, and definable powers, were 'Quickened'. Worshippers who had had "personal relationships" with Gods suddenly had someone talking back, often audibly. However, the Major Western Religions (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) had no such Quickening, there is no all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God for them to talk to. This does not mean that there are not Rabbis, priest or Sihks who do not have power. In game terms treat them as clerics who follow an ideal.
What about Jesus, or Mohamad? Both seem to fill the roll of Divine Emissary.
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Post by 3278 »

Caz and Flame, you both know what the difference engine is, right?
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Post by Bethyaga »

I don't know if this is quite coherent yet. It's been rattling around in my head for a few days, and I finally just spewed it out in type. It's a way of explaining away the scientific/consistency issues with Steam and Sorcery by simply stating the paradox explicitly as part of the game universe. It also then allows Caz to do most of whatever the fuck he pleases without worrying about someone saying, "Well sure, but if that's how X works now, then life as we know it would cease to exist."

From the collected letters of Dr. Marjorie Dale:

I have come to the point where I wish I could surrender. In the past decade, little by little, step by excruciating step, the beliefs that formed the very core of my self have been chipped away. And slowly—ever so slowly—I have been forced to accept the impossible.

Fifteen years ago, the world in which I had lived for over six decades came to a very abrupt and very real end. Now, do not mistake this for hyperbole or for the ramblings of an addled old woman. Our world—my world—the Earth came to an end with the Spellcoming. The existence that surrounds me now is very similar in appearance to that world, and many, myself included, have believed that this is still the Earth on which we walk, but that is merely an illusion. As is, I fear, everything I have known.

The thing that struck me and drove me to the place I am now was the external similarity between our world and that of the outsiders. Prior to the Spellcoming, Earth and Martaya were extremely similar in form. Both had oceans and mountains and deserts. Both had trees and birds and fishes. Both had people. The level of similarity was so extreme as to be beyond coincidence. It was not just that one could find dogs in both worlds, but that one could even find the same breeds of dogs. Dalmations, Labradors, terriers, dachshunds. The people, the plants, the animals—all of them were identical to the point of being interchangeable… interbreedable. This was obviously not a case of parallel evolution. The elements—the pieces—of these worlds were identical in form even while so many other things were so different.

Somehow, the forms were the same, while the underlying structures were profoundly different. Our world—the Earth—was powered by physics. My entire adult life was dedicated to the exploration of the forces that bound our world together. Everything we could see we could explain by the structure and interaction of subatomic particles and forces. It was elegant and wondrous. I often lost myself in humble wonder at the fact that these myriad tiny particles could dance together so as to form stars and planets and, ultimately, life. Amazing. Except that in retrospect it seems that the whole thing may have been incidental. The entire field of physics only an afterthought to justify existence after the fact.

Martaya, on the other hand, ran on magic. Their world was bound together by primal elemental forces that enervated the souls of all things that existed. Air, earth, fire, water, life, death, law and chaos. The interplay of these forces shaped everything. It took me many years to see this as more than simply a metaphor. I assumed, quite understandably, that Martaya was a world much like ours—that their bodies were made up of atoms like my own. Magic was simply some previously unknown force, I reasoned, and their “primal forces” were simply a product of their primitive understanding of the universe, much like a sixteenth century alchemist who thought all matter arose from four basic elements. But slowly, I came to realize that this was more than simply a philosophy or a religion. It truly was the basis for their reality. From discussions I have had with Martaya’s own physicists—powerful theoretical mages—I now believe that Martaya had no atoms.

And this is where I began to be truly frightened. For as far as I can tell, there is no way to prove that our current world—this Earth-Martaya amalgam—has any atoms at all. As yet, there is no way to tell. The instruments and tools that we relied on on both of the old worlds have ceased to function in an appropriate capacity. But some things still function well enough to show that things are disturbingly different now. As a simple test, take a prism and use it to separate light into its component colors. Prisms function this same way in both worlds. A slightly more complex tool allows you to examine the light from a single source—such as a star or the sun. If you can examine the rainbow of light that results, you will note dark bands where certain colors are missing. The pattern of these bands can tell what materials—what elements—are being burned to make that light. This worked well on Earth, and there are a multitude of textbooks still around that will show you how to do this and how to interpret the results. Sadly, it all means nothing now. In this new world, there are no dark bands. Our old sun, which used to burn so brightly off of hydrogen and helium, has now been replaced by a new sun, one that provides the same light and the same heat, but which no longer shows any atomic signature and which probably no longer runs on nuclear fusion. We’ve seen quite dramatically that our nuclear devices are completely inert in this new world, and there is no reason to think that the same is not true of the sun.

And yet we continue on. I think therefore, I am. I existed in the world of atoms and physics, and I continue to exist in this altered place. But why?

As disturbing as it may be to some, the only possible explanation I find is that somehow, both of these worlds (and heaven knows how many others) were created to appear a specific way, and only later were the mechanisms that run these worlds designed and implemented. Someone, some thing, some force, decided that Earth should look exactly so. And after they were done, someone asked, “Sure, but what makes it go?” And the answer came, “How about physics?” This designer then borrowed some of the same elements and made Martaya look strikingly similar in many ways to Earth. And when asked, “Physics again?” the reply was, “No, this time I think I’ll say it was magic.”

Such an explanation seems capricious, but it captures well the contrary nature of the entire situation. And certainly, this is not to say that we are required to have some Creator-God up there who put together all the worlds of existence, but it does mean that our current understanding of causality and the nature of the universe is very very limited and very very flawed.

Of course, once we come to an understanding of the differences between the two worlds, we then come to the strange nature of the new world that they spawned. Neither the old physics nor the old magic are enough to sufficiently explain our current world. Some elements still hold true, but most don’t. The new laws of the world are turning out to be stranger than any could have imagined. Some things remain unchanged. Some things are a hybrid or blend. But so many things are simply different, as if physics met magic, and where they could not agree, they simply bent and twisted and turned each other at right angles until something happened that made sense.

We are not yet close to understanding how this whole mess works yet, much less being able to understand how two such disparate worlds came together in the first place. But I am confident that the physicists—the wizards—the technomancers of tomorrow will slowly fit the fractured pieces together and once again develop a coherent picture of this world we live in. I am overwhelmed by it all, and often wish to never have to delve into such deep waters again. But then that other part of me searches and hopes every day to see that next new thing before I run out of days to see them in.
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Post by 3278 »

Yup-yup. Good stuff. That's the same sort of thing I've envisioned for a similar-[ish] setting I play in my head with, and for S&S. And, for that matter, Shadowrun: when you combine two parallel dimensional sheaves with two differing base modalities, the result will be a third, combined modality which may not even be internally consistant, which is one reason for the sort of reality warps common to the genre, if "real life + magic" can be said to be a genre.
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Post by Thorn »

Bethie. We love you.

We're getting in the car now, and we're going to Nebraska to come make sweet sweet love to that giant pulsing brain of yours.

You might want to pick up some lube.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Salvation122 wrote:
Cazmonster wrote:Second, after the spellcoming, those Earth dieties who had definable forms, and definable powers, were 'Quickened'. Worshippers who had had "personal relationships" with Gods suddenly had someone talking back, often audibly. However, the Major Western Religions (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) had no such Quickening, there is no all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God for them to talk to. This does not mean that there are not Rabbis, priest or Sihks who do not have power. In game terms treat them as clerics who follow an ideal.
What about Jesus, or Mohamad? Both seem to fill the roll of Divine Emissary.
Right, and they talked about all powerful, all knowing, all seeing Gods. If that was real their Gods would have done anything in the thousands of years of recorded history.
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Post by Serious Paul »

Now personally I like the pantheistic approach. Not only does it add to the overall sense of Chaos and rebirth (Your old gods are dead!)but it also shakes up traditional power blocs. I realize Sal you were just asking a question in the intrest of realism, so don't take any of this as personally directed at you.

It also means as a GM you don't have to deal with the land mind subject of religion-as a game developer thats good too.

It also does not prevent people from saying or believing that pantheistic gods are multifaceted representations of "GOD". Zeus is gods leadership, Ares his anger, dreckcetera.
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Post by FlameBlade »

Poked around a little...

this seems to be a good source of information for Difference Engine.

Thanks, 3278 for bringing up Difference Engine...Difference Engine is basically a simple computer driven by steam...and I'd imagine that...we would have near-true computer with repeater crystals combined with Difference Engine...
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Post by Salvation122 »

Cazmonster wrote:Right, and they talked about all powerful, all knowing, all seeing Gods. If that was real their Gods would have done anything in the thousands of years of recorded history.
Well, there's a lot of precedent for the sort of interventionist-deity approach you're taking with the Yahweh of the Old Testament.

I dunno. I see Mohammad himself leading a jihad of Paladins, Clerics, and Warpriests against the infidel demons who have plauged this earth, and I think "That would be really badass." I suspect that this is a case of NIMC, and I'll let it go, but I think it would be a very interesting campaign idea for an area that is geographically a very important trade route.

Edit: Even better! Yahweh, in his Old Testament form, is back, and He's rather angry at the Gentiles for following the blasphemous teachings of Christianity and Islam. He sees what's happened to the Jews, and starts smiting. Interesting, without as many politically sensitive points.
Flameblade wrote:It's possible to grab crystals similar to repeater crystals that store information, and perhaps reduce them to simplest form which is two numbers. In other words, is crystal on, or off? I'd imagine that there would be computer out there, but it would take few days to obtain an answer to complicated problem that involves the new world. Due to amount of repeater crystals needed to create a computer, it would take many years to set all crystals in place such that it may behave like a computer in the former modern world.
But passing information from crystal to crystal corrupts the information, essentially introducing packet loss on a huge scale. Maybe this information is simple enough that it's lossless, or virtually so, but as stated it would be difficult to make a computer; if you can't pass data, you can't really do much.
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Post by Bethyaga »

Second, after the spellcoming, those Earth dieties who had definable forms, and definable powers, were 'Quickened'. Worshippers who had had "personal relationships" with Gods suddenly had someone talking back, often audibly. However, the Major Western Religions (Christianity, Judaism, Muslim) had no such Quickening, there is no all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God for them to talk to.
This Quickening is disturbing. There have been thousands of gods in human history, and I'm assuming that only a handful of them (20-50) gain any substance at all, and even then, many are mostly insubstantial, and not up to the level of Martayan gods. It's touchy ground, but it might behoove you to decide on most of the gods that have been quickened in this manner--which have become real and which have been subsumed by the old Martayan gods. For example, assuming Ra still had a huge following, would he quicken, or would he simply become an aspect of the Martayan sun/father god who is, in most respects, very similar to Ra?

But if gods can be created purely out of faith, then there's no reason that the monotheistic religions might not see the avatars and messengers of their faiths gain form. Jews, Muslims and Christians all share a common vision of angels and devils.

And what of our beliefs in ghosts and the like? Such things existed on Martaya, and if sheer belief can create whole gods, can it also give life to ghosts?

Just things to think about. They make my head hurt, but someone will have to clarify them all eventually.
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Post by Wildfire »

Personally, I'd kind of like to see the old gods kept around, the Egyptian pantheon, the Norse, but perhaps it is a more limited scale thing, pehaps they only have substance and power in a sort of 'influence bubble' where they were worshipped a lot, the Egyptian gods only have a real presence in Thebes and Valley of Kings, etc.

They might be aspects of Martayan gods in some ways, and maybe clerics of them can get some form of aid from similar dieties, but maybe take a tack of there needs to be a certain concentration of worship to allow a god to awaken/be created, and a lot more to ever gain any real power, hence the Martyan gods are quite powerful since everyone from Matayak believes in then, more earth gods are small if anything due to doubt and few solid believers.

Of course, a lot of this view is tainted with the whole Egypt project, but I figure can't hurt to throw my two cents in.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Salvation122 wrote:
Flameblade wrote:It's possible to grab crystals similar to repeater crystals that store information, and perhaps reduce them to simplest form which is two numbers. In other words, is crystal on, or off? I'd imagine that there would be computer out there, but it would take few days to obtain an answer to complicated problem that involves the new world. Due to amount of repeater crystals needed to create a computer, it would take many years to set all crystals in place such that it may behave like a computer in the former modern world.
But passing information from crystal to crystal corrupts the information, essentially introducing packet loss on a huge scale. Maybe this information is simple enough that it's lossless, or virtually so, but as stated it would be difficult to make a computer; if you can't pass data, you can't really do much.
Right - but in this particular example, since the information is at most one of nine colors of light, and the information is only travelling perhaps a mile at the most, packet loss would be minimized (so long as not little creature was chewing through the tubes protecting each crystal pair.
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Post by FlameBlade »

I apologize sincerely for causing the process that contributed to Cazmonster's anersyum.

But I would like to think this as a way of...changing way we look at computer...which is damn cool :)
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Re: OOC: Steam and Sorcery - Repost for Reference

Post by Anguirel »

Cazmonster wrote:I am thinking about adding some rules for shooting a firearm type weapon in close combat. I was thinking about a damage bonus or maximum damage for a point blank shot, but now I am not sure.
I was re-reading this while polishing Toyman and I realized that this line: a) never got continued; b) might be important in the Pirates game.

"Point Blank", for those unaware, if the point at which a full blank can still kill simply from the power of the muzzle blast. Having seen this in action, I can attest to the fact that it is close, but a very real thing.

For the game, I'd say any shot within 15' or so should gain an additional 1d6 subdual damage from the blast buffeting. Possibly as a 10' cone effect for short-barrels. Within 5', an additional 1d4 on top of that, maybe, or a Fort save vs. instant reduction to 0-hp and bleeding out. Not sure what you'd want to set the DC at. You could also add deafness effects even on misses.
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All that's nice and realistic, but it makes swords and armor right next to useless. The best thing that's going to happen with a firearm is that it does maximum damage. There is no game balance reason to make a gun out perform a sword when it comes to dropping people.

In fact, there we go, as of now, any point blank shot (one made in melee combat) does maximum damage.
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Post by Anguirel »

Cazmonster wrote:All that's nice and realistic, but it makes swords and armor right next to useless.
Why yes, yes guns did do that. ;)

Just to give alternate rules for when you write it up -- In theory it'd be balanced out by costing 4 gold a shot. For occasional bonuses to close-range combat (and likely drawing an attack of opportunity, as it is still a ranged attack), I'd say that about balances... You can always slice a sword all day with paying a single cent. The Muzzle-Blast bonus damage could be reduced by armor's AC bonus, making it only a real factor against unarmored targets.
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Post by Cazmonster »

Anguirel wrote:
Cazmonster wrote:All that's nice and realistic, but it makes swords and armor right next to useless.
Why yes, yes guns did do that. ;)
Go ahead, keep poking at the bear with the short stick. It's good for you.
Anguirel wrote:Just to give alternate rules for when you write it up -- In theory it'd be balanced out by costing 4 gold a shot.


Masterwork ammunition is 7gp to the shot and it doesn't automatically drop people.
Anguirel wrote:For occasional bonuses to close-range combat (and likely drawing an attack of opportunity, as it is still a ranged attack), I'd say that about balances... You can always slice a sword all day with paying a single cent. The Muzzle-Blast bonus damage could be reduced by armor's AC bonus, making it only a real factor against unarmored targets.
It's incredibly unbalanced. Thunderstones get you deafening/stunning and run a heap of gold each. There is no way that 4gp should get you deafening and bonus damage and a chance to drop somebody in a single shot especially if it's available to everybody.

No, getting maximum damage on a d8 or even a d12 weapon is quite enough.
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Bethyaga
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Post by Bethyaga »

If you wanted realism, you wouldn't be playing a game in which your ability to withstand damage automatically increases every time you learn new spells.

D&D has HP and the Class/Level system at its core. It's cinematic high fantasy. Game balance is often more important than realism.
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Post by Kai »

Besides which realism gets horridly complicated and often serves no more purpose than to make the game about as unfun as differential calculus with a pocket calculator. I like guns being simply another style of combat available in S&S and not some super uber weapon.

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Post by Threadbare »

Makes you wonder how all that "Epic Level" whosewhatsis would run in S&S. Would the character be like a someone in a John Woo movie or Rambo or similar?
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Post by Cazmonster »

If Woo was cool enough to think of gunfighters in motivated construct armor laying down suppressive fire with fireballs and lightning bolts from revolvers the size of multibarrel shotguns, then yes, that's a lot of what Epic Steam and Sorcery would look like.
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