Soo... The Ukraine

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Bonefish
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Soo... The Ukraine

Post by Bonefish »

Welp, looks like I've finally been vindicated for insisting on Russia's threat in the international world. I'm not happy about that.

So.. what to do now?

I'm headed off to work now, but when I get back, I'll elaborate on this. Til then, what do ya guys think?
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Post by 3278 »

There's no doubt they're a threat to nearby nations with ties to Russia - former Soviet states, countries with sympathetic leaders or ethnically Soviet populations - but it seems to me like the only way this becomes a threat to the international community is if the international community is stupid about it.

That said, I basically know nothing about the situation. :)
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Post by Bonefish »

Its actually a rather serious problem, one that will heavily impact the international community quite severely. See, back in 94, a few of the major powers had various nations agree to nuclear non proliferation treaty in Budapest. Ukraine was a signatory nation that gave up its rather heft nuclear arsenal in return for pledges from the US, UK, France, Germany and Russia that they would agree to ensure the territorial integrity of the Ukraine. By turning our back on the Ukraine, we effectively twll the qorld that America cannot be trustes to uphold its international treaties, and also that they only way for a smaller country to ensure its safety is with nukes.

That is a very dangerous precedent to set, because a Small nation state is more likely, in my opinion, to feel threatened enough to see nukes as a solution to problems. It also completely undercuts the international consensus that has been building on use of force, and puts us not into the cold war, but solidly back into the 19th century.

Also, if we look at Georgia/South Ossettia/Abhakaz, and now Ukraine, its clear that Putin will use any excuse to intervene in former USSR territory where Russian Nationals are at rick, even if that risk is non existent. Moldava looks to be next on the agenda, but I wouldn't be surprised if ole Pootie Poo wont escalate the situation to annex most of the Eastern Ukraine, to ensure gazprom co.trol over the pipelines.

And, i HATE to draw comparisons to Hitler, but it is true that the Germans did feel out there expansionism through twnative steps. Fist austria, then sudentland, then Czechslovakia, and then Poland. Well... this is a terrible precedent.
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Post by Bonefish »

I just dont have a soultion. I mean, econonic sanctions seem a bit double edge: europe is reliant on russian oil, and a major trade war wiuld involve oil. If europeans want to turn off the russian oil, they lose a third of their supply, and russia sales to the Chinese. The Chinese did initialy support the russians pretty hard, but backed down. Russia built a pipeline through Siberia so they can now trade with china directly and quickly. And China wants oil. Which works. In theory, economic sanctions make a lot if sense, but can we really find the willpoer to see russia fight back, econonically? Being a world supply of oil is a pretty strong economic weapon.

This, i think, has always higlighted Russias historical strength: it has manpower and resources. Sure, mismanaged, but otgerwise, russia is in just as good as a position as the us. Sure, land borders with ebemies, but the vastness of Russia is a great problem for anybody.

Militarily, Russia outnumbers us, has larger reserves and hasnt been fighting wars for the last 14years. Also, they are already positioned. We would need to build up forces anywhere, because we are facing closer to half a million russian troops in range of the ukraine. Infact, this is the war Russia would want. And it risks triggering further escalation. Air superiority isnt a given, we would have to work for it. Oh, and nukes.

But i thibk the idea of sending unmarked special forces into a cou.try, denying they are yours, then annexing the country at a gubpoint ballot ten days later is a bit uncalled for and something that isnt easily accepted. After all, the same situation exists in Moldava

I just dont see how we can de escalate this situation. Its all bad.
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Post by 3278 »

Yeah, economic sanctions basically never work. They don't hurt the decision-makers, so they're not really a good disincentive. They also build a healthy black market, which isn't really what you want happening.

In this situation, I think the UN needs to take bold and immediate action to prove what's going on, and take action about it, before other, more tinpot, leaders start to see that sovereignty doesn't mean that much if your troops don't wear badges. But if has to be a truly UN response: the US needs to stop stomping in with our boots all over the everyplace, and can't really afford to right now anyway. This is a good opportunity for the whole world to step up. Which isn't going to happen.
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Post by O-Funk! »

*Tin hat time*

Why was my first thought that the less than threatening response from the US government might be tied to the recent BP bid to open back up in gulf last week?
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Post by Bonefish »

Because conspiracy theories are stupid. The US response is weak because we ARE weak. We're caught with our pants down, our manhood shriveling up, and the Russians are laughing at us.

In all seriousness: I need more evidence than just suspicions. The US military has been downsizing like crazy, our presence in the region is minuscule, and the Russians know this. Putin felt this out with the Georgian invasion...

Heeey, speaking of the Georgian war? Anyone remember our resident Elf being all "pish posh, Russia's not any worse than the US in international relations"? Well, whens the last time the us annexed foreign territory?
I suspect that people who speak or write properly are up to no good, or homersexual, or both
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