A question about morals, ethics, and whatnot

Van Der Litreb · Post by **Van Der Litreb** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:48 pm

Aristotle, Kant, and Nietzsche are considered some of our most important philosophers, but considered women to be worth a pile of dirt.
Richard Wagner composed some of the most impressive (and certainly the longest) operas ever made, but was also horribly antisemitic, as per the times.
H.P. Lovecraft wrote unique and highly influential stories, but had strong racist opinions, often voiced in his literature.
Mother Teresa built hospices for the many poor all over India, but used them for Catholic missionary work rather than actual treatments.
Mahatma Gandhi achieved amazing things through non-violent civil disobedience, but considered Africans to be subhuman.
Anne Frank wrote one of the most touching and important books ever published, but didn't pay rent the whole time she wrote it.
Frank Miller wrote some fantastic comic books, but has since become a mysogynistic douche bag.
Orson Scott Card has written highly popular (and supposedly very good) science fiction novels, but believes homosexuality is a disease which should be outlawed.
Martin Luther told the the Pope and the Catholic church to stuff it, but also believed that Jews should be forcibly evicted from Europe.

The list goes on, but I'm sure you get the picture.

Now, the question(s) is this: at which point are you able to appreciate something despite it being tainted by, er, ethically incompatible issues? Are excuses such as "Oh, he was just a product of his times." acceptable?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:10 pm

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Even the greatest of people are only human, with human prejudices, flaws, and stupidities. That doesn't normally detract from their achievements or impact on history, or mean that the people or their faults should be demonized or forgotten. As long as those failings are recognized, their achievements can still be celebrated, while their errors become warnings against the very views they held.

And, sometimes, you can't separate the person, their triumphs and their failings from each other. Lovecraft (I'm writing an essay that deals with this, so HPL is on my mind) was a racist, sometimes to an embarrassing degree - but that virulent strain became the seed of some of his most important work in stories like The Shadow Over Innsmouth.

Of course, the problem is when the flaws overcome the achievement - people that say they admire Hitler for his successes are glossing over the tremendous scope of his crimes and failings, both as leader of Germany and as a human being.

Are excuses such as "Oh, he was just a product of his times." acceptable?

As an explanation, it is acceptable; as an excuse, it is not. There is, for example, at no point in time in the history of the American colonies when someone did not preach against slavery.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:42 pm

Van Der Litreb wrote:Now, the question(s) is this: at which point are you able to appreciate something despite it being tainted by, er, ethically incompatible issues? Are excuses such as "Oh, he was just a product of his times." acceptable?

I'll be honest my like for a piece of art, or social commentary should not be confused with a like for the person making it. I purposefully try not to do a lot of looking at the political views or personal beliefs of the people making the art I like because all too often it's disappointing at best.

So for example I really like Tool. I know the lead singer makes wine-but that's about as far as it goes for me. I couldn't tell you if he's married or has kids, I can't even name the rest of the band. I'm actually a little turned of by the cult of celebrity my nation seems to be so happy pursuing most of the time.

As for justification-well I have no answers here. Like Bob, I agree that celebrities are just people. And people...well let's just say I don't hold the highest expectations of people and call it good.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:41 pm

How do I "like" Paul's comment? It's basically what I'd say.

Sometimes you have to appreciate the art or whatever, independent of the artist. I know some douche-bag artists and musicians, but I still like their work. I just can't stand them.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:12 pm

As I reread my post I guess I should I say this too: I am somewhat a moral relativist. I do think morality is a flexible thing, and one mans sin is another habit. This is not to say I think there is no good or evil, because I've seen some things that I do believe I've seen some pretty damned inhuman and evil people. But as it applies to this discussion:

Yeah I can enjoy a Mel Gibson movie, even though it seems he's tried really hard to become a human turd. On the flip side, I also don't go out of my way to support his endeavors with my free time and dollars.

I enjoyed Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game", but I don't agree with his stance on sexuality. Now there's a difference between Card saying "I hate gay people", and say Pol Pot murdering a few million of his country men. One of the pysch's at the prison always says "The difference between most people and an actual psychopath isn't that they think differently-it's that the psychopath acts on those thoughts."

People can be vividly entertaining, and still have massive, even tragic flaws. Hell that basically describes every poster on this board.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:04 pm

Serious Paul wrote:Hell that basically describes every poster on this board.

I thought we agreed not to talk about my hairy feet.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:15 pm

Well that drastically limit's what we can discuss doesn't it? So any else watch the Goonies...?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:15 am

That's hilarious: Ana and I were discussing just this today. [Yes, imagine how much fun it is to be my child.] She's reading The Odyssey in school, and so we were talking about whether or not it was "right" of Odysseus to blind Polyphemus, and I asked her if she'd noticed anything about killing in the book; she noted that everyone seems pretty cavalier about it, as befits the times.

So we talked about cultural morality, and absolute morality. Chinese people bred our dog to fight in pits; were they wrong to do so, in a time when dogs were considered property? Will we be similarly "wrong" in the future, for eating cows and enslaving horses? If we can forgive the Chinese for not knowing better, for behaving according to the dictates of their culture, can we forgive Michael Vick?

We don't have an answer. Well, I do, but as I told her, almost no one likes it: we invented morality. It's not objective, or independent of humanity; it didn't exist before we did. We're all a product of our time and place, and I accept that of everyone, and have little difficulty appreciating their works without judgment, at least on my more rational days.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:47 am

3278 wrote:If we can forgive the Chinese for not knowing better, for behaving according to the dictates of their culture, can we forgive Michael Vick?

I'll think about it, if he brings it home.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:57 am

3278 wrote:Well, I do, but as I told her, almost no one likes it: we invented morality. It's not objective, or independent of humanity; it didn't exist before we did. We're all a product of our time and place, and I accept that of everyone, and have little difficulty appreciating their works without judgment, at least on my more rational days.

This perfectly expresses how I feel.

Van Der Litreb · Post by **Van Der Litreb** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:02 pm

Thanks for the responses, but I'm a little disappointed no one commented on my Anne Frank crack.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:52 pm

Van Der Litreb wrote:Thanks for the responses, but I'm a little disappointed no one commented on my Anne Frank crack.

Seriously, fuck Anne Frank. The Ninja and I visited her house in Amsterdam and she wasn't even there.

Iantha · Post by **Iantha** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:37 am

Jeff Hauze wrote:
Serious Paul wrote:Hell that basically describes every poster on this board.
I thought we agreed not to talk about my hairy feet.

Hey! I'm the Kender-foot around here.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:49 am

Iantha wrote:Hey! I'm the Kender-foot around here.

I don't think (but honestly don't recall) kender have hairy feet. I think that's more dwarf/halfling. The Great Google didn't want to answer me (but it did give some hysterical results).

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:17 am

Jeff is right: Kender were never portrayed as hairy-footed. They often wore boots, and were a bit more elfin in description than halflings/hobbits. Less short and portly, more sized like 10 year olds.

In fact, Kender were always portrayed as a sort of arrested pre-teen, rather than the more stolid and laid-back halflings. I always saw kender as over-active, with a short attention span, a complete naivete towards danger, compulsive curiosity and klepto traits. Their homeland, for example, lacks any sort of regulation for buildings, and so Kender cities ar mishmashes of half built, half designed structures.

I actually liked Kender, because, well, i was like them at one point, and they were a bit more original than simple hobbits and halflings. I mean, sure, borrow from tolkien a bit, but why not have some different stuff too! I actually liked a LOT of Dragonlance's races: Minotaurs were not just monsters, they were PEOPLE, for example.

Iantha · Post by **Iantha** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:09 am

Ok, my bad.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:54 pm

Eh, some of us have lives, while others(such as myself) have... geekery.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:20 pm

Man, I heard a really good Anne Frank joke within the last week, too, and I can't remember what it was.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:39 am

3278 wrote:Man, I heard a really good Anne Frank joke within the last week, too, and I can't remember what it was.

Remember damnit!

I heard a good Jewish joke the other day.

Where do you send a Jewish kid with ADD?

Answer: To a concentration camp.

AtemHutlrt · Post by **AtemHutlrt** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:22 pm

I find Anne Frank jokes highly inappropriate. The poor girl's life was an absolute horror: not only did she have her diary published, which is every girl's worst nightmare, but then she didn't even get paid for it, which is every Jew's worst nightmare!

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:57 pm

AtemHutlrt wrote:I find Anne Frank jokes highly inappropriate. The poor girl's life was an absolute horror: not only did she have her diary published, which is every girl's worst nightmare, but then she didn't even get paid for it, which is every Jew's worst nightmare!

+1, Like, whatever it takes.

SumDumQuim · Post by **SumDumQuim** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:17 pm

AtemHutlrt wrote:I find Anne Frank jokes highly inappropriate. The poor girl's life was an absolute horror: not only did she have her diary published, which is every girl's worst nightmare, but then she didn't even get paid for it, which is every Jew's worst nightmare!

*encore clap*

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:24 am

AtemHutlrt wrote:I find Anne Frank jokes highly inappropriate. The poor girl's life was an absolute horror: not only did she have her diary published, which is every girl's worst nightmare, but then she didn't even get paid for it, which is every Jew's worst nightmare!

Ha ha ha! It's funny 'cause she's dead!

Van Der Litreb · Post by **Van Der Litreb** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:57 am

And incidentally still on-topic.

SumDumQuim · Post by **SumDumQuim** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:06 am

Crazy Elf wrote:
AtemHutlrt wrote:I find Anne Frank jokes highly inappropriate. The poor girl's life was an absolute horror: not only did she have her diary published, which is every girl's worst nightmare, but then she didn't even get paid for it, which is every Jew's worst nightmare!
Ha ha ha! It's funny 'cause she's dead!

Hopefully you'll be funnier then too....

WHAT? YOU KNOW YOU WERE ALL THINKING IT!!!

Kai · Post by **Kai** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:07 pm

Eh, having a terrible view/doing bad as a person != damning every decent accomplishment ever achieved. I had an argument with a friend about how Dave Thomas (of Wendy's founding) might have been kinda homophobic but that doesn't mean his adoption foundation isn't worth supporting.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:03 pm

I've had that damned Anne frank joke on my mind for weeks now. Still funny.

A question about morals, ethics, and whatnot

A question about morals, ethics, and whatnot

Re: A question about morals, ethics, and whatnot