What's your flavor?

[AtemHutlrt]

I thought this deserved it's own thread.

Most of my friends, other than Paul, the undiscriminating fuck-machine, aren't attracted to non-caucasian women [though I have seen them make the occasional exception for East-Asianers, light-skinned Middle Easterners and one very busty Turk]. Basically, as a lecherous sage once proclaimed, they are not "attracted to brown people." It's something I've never really understood, because I, in the words of another learned prophet, don't discriminate. I, in fact, have been known to regulate every shade of the ass. I'd even go as far as to say that, given the choice between only caucasian women, or only non-caucasians, I'd take the field. Yeah, I definitely would, now that I think about it. Some of this has to do with with my preferences; I like thick, curly hair, high cheekbones and full lips, so I find myself attracted to a disproportionate number of Mediterranean, African and South Asian women.

I do often joke that one may be considered not strictly heterosexual if there is such a wide swath of women you aren't willing to make the sex with, but, of course, that's absurd*. Preference is preference, and I suppose there's not much to be done about it. I may happen to think your preferences are insane, but whatever. I suppose what I'm wondering here is: are you unattracted to certain races or ethnic groups? If so, is this just a preference for which only your boner [girl-boners also apply here; I'm trying to be inclusive] can account, or do you believe there's some deeper issue at play?

*No, screw objectivity. If you are male, and don't find this attractive, you are so gay:

[Bonefish]

I would basically say that I think our tastes run quite parallel. White women just don't really hold that allure for me anymore.

[Raygun]

I'm a fan of the large-breasted, bedimpled Scandinavian type, myself. But if that were somehow no longer an option, I would have to say that I do not gravitate toward the browner-skinned folk. Sure, an individual could greatly affect the irrelevance of that, but when I think of the kind of women I'm physically attracted to, African or Indian women are not what I tend to think about. Central/South American maybe a bit moreso (they have interesting faces and cultures to me), and perhaps some of the darker-haired Mediterranean lasses, but generally speaking, I'm apt to hold with the Caucasian. Or Asian; Japanese in particular.

[UncleJoseph]

Strictly based on looks, I do not have any particular ethnic preference. I find women of all cultures, skin tones, etc. attractive. My taste in Caucasian women varies greatly too. For me, it's all about compatibility. I've found that I'm most compatible with women who've had a similar upbringing and have similar values and goals. Therefore, I tend to gravitate toward women who are more like me. This has usually resulted in me dating Caucasian women, and I'm now married to one. However, she is of Serbian descent, and has a small bit of an ethnic look. Some of my coworkers think I have some sort of fetish for women of different ethnicity, simply because I don't rule out non-whites as part of what I find attractive. I'm situated in a very homogenous group of white folks at work, and it amazes me how narrow their views can be. This isn't to say that they're racist (although some are, to different degrees), but there is a sort of "stick to their own" kind of mentality, especially when it comes to skin color.

[Ancient History]

To be absolutely honest, I do find on average I am more attracted to Caucasian women than those of other ethnicity. That's not to say I am exclusively or always attracted to white women over others. Every woman has attractive features. Things that tend to put me off are generally obesity, bad teeth, a shrill voice and poor attitude - things that transcend ethnicity.

[3278]

There are most definitely individual women of other ethnicities that I find highly attractive, but as a general trend I have a pretty narrow "type," and the further you deviate from it - in skin tone, facial structure, body type, etc - the less attractive I find the woman in question. This definitely isn't restricted to brown women, it just happens that they're further from my ideal that most.

[3278]

Some of this has to do with with my preferences; I like thick, curly hair, high cheekbones and full lips, so I find myself attracted to a disproportionate number of Mediterranean, African and South Asian women.

Yeah, see, what it seems like, then, is that your "type" includes characteristics which are commonly present in women of other ethnicities; it seems like it'd be easier for you to find women of these other ethnicities attractive, then.

I do often joke that one may be considered not strictly heterosexual if there is such a wide swath of women you aren't willing to make the sex with, but, of course, that's absurd*.

Yeah, I don't find fat chicks as attractive as skinny chicks, but I'm still straight. Some guys like fat chicks and don't like skinny chicks: they're still straight. Some guys like small breasts, others large, some tall girls, others short. Some guys are attracted to anything with two or more X chromosomes; others are more selective. I don't think homosexuality tracks preference, unless it's preference for penis.

*No, screw objectivity. If you are male, and don't find this attractive, you are so gay:

Oh, god. Gross. I am gleefully queer, then. Maybe it's the angle or something, but she looks like the face gods were nodding off while they put her together, slumping a bit here, shaving off some there, not fitting everything together quite right. That has nothing to do with being brown - or coffee-with-cream - and everything to do with being mushed-up. And if I can't run my fingers through a girl's hair, the deal's off, whether that's because of braids or nap or dreads or hair spray or just short hair. Yuck.

[Jeff Hauze]

And if I can't run my fingers through a girl's hair, the deal's off, whether that's because of braids or nap or dreads or hair spray or just short hair. Yuck.

I do seem to recall you breaking this rule in the past, at least regarding short hair.

[DV8]

I always think it's strange when guys have a racist libido. I have to admit that I have preferences, but no strong dislikes. Like, east african women -- Etheopia, Sudan, Somalia -- I don't particularly enjoy their features. But then again, they've got Iman.

[Bonefish]

Oh, god. Gross. I am gleefully queer, then. Maybe it's the angle or something, but she looks like the face gods were nodding off while they put her together, slumping a bit here, shaving off some there, not fitting everything together quite right. That has nothing to do with being brown - or coffee-with-cream - and everything to do with being mushed-up. And if I can't run my fingers through a girl's hair, the deal's off, whether that's because of braids or nap or dreads or hair spray or just short hair. Yuck.[/quote]

Conversely, I think she's absofucking gorgeous. She's a fox. Course, after talking to Atem last night, I think we've come to the realization that we are firmly on the opposite spectrum as you. The things you'd find attractive, we wouldn't.

[3278]

And if I can't run my fingers through a girl's hair, the deal's off, whether that's because of braids or nap or dreads or hair spray or just short hair. Yuck.

I do seem to recall you breaking this rule in the past, at least regarding short hair.

Well, that's the thing. My ideal is, for example, waist-length hair somewhere in color between bleached paper and corn silk, but a whopping, I don't know, two of my thousand girlfriends have had that hair. I like a girl to be three to six inches shorter than I am, but I've dated a girl my height, and I've dated a girl a foot shorter than I am. My ideal isn't hard-and-fast. I've even dated brown girls, if that can be believed!

[3278]

Conversely, I think she's absofucking gorgeous. She's a fox.

Dude, it looks like someone misapplied the fisheye lens. This has nothing to do with ethnicity - distortion aside, that's the whitest facial structure I've seen in this month of Sundays - and everything to do with how someone played sculptor with her facebones.

Course, after talking to Atem last night, I think we've come to the realization that we are firmly on the opposite spectrum as you. The things you'd find attractive, we wouldn't.

Almost certainly true. For reference, I'm into the long white-blond hair, slender without being twiggy, hourglass without being fat, somewhere between 5 and 6 feet, with delicate - say, elven - features, and a skin tone somewhere between "bone" and "wood."* I hate make-up, glossy plastic-looking faces, and surgical enhancement; girls that look too shiny, too fake, just turn me off. I find nothing less attractive than the "bombshell" kind of woman like Pam Anderson. I'll take my woman simple, and natural, and real, thanks.**

And I favor peasant skirts and midriff-exposing skin-tight solid-color shirts. Not that I have very specific desires or anything. Maybe someday I'll show you a picture of the girl who set this preference in my mind.

*I like pale girls, but I don't fetishize it or obsess about getting the palest girl possible. And frankly, I find it annoying to not be able to take my girlfriend out into the sun with me.

**Which isn't to say you don't like those things: I'm simply listing off my own preferences, not contrasting with what I expect yours are.

[Serious Paul]

I've never really had a physical type-although I do desire some physical attributes over others. For me it's all sort of dynamic-a give and take. Physical beauty can be out shined by personality, emotional accessibility, etc...Conversely on some occasions a lack of intellectual or emotional compatibility can be made up for, temporarily, by physical attributes, or sexual prowess.

But realistically anyone can fuck. Not everyone can then roll over and then have a conversation. And the way I see it is that yeah you need a physical component, but there's more. There has to be.

But yeah I dig Black, Hispanic and Asian chicks before I dig on white chicks. I dig on chicks with glasses before chicks with out them. Chicks with dark hair before blonds. But that's all personal preference stuff, so as far as I'm concerned there is no "right" or "wrong." My wife and I have pretty similar tastes in women, I've never really had a physical type-although I do desire some physical attributes over others. For me it's all sort of dynamic-a give and take. Physical beauty can be out shined by personality, emotional accessibility, etc...Conversely on some occasions a lack of intellectual or emotional compatibility can be made up for, temporarily, by physical attributes, or sexual prowess.

But realistically anyone can fuck. Not everyone can then roll over and then have a conversation. And the way I see it is that yeah you need a physical component, but there's more. There has to be.

But yeah I dig Black, Hispanic and Asian chicks before I dig on white chicks. I dig on chicks with glasses before chicks with out them. Chicks with dark hair before blonds. But that's all personal preference stuff, so as far as I'm concerned there is no "right" or "wrong." My wife and I have pretty similar taste in women.

I've also noticed over the years I have some dissimilar views to a lot of people on sex, possession (As it applies to relationships), and romance. I also feel no need to force my views on others. I don't mind sharing but I don't need to recruit people, or what not.

[AtemHutlrt]

Some of this has to do with with my preferences; I like thick, curly hair, high cheekbones and full lips, so I find myself attracted to a disproportionate number of Mediterranean, African and South Asian women.

Yeah, see, what it seems like, then, is that your "type" includes characteristics which are commonly present in women of other ethnicities; it seems like it'd be easier for you to find women of these other ethnicities attractive, then.

That's probably the case, but, I think where you and I differ here is in how far I'm willing to branch-out from my ideal. It's like with food: I find it hard to relate to picky eaters because, while I may have some preferences, I appreciate an enormous variety of flavors and dishes, and tend to find value even in things I don't enjoy very much, and, though I understand the nature of preference very well, I often find myself irrationally frustrated by those with very narrow preferences.

It's also worth noting that my physical preferences may have a slight racial bias, but they're certainly found basically everywhere on the planet. You may recall a particular curly-haired, high-cheek-boned woman in my past who was about as ethnically parallel to me as is possible. Yours, on the other hand, as I recall, are rather limited to women from a very particular geographic background. And there's nothing wrong with either of us in this case, of course, though I do believe that often people who claim to only be attracted to caucasians [and East Asian women; for some reason, Japs are always an exception] actually feel that way because of a sort of latent xenophobia, or not-so-latent racism. I don't believe that's the case with you, but I know some people for whom I believe that absolutely is the case.

And I should confess another bias as well: in all areas of my life, I crave novelty above all else. So many people I know ended up with people they went to high school with, and that seems just gross and incestuous to me. I have a long-standing rule [which I would, of course, be willing to break under the right circumstances] about only dating women who were not raised in this part of the world. Whether they be from France, Sri Lanka or California, not a big concern, but, for me, a different background is almost an absolute requirement, and this likely biases me a bit toward different ethnic groups.

[3278]

That's probably the case, but, I think where you and I differ here is in how far I'm willing to branch-out from my ideal.

It could be, although considering the host of women whose only relation to my ideal is that they have legs and skin, I think it's possible that I'm willing to branch out a little further than you might expect. And if it's a question of ethnicity - and beyond anything like body type or skin tone, this seems to be about ethnicity - what about the plump Turkish girl? The long-term girlfriend with the African ancestry? The part-native girl who was my first girlfriend?

...though I do believe that often people who claim to only be attracted to caucasians [and East Asian women; for some reason, Japs are always an exception] actually feel that way because of a sort of latent xenophobia, or not-so-latent racism. I don't believe that's the case with you...

Well, call it xenophobia or call it liking birds of your feather, it's definitely likely that my preferences have been set by my experiences, which are largely [but not exclusively] with women of European descent [sometimes leavened by something else].

But it goes beyond mere preference by experience; I would go so far as I say I find persons of other cultures frequently annoying and off-putting. This is often - okay, almost always - true of persons from my own culture, mind you, but it's worse with people from other cultures, and that has to have some effect on what attracts me. I am way done dating outside my culture, although I'm sure, as when I meet a nice Turkish girl, that all my preferences will go out the window when I meet the right girl.

Anyway, I don't want to try to claim exemption from xenophobia: that may well be the case for me. I really find people troubling, and the more unlike me you make that person, the harder it's going to be for me to develop a stable, long-term relationship with them. This must surely have some kind of effect on even my short-term fantasizing.

And I should confess another bias as well: in all areas of my life, I crave novelty above all else.

Whereas I find the pursuit of novelty for the sake of novelty to be thoroughly unsatisfying, on a personal level.

So many people I know ended up with people they went to high school with, and that seems just gross and incestuous to me. I have a long-standing rule [which I would, of course, be willing to break under the right circumstances] about only dating women who were not raised in this part of the world. Whether they be from France, Sri Lanka or California, not a big concern, but, for me, a different background is almost an absolute requirement, and this likely biases me a bit toward different ethnic groups.

That seems more whacked to me than not dating some given ethnicity. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the constant flow of new experiences can be gratifying, but putting some kind of artificial condition on these things seems irrational: it would be the equivalent of me saying, "I won't date women from Africa." It's gotta put a bit of a pinch in the local dating field, too. And of course there's the question of whether two people from wildly differing cultures are likely to make things work out, too, but I think that varies strongly depending on the couple; I wouldn't be so foolish as to consider my own mixed experiences as being typical.

[AtemHutlrt]

Yeah, I don't find fat chicks as attractive as skinny chicks, but I'm still straight. Some guys like fat chicks and don't like skinny chicks: they're still straight. Some guys like small breasts, others large, some tall girls, others short. Some guys are attracted to anything with two or more X chromosomes; others are more selective. I don't think homosexuality tracks preference, unless it's preference for penis.

This is all true, of course, but I want to make a tangential point here: often when I get into conversations like this in person, someone says something to the effect of, "well, you wouldn't date a morbidly obese woman, and I don't date black girls. Different strokes." I don't believe that's a perfect argument. Serious obesity [as well as serious, uh, the opposite of obesity, now that I think about it], in my opinion, is more like a physical deformity, whereas ethnic variations are, well, simple variations. It's a fine, but I think significant, distinction. Obesity can obscure many of the traits our species is designed to find attractive, while "brown skin" says very little about viability and universal "attractiveness".

[3278]

Serious obesity [as well as serious, uh, the opposite of obesity, now that I think about it], in my opinion, is more like a physical deformity, whereas ethnic variations are, well, simple variations. It's a fine, but I think significant, distinction.

My view of its significance is likely other than yours. When it comes to whether one is a turd for being something, black or fat, then it's a significant distinction, but when you're talking about subjective valuation of aesthetics, I think it's a meaningless one: what you can I would call physical deformities would be considered quite pleasing to many persons, even persons who acknowledge those characteristics are deformities. So, yeah, they're way different to have, but when it comes to what you think is hot, I don't think it's meaningfully different at all.

Obesity can obscure many of the traits our species is designed to find attractive, while "brown skin" says very little about viability and universal "attractiveness".

Obesity can accentuate many of the traits our species is designed to find attractive, as well. And what individuals find attractive is not necessarily based on viability or anything of the sort, even indirectly: if I have a thing for amputees, you have a thing for black chicks, and Bone wants to bone fat girls, I don't see those preferences as being fundamentally different, except inasmuch as some of us are in large companies, some of us all alone with our wants.

[AtemHutlrt]

That's probably the case, but, I think where you and I differ here is in how far I'm willing to branch-out from my ideal.

It could be, although considering the host of women whose only relation to my ideal is that they have legs and skin, I think it's possible that I'm willing to branch out a little further than you might expect. And if it's a question of ethnicity - and beyond anything like body type or skin tone, this seems to be about ethnicity - what about the plump Turkish girl? The long-term girlfriend with the African ancestry? The part-native girl who was my first girlfriend?

I suppose I don't know enough about your history to speak definitively, but I was under the honest impression that you were basically only willing to fuck pale white girls. It seems I was wrong, and I apologize for labeling you that way. My intention wasn't to make this a "32 is a racist because he won't fuck a Somali" thread, though I sense it may have come off that way. I have, well, perhaps uncommon opinions on these issues, and I genuinely wanted to hear some differing thoughts. Seems I've accomplished that!

And I should confess another bias as well: in all areas of my life, I crave novelty above all else.

Whereas I find the pursuit of novelty for the sake of novelty to be thoroughly unsatisfying, on a personal level.

I was going to say that it was overstating it to say I enjoy "novelty for the sake of novelty", but, now that I've thought about it, I actually do. This is true only in the sense of very casual relationships, though. It is thoroughly unsatisfying in the long-term. It's also true, though, that novelty, for me, greatly enhances an otherwise satisfying relationship. Waking up next to someone who I know is dreaming about the same fields, cows and forests I grew up near is less satisfying than knowing my partner has an incredible wealth of experiences quite different from my own. This isn't a deal-breaker, of course, and, with the right person, really isn't an issue at all. Preference. Simple preference.

So many people I know ended up with people they went to high school with, and that seems just gross and incestuous to me. I have a long-standing rule [which I would, of course, be willing to break under the right circumstances] about only dating women who were not raised in this part of the world. Whether they be from France, Sri Lanka or California, not a big concern, but, for me, a different background is almost an absolute requirement, and this likely biases me a bit toward different ethnic groups.

That seems more whacked to me than not dating some given ethnicity. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the constant flow of new experiences can be gratifying, but putting some kind of artificial condition on these things seems irrational: it would be the equivalent of me saying, "I won't date women from Africa." It's gotta put a bit of a pinch in the local dating field, too. And of course there's the question of whether two people from wildly differing cultures are likely to make things work out, too, but I think that varies strongly depending on the couple; I wouldn't be so foolish as to consider my own mixed experiences as being typical.

Yes, it is whacked, but I really do feel a bit uneasy about women from this area, though, again, this is obviously not a deal-breaker. Part of it is also my generally anti-social disposition: I don't like running into exes. Like, even less than average, I think. But, yes, I prefer women from outside my sphere. Perhaps it's odd.

[AtemHutlrt]

Obesity can obscure many of the traits our species is designed to find attractive, while "brown skin" says very little about viability and universal "attractiveness".

Obesity can accentuate many of the traits our species is designed to find attractive, as well. And what individuals find attractive is not necessarily based on viability or anything of the sort, even indirectly: if I have a thing for amputees, you have a thing for black chicks, and Bone wants to bone fat girls, I don't see those preferences as being fundamentally different, except inasmuch as some of us are in large companies, some of us all alone with our wants.

These conversations are difficult because there are very few answers to be had, and, as much as I try to measure my words carefully, it always sounds as if I'm speaking in absolutes, despite the fact that there are no absolutes. There are, however, some interesting discussions to be had in the margins. This, for example.

Let me restate my position: There are no objective universal stands for attractiveness, though certain qualities, such as general health and viability, are as close as any you'll find. Body-type can be an indicator of those qualities, while race [or ethnicity, or whatever*] cannot be. Another issue, which didn't occur to me earlier, is that body-type can be an indicator of physical ability, which may relate to lifestyle, whereas race is a poor predictor of physical ability. For these reasons, I feel similizing race and body-type is not entirely appropriate in this context. Now, this isn't actually a very interesting point to make, and I'm not exactly married to it; this is just me trying to come to terms with the fact that it seems not-ideal, to me, to equate "being attracted to fat people" with "being attracted to Mexicans."

*terminology is another problem here. "Race" isn't particularly meaningful, scientifically, and comes well-loaded with baggage.

[3278]

I suppose I don't know enough about your history to speak definitively, but I was under the honest impression that you were basically only willing to fuck pale white girls. It seems I was wrong, and I apologize for labeling you that way.

Not at all. To be fair to you, you've only really known a handful of the tragically many girls I've gone out with, and they've all been relatively pale and at least mostly white. [Mostly; Teja is not-white, but you wouldn't call her "black."] So it's hard for you to make a meaningful assessment.

I was going to say that it was overstating it to say I enjoy "novelty for the sake of novelty", but, now that I've thought about it, I actually do. This is true only in the sense of very casual relationships, though. It is thoroughly unsatisfying in the long-term.

Which makes sense: if you're with someone for only their novelty, once they're new, they're not going to be any good. The hope is that you'll find something under the novelty that you think is worthwhile, so that as the novelty wears off, it's replaced with something else.

It's also true, though, that novelty, for me, greatly enhances an otherwise satisfying relationship. Waking up next to someone who I know is dreaming about the same fields, cows and forests I grew up near is less satisfying than knowing my partner has an incredible wealth of experiences quite different from my own.

That's very interesting. My only experiences with that - and they've not been many - haven't gone well, so I've very much started looking close to home again, to girls - people, really - with shared cultural values and life experiences. Thus far that's worked out the best for me, but preferences are based on experiences, of course.

I do value diversity, but I usually get enough of it even picking someone born and raised in the same town. But it turns out no one is dreaming of the same fields I am, so it's pretty easy for me to find the level of difference I crave.

Another issue, which didn't occur to me earlier, is that body-type can be an indicator of physical ability, which may relate to lifestyle, whereas race is a poor predictor of physical ability.

Body type can be an indicator of physical ability, but certainly isn't necessarily so. Race/ethnicity certainly can be an indicator of physical ability, but only in some ways: knowing someone is black won't tell you if they can run fast; knowing someone runs fast will tell you a lot about whether or not they're black. There's an exceptional chapter in one of these Dawkins books about it. Ancestor's Tale, I think?