Agree or Disagree: Cheating

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:44 pm

I have a friend whose stated philosophy is "If you have to ask if something is cheating or not, it is cheating." Do you agree or disagree?

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:39 am

That's ridiculous. Some people are so insecure or so paranoid that they might see infidelity in the most innocious thing.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:59 am

That doesn't seem like much of a philosophy. It seems kind of like the opening sentence to a philosophy. Without more info, I'd read that (incorrectly, very possibly) as being really immature towards personal relationships. And gaming. And new players. (I'm still unclear if this is meant towards cheating of the romantic variety, or cheating of the "I'm breaking the rules" type.) And if the same thought process is being used equally for both, then that's a whole other discussion.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:30 am

Shrugs. I disagree.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:27 am

Ha! That's good, Jeff. I hadn't even considered that AH might be talking about cheating in sports or games or such.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:19 am

Yeah, a little context would go a long way here. We were talking about what constituted cheating in relationships - it was right after watching The Hangover Part II, and there was talk about whether X or Y counted as cheating - getting a lapdance from a stripper, getting Vegas-married and anulled the next day, copping a feel from a willing coworker, frottage without ejaculation, that sort of thing. He thinks if you have to ask, you think you're being dishonest, so you are therefore cheating - if only in your head.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:08 pm

I'd assumed a sporting or gaming context, as well, and definitely condemned it as absurd, but in a romantic context it's a little more comprehensible, at least, but while I feel it works as a general rule, it's certainly not universally applicable.

For example, I had a girlfriend who used to kiss her ex-boyfriend on the lips in front of me. If she had thought to ask for clarification on this point - "Hey, now that I think of it, does this bother you?" - I don't think that would have immediately made it cheating if it wasn't before.

Tiny Deev · Post by **Tiny Deev** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:47 pm

So, if you have to go "is having a lapdance cheating", you're infact cheating? I think thats bullshit. Its just that the bounderies are unclear. If its been said that getting a lapdance is a no-no, you go get one anyway, then thats being dishonest. Thats bad.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:53 pm

Even after context, that seems really simplistic. More importantly, these are the kinds of things that should be talked about in a relationship long before an issue comes up. Or, if lap dances are your thing....why aren't you getting one from your partner?

SumDumQuim · Post by **SumDumQuim** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:51 pm

Because you look better in a G string and have no inhibitions?

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:59 pm

heheheheHEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

AtemHutlrt · Post by **AtemHutlrt** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:42 pm

Different couples have different boundaries, and sometimes the boundaries are unclear. No, it's not always cheating if you have to ask, but, if you have to ask, it might be cheating, so you probably should ask.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:48 pm

That's not a conversation I would relish. I agree honesty is the best policy, but (and this might just be me) I can't see many of my relationships where I would ask the gel "Honey, I'm going to a bachelor's party and we might be doing shoots out a strippe's...belly button. Is that cool with you?"

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:12 pm

Ancient History wrote:That's not a conversation I would relish. I agree honesty is the best policy, but (and this might just be me) I can't see many of my relationships where I would ask the gel "Honey, I'm going to a bachelor's party and we might be doing shoots out a strippe's...belly button. Is that cool with you?"

Still seems like something that should have been covered in the "getting to know you" phase of the relationship. I don't really understand how you expect the relationship to work, if you haven't figured out by then what their personal boundaries and expectations are.

AtemHutlrt · Post by **AtemHutlrt** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:19 pm

Ancient History wrote:That's not a conversation I would relish. I agree honesty is the best policy, but (and this might just be me) I can't see many of my relationships where I would ask the gel "Honey, I'm going to a bachelor's party and we might be doing shoots out a strippe's...belly button. Is that cool with you?"

In a healthy, adult relationship, that's a perfectly reasonable conversation to have. What's the alternative? Just doing it anyway, and being an asshole, or never asking, and resenting your partner because you may have missed a fun opportunity?

AtemHutlrt · Post by **AtemHutlrt** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:22 pm

Jeff Hauze wrote:
Ancient History wrote:That's not a conversation I would relish. I agree honesty is the best policy, but (and this might just be me) I can't see many of my relationships where I would ask the gel "Honey, I'm going to a bachelor's party and we might be doing shoots out a strippe's...belly button. Is that cool with you?"
Still seems like something that should have been covered in the "getting to know you" phase of the relationship. I don't really understand how you expect the relationship to work, if you haven't figured out by then what their personal boundaries and expectations are.

I pretty much agree with this, but, from my experience, the "getting to know you" phase actually never ends. Or at least it shouldn't. I really don't want to date someone I can completely figure out in a short period of time. I feel that a relationship should involve a lot of, "hey, is it cool if I do this?" conversations, even after many years.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:27 pm

AtemHutlrt wrote:I pretty much agree with this, but, from my experience, the "getting to know you" phase actually never ends. Or at least it shouldn't. I really don't want to date someone I can completely figure out in a short period of time. I feel that a relationship should involve a lot of, "hey, is it cool if I do this?" conversations, even after many years.

Word. Can't believe I forgot to say that myself. You'll pay, smarty-pants. Oh, you'll pay big time.

AtemHutlrt · Post by **AtemHutlrt** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:33 pm

Jeff Hauze wrote:
AtemHutlrt wrote:I pretty much agree with this, but, from my experience, the "getting to know you" phase actually never ends. Or at least it shouldn't. I really don't want to date someone I can completely figure out in a short period of time. I feel that a relationship should involve a lot of, "hey, is it cool if I do this?" conversations, even after many years.
Word. Can't believe I forgot to say that myself. You'll pay, smarty-pants. Oh, you'll pay big time.

It's ok; we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:37 pm

AtemHutlrt wrote:It's ok; we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.

I think I just got served.

AtemHutlrt · Post by **AtemHutlrt** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:51 pm

Jeff Hauze wrote:
AtemHutlrt wrote:It's ok; we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.
I think I just got served.

If you have to ask, it means you're getting served.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:37 pm

In my opinion, honesty is rarely the best policy. Honesty is important, but too much honesty can be a bad thing. This could vary depending on the context of the relationship: I tend to get stuck with insecure, paranoid women who are extremely suspicious of everything.

I mean, I don't consider dancing with someone to be cheating, even if the dancing gets pretty "heated" and erotic. I'd never consider cheating on someone I'm in a relationship with... well, I'd never act on that consideration. However, I will continue to flirt(in my fashion, which is typically saying rather vulgar and suggestive things) and enjoy myself, but I always return to the one who I'm with, rather than cheating.

But at the same time, some girls consider going to a strip club or something to be cheating, which boggles my fucking mind. I mean, is looking at porn cheating? If so, I think you have an unhealthily narrow definition, because it's fucking porn.

I've generally managed to be quite accommodating myself when it comes to flirtatious behavior. My personal philosophy on this is: "pussy is going to go where pussy wants to go", meaning that if your girl doesn't want to be with you, then she doesn't want to be with you, and no amount of watchfulness, suspicion of the like will change that. On the other hand, if your girl wants to be with you, then she wants to be with you, and no amount of flirtation and provocative behavior is going to change that. Unlike some guys, I actually get a thrill out of watching guys hit on my girl: it lets me know I have something that other people want, rather than a piece of trash.

Of course, I've also been cheated on pretty flagrantly, so what the fuck do I know?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:21 pm

In my view, "cheating" is one of those things like breaking up that only has to be true for one party in order for it to be true for both parties. Like, you don't negotiate being broken up: if one of you says you are, you both are. If she thinks it's cheating for somebody to chat online with their ex, then it's cheating for either of you to do it; if you think it's cheating for to hold hands with somebody else, then it's cheating whether you do it or she does it. But that's really a question of respect more than anything else: in a relationship, why would you be doing something the other person felt so strongly you shouldn't? Isn't that dickish, to go do something for your own pleasure at her expense? If you cared about her, why would you do that, just to make yourself happy? Shouldn't you care about her happiness more than yours? Of course, you can't know what makes her happy without communicating with her, so that's always the place to start.

And with that, let me get on my high horse and dispense some unsolicited and condescending long-form advice:

Ancient History wrote:I agree honesty is the best policy, but (and this might just be me) I can't see many of my relationships where I would ask the gel "Honey, I'm going to a bachelor's party and we might be doing shoots out a strippe's...belly button. Is that cool with you?"

It would be profoundly unhealthy to have an exclusive relationship of any seriousness in which both parties wouldn't feel completely comfortable with this level of communication.

Bonefish wrote:In my opinion, honesty is rarely the best policy.

The only situation in which honesty wouldn't be the best policy is one in which one party wanted to do something that the other party wouldn't want them to. So why would you be doing something your girlfriend wouldn't want you to? That'd be really selfish. If you're doing something and it's only okay because she doesn't know, you're being a giant dick to her, and it shows that you think your pleasure is more important than hers. You're trying to create a situation in which you can have your cake and eat it, too, and that's profoundly disrespectful to her. Love is placing someone else above you in importance; what you're describing, then, is the antithesis of love.

In a practical sense, would you want her behaving this way toward you? Do you want to feel like you always have to wonder if she's wet from making out with you or if she just got done fucking eight of your friends, but isn't telling you about it? Fuck that. The best relationships are built on mutual trust, communication, and respect.

Bonefish wrote:Honesty is important, but too much honesty can be a bad thing.

Like most things in a relationship, the level of honesty is one of those things you just have to agree on in the relationship. I tend toward very literal policies of truth, but there's a level of dishonesty that some women expect, and if I'm with a woman like that, I might have to change my behavior to suit her, just as she might have to change her behavior to suit my expected level of dishonesty.*

This could vary depending on the context of the relationship: I tend to get stuck with insecure, paranoid women who are extremely suspicious of everything.

Bonefish wrote:But at the same time, some girls consider going to a strip club or something to be cheating, which boggles my fucking mind.

Well, okay, but who gives a fuck about your mind? Why is it your standard of acceptable behavior that matters, and not hers, or a mutually negotiated compromise?**

Bonefish wrote:My personal philosophy on this is: "pussy is going to go where pussy wants to go", meaning that if your girl doesn't want to be with you, then she doesn't want to be with you... Unlike some guys, I actually get a thrill out of watching guys hit on my girl: it lets me know I have something that other people want, rather than a piece of trash.

A healthy place to start having more fulfilling, more respectful, healthier relationships with women would probably be not thinking of them as "pussy," or "something."

The right woman should be someone you think of as being exactly as good as you, as important as you. She should be your equal, as a person, your peer. Your relationship should be a partnership, an equal partnership in which both voices have equal weight. Neither party should be trying to get away with the most, make themselves the happiest, they should both be trying to make the other person as happy as possible.

It should be "like wrestling an angel," where the object isn't to win, but to lose to the other, because their victory matters more to you than your own: this way, both parties are lifting the other up, not throwing the other down; both ascend to the sky, rather than push each other down into the dirt.

This is what it is to love: to love your wife, to love your children, to love your fellow man. This is what it is to be a good husband, a good parent, a good person: to be selfless rather than selfish, to place someone else above you in importance. This is what love is, this is what good is.

*Personally, I like my girlfriends to maintain a complete policy of truth and full disclosure with me, but moderated with tact. If a pair of pants is going to make my ass look fat, I need my girlfriend to tell me that, but I expect her to say, "No, those pants aren't for you," and make a meaningful glance at my ass, not say, "Those pants make your ass look fat." If this level of nuance seems complex, it is, but that's why "learning about each other" can't ever end: anyone interesting enough to be worth going out with is going to be too complicated to figure out right away.

**She doesn't want you to go at all, you want to get a lapdance, you settle on you getting to go, but no lapdances, for example. I don't know, not a situation I've been in: I've always been the guy who stays in and gets a lapdance from my girlfriend, who's always hotter than any stripper anyway, and has the added bonus of being the woman I love.

Iantha · Post by **Iantha** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:20 am

Well, I had a big long post typed up and then I just deleted it all because I didn't feel like responding to every point.

In short, I love my marriage BECAUSE of the constant questions, the grey areas and blurry lines, because we are equals and because we are constantly changing and finding out new bits about each other.

Bonefish, your view on women is really sad to me. Good luck finding a decent woman with that viewpoint.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:56 am

No one stops to think that it might be a viewpoint reinforced by the women I have met in my life? I mean, I guess I come off as fairly bitter and hateful when I discuss these things, but that's probably because I've had some pretty retarded relationships with women, and I do carry that bitterness forward, because it seems like I keep running into the same types of women: manipulative and emotionally abusive. And I've seen some pretty fucked up relationships with various friends of mine.

I mean, I get the idea that in a mature, adult relationship, honesty should be the best policy. If I go over to a friends house after work, play some video games and have a beer or two, then come home, I shouldn't have to lie about it. Likewise, we should be able to calmly and rationally discuss how we feel and all that shit. This would be an ideal state of affairs. But in practice, I've found that very few people, male or female, are capable of having adult relationships.

I mean, shit, what do I have to do to be a decent man and have a decent opinion of women? I mean, I've been a very respectful person in my relationships with women, in general. I've respected boundaries, I've been trusting, I've been willing to do that "losing" thing, to help out a woman, and I've constantly been burned by it. And then I'm told that my opinion of women sucks. Well, yeah, my opinion of every woman I've been romantically involved with is negative: all my experiences have been negative. I've found that I'm much more emotionally stable and happy when I don't have romantic interests, because I keep getting burned.

I mean, what do you do? Your girlfriend starts a fight because you went and hung out with some friends, doing nothing other than playing board games and video games and bullshitting. But at the same time: I never prevented her from going out partying with her friends, who are almost universally male. I have a dance with another woman, a friend of mine, and I'm the bad guy? I go to work all damn day, come home, and she wants me to walk to the store to buy some beer, and I tell her I'm tired and that I'd like to rest, and she blows up on me?

Oooh, or how about the one where I moved the girl and her kid into my house, supported them for months, only for her to cheat on me, in my own bed? I mean, this is why I'm the bad guy? And then to forgive her, go on vacation to visit her, and she fucks some body right in front of me? These are the things that make me a bad person?

I mean, how much do I have to fucking give before I can start having a "decent" viewpoint of women? What do I have to do? I've tried being a nice guy, doing the right thing, being honest, being supportive, and I've just gotten fucked over. It's gotten to the point, I don't even entertain the thought of a romantic relationship with a woman, because every single time I've tried it, it just blows up in my face. It gets very hard to be an optimistic person when your optimism is constantly crushed by infidelity, paranoia and selfishness. Which are traits I find abhorrent, and I press myself to not exhibit them.

And then I'm told I have a negative view of women*. So I can't win for losing.

*I generally have a negative view of people in general: because they're always proving that they are fucking assholes.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:21 am

I feel for ya, Bone. You'll never understand "women", and there is no one way to be in love. Try to hang out with decent people and it'll at least improve your chances at finding a less crazy woman, then just try to understand her (you'll never get there, either, but it's at least a little easier).

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:53 am

I strongly recommend becoming Amish. It's much easier then, because you're immediately informed of the fact that the Amish are superior to everyone else, and it is now an official requirement of your culture to hate the rest of the world entire.

Iantha · Post by **Iantha** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:36 am

The "I'm a douche bag to women because women have been douche bags to me" argument doesn't hold water with me. Lots of people have been raised in abusive homes and have decided that they did not like how they were treated, so they decided to be different. Lots of people were in previous bad relationships, with no positive role models in sight, and decided that they were not going to go down the same road again. If your argument were a valid one, then I'd be an alcoholic, abusive, pot-growing bigot who would beat her children with a leather flail every time they got the slightest speck of dirt on them.

Just sayin'.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:49 pm

Bonefish wrote:No one stops to think that it might be a viewpoint reinforced by the women I have met in my life? I mean, I guess I come off as fairly bitter and hateful when I discuss these things, but that's probably because I've had some pretty retarded relationships with women, and I do carry that bitterness forward, because it seems like I keep running into the same types of women: manipulative and emotionally abusive. And I've seen some pretty fucked up relationships with various friends of mine.

In that case, perhaps a good place to start would be avoiding women who are manipulative and emotionally abusive. As in, don't start relationships with women who are like that. Get to know the women very well before you enter a relationship with them, and then if she becomes manipulative and emotionally abusive after the relationship begins, get away from her as soon as possible. Don't waste time on relationships with bitches: there are plenty of not-bitches in the world.

Of course, you need a place to meet these not-bitches. Culture is a funny thing: while it never tells you anything specific about all people, it often includes general trends. You'll meet fiercely proud Amish women and meek and mild Amish women, but you'll never meet an Amish woman who doesn't know how to bake a pie. The culture you're a part of can often strongly influence the types of women you meet: I can really only usefully meet women in the woods, or at college, because those are the only places I have a reasonable chance of meeting a woman who shares some of the same interests I do.

You should look at your life, and the people in it, and the things they're doing, and the fresh bruises, and wonder if maybe there isn't someplace else - some other culture, some other location - that might not produce a greater wealth of intelligent, calm, rational women who share your intellectual and emotional passions. Not poor bitches who were slapped around as kids and who have three kids from three days and work as little as they can to keep food in the kids and booze in themselves.

It sucks! I live in the poor white version of what you live in the mixed-race urban version of, and I know that the odds of me running into Mrs Right at the grocery store are slim to none. You can't assume they're zero - that's discriminatory and irrational - but they're not great. Is it possible that the girl in the next aisle with the tramp stamp and the leather skin and the three kids with three different hair colors is really an intellectual figure, steeped in the classics and passionate about ecology? Yeah, but...probably not. So go to the places where the kind of woman you want are.

Bonefish wrote:I mean, what do you do? Your girlfriend starts a fight because you went and hung out with some friends, doing nothing other than playing board games and video games and bullshitting.

If it's an isolated incident, you find out what upset her and find a compromise. If it's part of a pattern of behavior, without reasonable cause, you dump her and find a woman who won't freak out for no reason. But that's assuming she doesn't have reasonable cause, of course.

Bonefish wrote:But at the same time: I never prevented her from going out partying with her friends, who are almost universally male.

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. You don't get to give her permission to do things, and then buy permission for you to do things with that. One doesn't effect the other. And permission for her to do something isn't permission for you to do that: you can't say, "Well, I fuck dudes, yeah, but I also let her fuck dudes." She has to decide what she tolerates, you have to decide what you tolerate, and you negotiate from there.

Bonefish wrote:I have a dance with another woman, a friend of mine, and I'm the bad guy?

Uh...yeah, I would say. Depends on the dance, depends on the friend, depends on the girlfriend, but if it were me, yeah, I wouldn't be particularly pleased about it. Some people wouldn't care, though: it's the sort of thing you want to get to know about someone before you're in a relationship with them.

Bonefish wrote:Oooh, or how about the one where I moved the girl and her kid into my house, supported them for months, only for her to cheat on me, in my own bed? I mean, this is why I'm the bad guy? And then to forgive her, go on vacation to visit her, and she fucks some body right in front of me? These are the things that make me a bad person?

You don't want to blame the victim - it's not your fault these people are broken - but what you can do is enable the victim to make choices that will help them not be victimized in the future. One suggestion I would have would be avoiding women who can't support themselves and their children without your help. And that's not to say that a successful woman is never going to be unfaithful, but if you spend time with responsible people, there's less chance they're going to be irresponsible people, you know?

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:42 pm

3278 wrote:
Bonefish wrote:But at the same time: I never prevented her from going out partying with her friends, who are almost universally male.
It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. You don't get to give her permission to do things, and then buy permission for you to do things with that. One doesn't effect the other. And permission for her to do something isn't permission for you to do that: you can't say, "Well, I fuck dudes, yeah, but I also let her fuck dudes." She has to decide what she tolerates, you have to decide what you tolerate, and you negotiate from there.

I think I see where you're coming from, but I don't think toleration of hypocrisy should be part of a healthy relationship. Someone who takes you to task for doing something they themselves are doing isn't right. It's like a parent screaming at their kid "I will not tolerate your fucking swearing in this house!"

Nicephorus · Post by **Nicephorus** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:09 pm

WillyGilligan wrote: It's like a parent screaming at their kid "I will not tolerate your fucking swearing in this house!"

So, the webcam does work.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:29 pm

3278 wrote: In that case, perhaps a good place to start would be avoiding women who are manipulative and emotionally abusive. As in, don't start relationships with women who are like that. Get to know the women very well before you enter a relationship with them, and then if she becomes manipulative and emotionally abusive after the relationship begins, get away from her as soon as possible. Don't waste time on relationships with bitches: there are plenty of not-bitches in the world.

Well sure, that's ideal. But you know, funny thing about the romantic feeling is it isn't always rational.

Of course, you need a place to meet these not-bitches. Culture is a funny thing: while it never tells you anything specific about all people, it often includes general trends. You'll meet fiercely proud Amish women and meek and mild Amish women, but you'll never meet an Amish woman who doesn't know how to bake a pie. The culture you're a part of can often strongly influence the types of women you meet: I can really only usefully meet women in the woods, or at college, because those are the only places I have a reasonable chance of meeting a woman who shares some of the same interests I do.

But what I don't understand is that some of my closest female friends have been met in the same culture as the girls I find loony. Some of them have similar personality traits, but they are generally a bit more controlled.

It sucks! I live in the poor white version of what you live in the mixed-race urban version of, and I know that the odds of me running into Mrs Right at the grocery store are slim to none. You can't assume they're zero - that's discriminatory and irrational - but they're not great. Is it possible that the girl in the next aisle with the tramp stamp and the leather skin and the three kids with three different hair colors is really an intellectual figure, steeped in the classics and passionate about ecology? Yeah, but...probably not. So go to the places where the kind of woman you want are.

Right, but what I'm sayin is: they're good at camoflage. I mean, ok, tramp stamp, three kids, etc, that's a caution flag. On the other hand, I've met some girls who are intellectual, funny, into the same things I want, but they're still selfish and emotionally abusive. And it can be real hard to see that when you're in the forest.

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. You don't get to give her permission to do things, and then buy permission for you to do things with that. One doesn't effect the other. And permission for her to do something isn't permission for you to do that: you can't say, "Well, I fuck dudes, yeah, but I also let her fuck dudes." She has to decide what she tolerates, you have to decide what you tolerate, and you negotiate from there.

My point is when the toleration isn't reciprocated. I mean, I don't have a problem with having a few drinks: I enjoy to get loaded too. I DO have a problem with drinking everyday, and getting so hammered you don't remember that ash tray you threw at me the night before. And then the arguments start: "well, you drink TOO!". Sure, I do. On occasion, and in measured amounts. I might get two forty ounces friday night and get loaded, sit at home and play video games. I don't get loaded every day, go out and party to five in the morning and then act like I'm innocent of wrong doing.

Uh...yeah, I would say. Depends on the dance, depends on the friend, depends on the girlfriend, but if it were me, yeah, I wouldn't be particularly pleased about it. Some people wouldn't care, though: it's the sort of thing you want to get to know about someone before you're in a relationship with them.

See, I guess that's just where we differ. I don't have a problem with dancing or general flirtatious behavior, so long as it's within bounds: ie, no kissing, not acting on the flirtation, etc. But if a guy asks my girl for a dance, in a generally respectful fashion and acts respectable, I'm cool with it.

You don't want to blame the victim - it's not your fault these people are broken - but what you can do is enable the victim to make choices that will help them not be victimized in the future. One suggestion I would have would be avoiding women who can't support themselves and their children without your help. And that's not to say that a successful woman is never going to be unfaithful, but if you spend time with responsible people, there's less chance they're going to be irresponsible people, you know?

Well, I'm working on it, but like I said: they can be some damn deceptive creatures.

All this said, I don't think that women, in general, are bad people. I think they're just people, and that just as many men are mentally fucked. For example, the guys who think nothing of cheating on their girlfriend, but if she ever cheats on them, flies into a rage: that's stupid.

I mean, you should have the same standards of conduct for yourself as for your partner, I think. But my general contention is that very few people are capable of approaching relationships in a responsible, rational and adult fashion. Hence my: "honesty is not always the best policy" line of thinking. Sometimes, it's just not worth the fucking hassle to be honest about things that she or he shouldn't have a problem with.

And sometimes, despite some slight flaws, the rest of the person is someone you like and want to spend time with. So you compromise. And if one of those flaws is an unreasonable reaction to a "boys" night, then you just have to deal with that, if the rest of the relationship is something you'd like. People are inherently fucked up little bundles of emotion.

IT's just a confusing and dangerous place, and sometimes, being honest with someone doesn't work out for you. I'm not talking about lying to your wife of 10 or 20 years, I'm talking about a girl you've been dating for a few months or so. Initially, everyone lies about themselves, they hide inconvient facts, they exaggerate other things, etc. Those who don't, those who follow the police of full disclosure and transparency, in my experience, rarely get through that initial phase into the part of a relationship where honesty and loyalty are more important than say, sexual attraction.

In my experience at the least, most folks don't want to be told the truth.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:14 pm

Bonefish wrote:
3278 wrote:Don't waste time on relationships with bitches: there are plenty of not-bitches in the world.
Well sure, that's ideal. But you know, funny thing about the romantic feeling is it isn't always rational.

That is absolutely true. But I'll tell you, I have feelings all the time that aren't always rational, and I still have to control them, to temper those feelings with that part of me that is rational. They still drive me - I want to fuck and kill and avoid my own death as much as the next organism - but I use reason to control my actions from moment to moment, so as to get the maximum amount of pleasure overall. You keep from killing every person who annoys you, so why not keep from staying in relationships with bitches just because you love them?

Bonefish wrote:Right, but what I'm sayin is: they're good at camoflage. I mean, ok, tramp stamp, three kids, etc, that's a caution flag. On the other hand, I've met some girls who are intellectual, funny, into the same things I want, but they're still selfish and emotionally abusive. And it can be real hard to see that when you're in the forest.

Most people are good at this. Very few people are impressive enough to get away with just being who they are and letting people judge them on that basis. It takes time - real time, months or years - to see beyond that sort of presentation, although I think there are often indicators long before that, if you know what to look for, and can be objective about judging her when she's hot and gives you lots of attention. Which I'm not always very good at.

Bonefish wrote:My point is when the toleration isn't reciprocated.

Yeah, dump that girl. If you can't accept the level of toleration she's willing to give, then it's not going to work out. You can keep trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, but in my experience, you're better off being single than being in a relationship in which you can't successfully negotiate these kinds of issues. You may as well get around to meeting the girl that you're willing to put up with while you get these issues negotiated, even if it takes a lifetime, than wasting your time with someone you can't even compromise with.

Bonefish wrote:
3278 wrote:Uh...yeah, I would say. Depends on the dance, depends on the friend, depends on the girlfriend, but if it were me, yeah, I wouldn't be particularly pleased about it. Some people wouldn't care, though: it's the sort of thing you want to get to know about someone before you're in a relationship with them.
See, I guess that's just where we differ. I don't have a problem with dancing or general flirtatious behavior, so long as it's within bounds: ie, no kissing, not acting on the flirtation, etc. But if a guy asks my girl for a dance, in a generally respectful fashion and acts respectable, I'm cool with it.

Well, then, you and I probably shouldn't date. Or if we do, we'll have to like each other so much that we're each willing to bend some to make the other person happy. Neither of us will have to just give in - that'd be unfair, and we want to be partners, not top and bottom. Instead, we'd each give a little. If we couldn't do that, if we didn't like enough about each other to make that mutual sacrifice, then I don't think it's going to work out between us. I really like you, and I really enjoyed the sex, and if you want to hook up sometime I'm down with that, 'cause I'm desperate and ugly and I don't get that much play from someone who looks like you, but in terms of the romance, I just can't get past these kinds of issues. I'm not saying, oh, please give in or I'm going to break up with you, I'm saying...it's over. We had a great time, but I think we both know this just isn't going to work out.

Bonefish wrote:I mean, you should have the same standards of conduct for yourself as for your partner, I think.

This is a popular view, but I'd point out that this falls prey to the same error as the Golden Rule: doing unto others as you would have done unto you removes their choice from the equation, and substitutes your judgment for theirs. A better rule would be to simply do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

Bonefish wrote:And sometimes, despite some slight flaws, the rest of the person is someone you like and want to spend time with. So you compromise. And if one of those flaws is an unreasonable reaction to a "boys" night, then you just have to deal with that, if the rest of the relationship is something you'd like.

I definitely agree with that, but these things you've mentioned don't seem trifling to me, don't seem like things small enough to be overlooked for some other benefit. If I have to lie to my girlfriend about where I've been, I don't think my relationship with her is healthy enough for the rest of it to be as good as it could be. Rather than stay in a relationship with someone I have to put up with, I'd rather be in one with someone I fit with. Why settle for "sucks but makes up for it," when "is awesome" is out there?

Or fix the relationship you have. Instead of lying, tell the truth. Give up boy's night out for her, if she's so great. Give up watching strippers, if that's what she wants. It doesn't seem that onerous a sacrifice.

Bonefish wrote:IT's just a confusing and dangerous place, and sometimes, being honest with someone doesn't work out for you. I'm not talking about lying to your wife of 10 or 20 years, I'm talking about a girl you've been dating for a few months or so. Initially, everyone lies about themselves, they hide inconvient facts, they exaggerate other things, etc.

Yeah, don't do that. Don't found a relationship on lies. I'm not saying don't make yourself look good; always put your best foot forward. It's not lying in any important way to take a shower if you otherwise wouldn't have taken a shower: she expects that. She doesn't expect, shouldn't expect, for you to deceive her directly and shamelessly. Open and honest communication doesn't have to mean being the same slob you are when you're alone, but yeah, it should extend to factual information.

Bonefish wrote:In my experience at the least, most folks don't want to be told the truth.

If words of truth don't reflect a satisfactory reality, change reality, not your words.