Game of Thrones

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat May 19, 2012 7:50 am

WillyGilligan wrote:
Raygun wrote:Yeah. I just read an interview with the actor that's playing him in the upcoming season. He's one of the characters I'm really interested in seeing how they pull off.
So how are you feeling about him so far?

I think he's one of the most perfectly cast characters in the show so far and that's saying a lot! They hit the nail on the head with him. And the bit of screenwriting with him killing Lorch was great.

The only bit of casting I'm on the fence about is Asha/Yara (and I still think changing her name was dumb). The girl is a fine actress, but I imagined Asha as much sexier, you know? Raven-haired hot pirate chick. But that's a pretty minor gripe.

I'm really loving the back and forth with Arya and Tywin,

Yeah, everyone seems to. I really like it too. Though it does make you wonder how they're going to handle her and Bolton.

Serious Paul wrote:Am I the only one who feels like they've gone off script in a few spots? I'm not saying its a bad thing, yet, just different.

Yeah, they've gone off, left out, hopefully pushed back... None of the changes are too bad, though there are things missing that I wish weren't, like the Reeds. I hope they show up at some point.

Tiny Deev wrote:Tywin is not a bad person. Stern, but not without love. He loved his wife, loves his children and loves his House.

Really? The way I see it, Tywin is one step away from the closest personification of evil in the whole story so far (with Ramsay Bolton being numero uno; though I suppose one could argue that Tywin is no worse than Roose and the Mountain is just as bad as Ramsay). True, he loves his family (except Tyrion) and he will do anything - including ordering the random killing and torturing of innocent people - to secure his family's power and fortune. I think 'ruthless' sums him up in a word. He may never directly get his hands dirty (well, except for that deer!), but he is most definitely a bad person.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Sat May 19, 2012 10:51 am

To me he's kind of Lawful Evil.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat May 19, 2012 5:59 pm

Yeah, that's a good way to put it, I think. Reminds me, I saw this a while back.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Sun May 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Raygun wrote:I think he's one of the most perfectly cast characters in the show so far and that's saying a lot! They hit the nail on the head with him. And the bit of screenwriting with him killing Lorch was great.

Arya: It has to be done now!
Ha'Qar: *sigh*

Tiny Deev · Post by **Tiny Deev** » Mon May 21, 2012 10:13 am

Salvation122 wrote:
And has no problem employing Clegane, Lorch, and Hoat. Sooooooooo.

Clegane is muscle, but reasonably under control. Lorch is a bit retarded, and Hoat is just a sellsword.

To be honest, Clegane and Hoat are just Tywin's equivelant of Bron.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Mon May 21, 2012 7:34 pm

The difference being the methods in which they are employed.

WillyGilligan wrote:Arya: It has to be done now!
Ha'Qar: *sigh*

Jaqen: Unname me.
Arya: No.
Jaqen: Please?
Arya: Alright. I'll unname you. IF you help me and my friends escape.
Jaqen: This would require more than one death.
Arya: Fine. Jaqen H'ghar.
Jaqen: A girl lacks honor.
Arya: *shrug*

No Bloody Mummers, no releasing Glover, no Arya and Bolton. Hmm. They're going to have to meet up with Jaqen again to tie that one up.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Tue May 22, 2012 7:14 am

Yeah, this season they're really having to deal with just how dense the plot from the books is.

Next week - Ships. At. War.

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:32 pm

This season would have really benefitted from an additional two episodes. Given that it's the highest-rated show on HBO, I find it kind of amazing that they didn't expand it a little and give it more room to breathe.

Luckily, they're splitting Storm of Swords into two seasons.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Thu May 24, 2012 11:25 pm

Salvation122 wrote:This season would have really benefitted from an additional two episodes.

Yeah, it really would have. They really should give it more episodes per season, but they seem to be sticking with 10.

Given that it's the highest-rated show on HBO,

It isn't. True Blood has higher average ratings. (And what a piece of shit that's turned into. I mean it's always been kitchy vampire bullshit, but now it's just fucking retarded. I wish they'd just put the red-headed chick in some vampire porn so I can wank myself to sleep and call it a day.)

I find it kind of amazing that they didn't expand it a little and give it more room to breathe.

It's an expensive show. About $60M for the first season and $70M for the second.

Luckily, they're splitting Storm of Swords into two seasons.

Yeah. Makes sense to do it that way, given how huge the book is. Which will mean the fourth season (if they get it) should be fucking awesome.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Thu May 24, 2012 11:50 pm

Raygun wrote:
Salvation122 wrote:This season would have really benefitted from an additional two episodes.
Yeah, it really would have. They really should give it more episodes per season, but they seem to be sticking with 10.

Probably has to do with back-end DVD sales. 3 shows/disk and bonus features on disk 4 or something.

Raygun wrote:It isn't. True Blood has higher average ratings. (And what a piece of shit that's turned into. I mean it's always been kitchy vampire bullshit, but now it's just fucking retarded. I wish they'd just put the red-headed chick in some vampire porn so I can wank myself to sleep and call it a day.)

True Blood has never been anything but a spoof of a Vampire/World of Darkness game.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri May 25, 2012 7:07 pm

paladin2019 wrote:True Blood has never been anything but a spoof of a Vampire/World of Darkness game.

True, but at least the first couple seasons were a mildly amusing spoof of a Vampire/World of Darkness game! Now it's just plain stupid and I have to go find something else to do when it comes on because SDQ loves it. BAH.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Tue May 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Blackwater. What did you think?

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Wed May 30, 2012 12:33 am

Not bad. I definitely pictured the battle taking place on a much more narrow channel for some reason. It seemed much more like a wide open area to me on the TV show, but perhaps that's a mis-perception on my part.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Wed May 30, 2012 2:27 am

I think the book version was more narrow, because that's what made the chain possible. I kind of understand the removal of the chain, though. Even if the chain made the situation more horrifying for the dying as well as Tyrion.

They did do one kind of puzzling thing, though. In the previous episodes you could tell where scenes were going to take place by watching the review scenes they used mixed with which spots on the map were shown in the opening sequence. I was expecting at least a bit of Dany, Theon and Bran but all we got was King's Landing. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they didn't break up the battle we saw, that was a good choice. I just got used to having a heads up and I didn't get it this time.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:12 am

I hadn't even thought of that. I wonder if that means the next episode will be nearly devoid of Kings Landing? Hmm. Next episode of the season finale right? Anyone else notice first season covered the first book, but the second season seems like it might fall a little short?

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Wed May 30, 2012 6:42 pm

Well, it's gone ahead quite a bit with the Jaime/Brienne storyline. The rest seems pretty close to the end of the book to me, except for Daenerys. I imagine they will leave King's Landing out to keep viewers wondering if Tyrion and Davos are alive or not.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:14 pm

Davos is Tyrion's squire, correct? I didn't quite catch his name in the dialogue.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:00 pm

No, Davos is Stannis' Hand. The bearded guy that got blown up leading the naval attack on King's Landing.

Podrick is Tyrion's squire. (Great dialogue between Tyrion and Verys concerning that.

)

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed May 30, 2012 11:31 pm

Raygun wrote:No, Davos is Stannis' Hand. The bearded guy that got blown up leading the naval attack on King's Landing.

Blown off his ship. Big difference. He was airborne at the time the explosion hit him, so he's safe. And he fell into water. Doubly safe. That's what all the action movie physics I studied when I was younger tells me.

It's like Syrio. He didn't die on screen, he just mopped the floor with four henchmen, he made a cool one-liner...not dead.

Raygun wrote:Podrick is Tyrion's squire. (Great dialogue between Tyrion and Verys concerning that. )

Thanks.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:35 pm

Random thought: Jaqen H'ghar and Syrio Forel are simply two masks the nameless Braavosi assassin has discarded.

This begs the question, did Eddard Stark summon him as he instructed Arya?

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:17 am

Syrio as Jaqen is a popular theory, but I don't think Ned would knowingly hire a faceless man to protect Arya even if he knew about them beforehand. There's a slight possibility that IF Syrio was a faceless man, he might have become Syrio to fill the Starks' need for a swordmaster to teach a girl for some purpose only they know. This is not really in the books so far as I know, but that's my thought.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:19 am

WillyGilligan wrote:some purpose only they know.

'cause she's gonna be kewlest, moar powa!1!1!1, l33t'est faceless chick of the all!

But what I really meant is, had Eddard Stark, at some point, earne/been given one of those iron coins and the secret words to summon the assassin, and if so, wow

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:58 pm

To be honest the books and the series are at a point where they're starting to lose me. I feel like there's no end in sight. And I get in the real world history never ends, but seriously.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:16 pm

Yeah, I kind of feel that way too.

Spoiler:

Particularly the Dorne and Aegon story lines kind of bug me. Dorne is just trudging and Aegon is a late addition of a seemingly pivotal character arch that just seems like it's going to drag things out. I imagine those archs are going to merge somehow. It also makes it seem like Mopatis and Varys are running the whole game for their own amusement.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:16 am

Just finished the last book, and it just makes me want to watch the rest of the show more. And yeah, Ray, throughout several points in the book, especially all throughout book 4 and parts of book 5, I seriously doubted whether Martin had an end-game in mind. But I did think it got better.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:37 am

I don't follow his blog or anything, but I've got the impression that Martin knows mostly where it's going, he just has a hard time fitting the pieces in place. Like he has an endpoint for, say, Arya, and one for Jaime, etc. But then those arcs impact the main arc and may need to intersect with each other while progressing on their own.

For example, there's got to be a point to what's going on with Rickon, but he's so young (I think 5-7, but I'd have to look at it again) that it's going to take time before he'll be in a position to do anything other than get dragged around in other plots. So he's on the backburner and needs to be stirred occasionally, but kept moving to the place he needs to be.

Basically, it's a lot of juggling.

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:21 pm

Martin's been pretty open with his difficulties writing Dance with Dragons: He needed to get a number of characters shuffled around so that they were in the vicinity of Mereen, and then have Mereen go to hell, but couldn't really figure out how to do it. Having read the book, it seems like his biggest problem was having Dany hang around long enough; that plot spent most of its time going absolutely nowhere, as I recall, though it's been a while since I read it. Which is a shame, because literally everything else in the book was gold, but Dany's sheer pagecount of "should I/shouldn't I" makes me think it's the weakest overall book in the series.

Feast for Crows definitely has its problems, but I've come to think it's much better than people give it credit for. There's a lot of really subtle stuff in there. Plus we get to spend some time with Doran Martell, the Most Metal Motherfucker in Westeros, although I'm seemingly one of very few people who love the Dornish plot thread.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:18 pm

Recently, I stumbled across the notion of Jon Snow being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child and how Daenerys needs two more riders. I think somehow Jon might be one of them. I also think Arya might be one, though I have no idea how she'd go from Braavos to Mereen.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:46 am

I'm not sure how that would work, and I'm not sure I'd like that. Hmmm-but it is interesting to say the least. Anyone else ready for season 3?

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:57 pm

Oh yes. This promises to be the best season yet! I think they've done another outstanding job of casting for new characters this year. Can't wait to see how several things work out. Orrel and presumably the whole Wildling skinchanger thing will be back in. Hopefully they've done the visualization for the over-the-Wall scene. That was one of the best parts of the book to me. Loving the idea of Noah Taylor as the Vargo Hoat character (though I assume he will be toned down quite a bit from the books since they've gone so far as to change the character's name; that was a perfect casting decision), how the Thoros/Dondarrion thing works out, Arya and the Hound, Theon and Ramsay Bolton, the Reeds, the Red Wedding. It should be pretty awesome.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:42 am

I'm so far behind that I'm still reading Clash of Kings, nevermind watching the new season, but something struck me recently: [spoiler]if my theory above about Jon Snow is right [that he's the offspring of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark] and Ygritte's bard's tale is true [that Starks carry the blood of wildlings], then Jon Snow would be the only person I can think of offhand who has wildling blood, dragon blood, and the blood of the children of the forest.[/spoiler]

3278 · Post by **3278** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:41 am

Finished Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying, and [spoiler]I don't see how Jon Snow can be anything other than Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. And "his is the song of ice and fire," which must make him fairly special, if the books are named for him.[/spoiler] Of course, whatever the plan might have been back then, who knows what it might be now: fame, fortune, and the attention of a TV viewing audience are likely to unfortunately affect the course of the books.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:39 pm

When you finish all of the books I'd like to comment on your observations. I'm paying attention, definitely paying attention.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:21 pm

The 100 best tweets about last night's game of thrones.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:55 pm

DV8 wrote:The 100 best tweets about last night's game of thrones.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:05 am

I guess I'm just surprised at how people read the books prior to this show. I mean isn't that how the show got televised?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:49 pm

I've finally started watching some of Season 3 and I'm starting to get the impression that the writers haven't even read the books, but rather been told about their plot by a dying goose on meth. Sometimes I understand their divergence, but sometimes it's just bewildering.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:05 pm

My theory on that is that they're not planning on going beyond season 4.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:09 am

Seriously, they're just making shit up, now.

Raygun wrote:My theory on that is that they're not planning on going beyond season 4.

I'm told there's a very real concern that they'll get Season 5 finished before GRRM - their affectionate abbreviation for their god - gets the next book finished. And even if he releases the sixth book in time to produce the sixth season, what are the odds he'll finish the seventh in a year? Someone wasn't thinking, as per usual for television.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:29 am

I'll be that guy-why not deviate from the book?

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly noticeable-but I'd be willing to see some changes IF they fix some of GRRM's more...flawed flights of fancy here and there.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:34 am

Serious Paul wrote:I'll be that guy-why not deviate from the book?

When it makes sense to serve the purpose, and the medium, why not? Budget and time constraints, not to mention the very real difference between "book" and "TV show" make such differences inevitable. But eliminating Strong Belwas? Why? Totally changing Theon's story? Why? Creating a new character for Robb's wife, and Theon's torturer? Why?

Fixing a flawed plot, sure. Saving thousands of dollars, sure. But they didn't even try to hide Selmy. Why not?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:06 am

Oh, come on! Seriously, did they just read the Cliff Notes? First season, they made scenes from chapters. Third season, they just make shit up. Or did I miss where the Red Lady meets Dondarrion?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:17 am

Okay, so now I'm looking at Gendry's arc, and thinking, "FUCK YOU, FUCKING STUPID FUCKING MORONS, IT WAS FINE THE WAY IT FUCKING WAS." Jesus. Change where change is needed.

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:14 pm

I have been thinking much the same thing. I was kind of looking forward to Strong Belwas.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:45 pm

Now see I miss Strong Belwas, but I almost kind of like the Gendry line. I'll follow it to the end. It's what I do.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:58 pm

3278 wrote:
Serious Paul wrote:I'll be that guy-why not deviate from the book?
When it makes sense to serve the purpose, and the medium, why not? Budget and time constraints, not to mention the very real difference between "book" and "TV show" make such differences inevitable. But eliminating Strong Belwas? Why?

Because he was a minor character that served no real purpose since it was not very practical to keep viewers from knowing that Whitebeard was Barristan Selmy without some kind of magical trickery involved (the likes of which figure into another storyline that has nothing to do with Selmy). It seems to me that they didn't have much choice but to come right out with that, therefore Belwas serves no real purpose. I did want to see his iconic fight scene at Mereen, though. That would have been pretty hilarious.

Totally changing Theon's story? Why?

Leaving Reek out last season is what has annoyed me probably more than anything (along with renaming Asha "Yara" for no god damn reason at all). I don't see how changing that part of the story made anything substantially easier for the writers or better for the plot. Mainly what they're doing with Theon this season is telling part of the story that Martin chose to leave out entirely. They're not really changing anything, they're adding what was only hinted at in later books. I guess because it gives the writers a boner (and some freedom) to work in between things.

Creating a new character for Robb's wife,

I think because her death made the Red Wedding that much more brutal. There's no reason for her to live if she's not the daughter of one of Tywin's bannermen, and if she were, killing her off would not have made much sense. Ultimately she was another minor character who doesn't figure into anything after Robb's death, so you might as well give her a more spectacular out. And judging by how viewers flipped their shit, it worked.

and Theon's torturer? Why?

What? Theon's torturer is Ramsay Snow/Bolton. Same as the books.

Fixing a flawed plot, sure. Saving thousands of dollars, sure. But they didn't even try to hide Selmy. Why not?

As explained above. Also, Selmy was the most famous knight in fucking Westeros and Mormont fought with him during the Greyjoy Rebellion. I've always though it very odd that Mormont wouldn't have known Selmy on sight and this fixes that weirdness.

3278 wrote:Okay, so now I'm looking at Gendry's arc, and thinking, "FUCK YOU, FUCKING STUPID FUCKING MORONS, IT WAS FINE THE WAY IT FUCKING WAS." Jesus. Change where change is needed.

Yeah, I don't really understand that bit either, except to substitute a new character (Edric Storm) for an already established one. How the FUCK would Melisandre even KNOW about Gendry? In addition to that, he was HALF A CONTINENT AWAY WITH A GUERILLA OUTFIT IN THE MIDDLE OF CONTESTED TERRITORY HIDING FROM AN ARMY! How is she going to FIND him? It's very bad writing, but ultimately, it doesn't change anything.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:59 am

Raygun wrote: How is she going to FIND him?

Doesn't every cleric of god X personally know and keep up with the whereabouts of every other cleric of god X in your world? Like, they all have their godberries synced up to the same outlook server or something

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:22 pm

Godberries. I'm going to use that one day, in game.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:30 pm

Raygun wrote:Because he was a minor character that served no real purpose since it was not very practical to keep viewers from knowing that Whitebeard was Barristan Selmy without some kind of magical trickery involved (the likes of which figure into another storyline that has nothing to do with Selmy).

I'd not have bothered to disguise him [much] for the audience, but leave him disguised to the characters; I thought it was crazy they totally left that element out. Having finished the season, Belwas' elimination doesn't trouble me much anymore, though.

Raygun wrote:...along with renaming Asha "Yara" for no god damn reason at all).

So people wouldn't confuse her with "Osha." Which is retarded.

Raygun wrote:I don't see how changing that part of the story made anything substantially easier for the writers or better for the plot.... I guess because it gives the writers a boner (and some freedom) to work in between things.

Yeah, I really feel like there's some of that working: where at first, it was novel for them to work in the books, now it excites them to work outside of them.

Raygun wrote:I think because her death made the Red Wedding that much more brutal.

Couldn't we have done that with the wife from the books? If getting to know her is the issue, let's get to know his wife from the books, then. I felt like the whole "warrior falls in love with healer" plot was naive and obvious, anyway.

Raygun wrote:What? Theon's torturer is Ramsay Snow/Bolton. Same as the books.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking there. Possibly I hadn't yet gotten to where that's exposed?

Raygun wrote:Also, Selmy was the most famous knight in fucking Westeros and Mormont fought with him during the Greyjoy Rebellion. I've always though it very odd that Mormont wouldn't have known Selmy on sight and this fixes that weirdness.

It doesn't seem that weird to me that I wouldn't recognize someone I'd known briefly ten years ago, in a totally new context, with totally different grooming. That could just be me.

Raygun wrote:It's very bad writing, but ultimately, it doesn't change anything.

Changes a lot for Gendry.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:13 am

3278 wrote:
Raygun wrote:...along with renaming Asha "Yara" for no god damn reason at all).
So people wouldn't confuse her with "Osha." Which is retarded.

Yeah but rename her something that sounds and awful lot like "Arya"? WTF.

Raygun wrote:I think because her death made the Red Wedding that much more brutal.
Couldn't we have done that with the wife from the books? If getting to know her is the issue, let's get to know his wife from the books, then. I felt like the whole "warrior falls in love with healer" plot was naive and obvious, anyway.

Well, that's really not all that different from the books. Robb takes an arrow while storming the Crag and Jeyne Westerling heals his wounds. He gets the news that Bran and Rickon are dead, and she comforts him. With her vagina. Apparently.

Raygun wrote:What? Theon's torturer is Ramsay Snow/Bolton. Same as the books.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking there. Possibly I hadn't yet gotten to where that's exposed?

Sorry. Just assumed you were done with it.

It doesn't seem that weird to me that I wouldn't recognize someone I'd known briefly ten years ago, in a totally new context, with totally different grooming. That could just be me.

I guess. It just seems kinda fishy to me. It's like being a college basketball player, meeting Michael Jordan and playing on the same team the season you go pro, then forgetting what he looked like!

Raygun wrote:It's very bad writing, but ultimately, it doesn't change anything.
Changes a lot for Gendry.

Not really. His story line can go on as in the books now. It could be just a weird detour for him. Unless the writers decide to explore it further, which is entirely possible. It could easily converge with the book story again now, though.