My new toy.

[Raygun]

I'm not necessarily a huge advocate of camo patterns on guns either. My FAL was built from a standard Imbel kit, and has a nice shiny black set of furniture on it...gotta do something with it. Figured if I'm going to paint it anyway, might as well take the time to optimize it.

Yeah, true.

It's all about having the right tool for the job, when you need it. If I had to drive back to the station (up to 12 miles away...more for county deputies) to get my rifle when the need arose, I wouldn't bother getting it...I'd make do with whatever I had in the car. Even running lights-and-siren takes time to get through traffic and/or long distances. Doesn't make sense for us to have them at all if they're going to be locked up at the station.

No, definitely not. I understand why they're there and didn't mean to suggest that they shouldn't be. I think it makes sense.

While I could care less what law abiding citizens carry, it doesn't make sense to limit police carry to far less capability than the bad guys have. There are agencies out there that are worried a lot about public image vs. officer safety. When you limit officers (and law abiding citizens alike), then you end up with criminals being the only ones who have access to the heavy-duty hardware, because they don't care if the law says they can't have a fully automatic rifle.

I agree with that completely. Sorry, I was on my way out the door and could have worded that better. Parity is necessary. Disparity is not. While I believe precedent has been set that makes it reasonable for police to carry rifles in their vehicles, I think places like California and Massachusetts have handled it particularly badly by attempting to disarm the public while concurrently stepping up the firepower of police forces. In these cases, It provides an unnecessary disparity of force against the public, and does nothing to address criminals who don't care about the law, as it should. In all honesty, as a citizen, that kind of thing makes me feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. I'm glad I live somewhere more civilized.

In other news: What happens when you give a Swiss guy two 1911s? Pure jackassery.

[paladin2019]

There are a number of reasons we carry AR-15s:

So, you think you might need AP and, due to your peculiar environment, the increased range often enough to warrant a 5.56mm rifle. And the various pistol caliber carbines are too expensive. Ultimately, it's your employers who make that call; if they don't mind AR15s....

Not that I really have a problem with cops having machineguns. As long as they have to jump through the same hoops I do, anyway.

RE: messenger type slingbags, they suck. They suck donkey dick. They never stay where they should when your moving and they invariably find their way between you and whatever you wanted to use as cover. If you want to stay with Maxpedition, check out their Sitka and Monsoon for much better implementation. Otherwise, check Tactical Tailor's LE series, particularly this vest. Or attach stuff to your tactical armor.

[Raygun]

There are a number of reasons we carry AR-15s:

So, you think you might need AP and, due to your peculiar environment, the increased range often enough to warrant a 5.56mm rifle. And the various pistol caliber carbines are too expensive.

Probably not as far as initial cost goes (thinking of the various Ruger carbines here), but in terms of long term support, yes. Pretty much everything is going to be more expensive to maintain than the AR, as there are countless providers to go to. It's a HUGELY supported platform.

Not that I really have a problem with cops having machineguns. As long as they have to jump through the same hoops I do, anyway.

Far as I'm aware, only tactical teams - if even those - get 'machinegun' (full auto) anything, but that depends greatly on the department. I know Las Vegas and Reno do. I'm pretty sure Miami does. I assume LA, NYC, and Chicago do, as well as most of the major metro areas, probably. But there is that difference between ARs and M4s.

[UncleJoseph]

So, you think you might need AP and, due to your peculiar environment, the increased range often enough to warrant a 5.56mm rifle. And the various pistol caliber carbines are too expensive. Ultimately, it's your employers who make that call; if they don't mind AR15s....

Not that I really have a problem with cops having machineguns. As long as they have to jump through the same hoops I do, anyway.

RE: messenger type slingbags, they suck. They suck donkey dick. They never stay where they should when your moving and they invariably find their way between you and whatever you wanted to use as cover. If you want to stay with Maxpedition, check out their Sitka and Monsoon for much better implementation. Otherwise, check Tactical Tailor's LE series, particularly this vest. Or attach stuff to your tactical armor.

This seems to be turning into a debate about what cops should be allowed to carry, and partly an argument about how someone else knows my job better than I do...which is something cops hear almost every day, and I'm over-sensitive to.

1. We carry AR-15s because they have been selected as the weapon of choice, and it meets our /needs/.

2. Nobody in my police department or our multi-agency SWAT team carries fully automatic weapons...they are completely unnecessary. I cannot speak for what other departments do.

3. I am not allowed to wear a tactical vest or tactical armor. I have to throw my concealment vest over top of my shirt and tie. The stuff you seem to be in favor of, is the stuff that our SWAT team wears. I don't like the gearslingers, and they are too large for what I want. The messenger-style bag is what a group of us selected after looking at several options. For our purpose, it does what we need it to. I'm well-aware of the argument that it won't stay in place, but keep in mind that I'm not a SWAT officer. The messenger bag is appropriate for what I'll be doing..we did not select it after just sitting around say, "Hey, this thing would be cool...it's tacti-cool...let's get one." We actually evaluated its features, pros and cons, before selecting it. If it matters to you by now, it has a waist strap that can be worn as a leg strap. I've tested it out, and it stay in place enough for my needs.

I could go into a whole essay about why we are going to use that particular bag, but I don't need to. I did not describe my shooter bag, load-out or why I carry it so that you could debate it with me. This is the "my new toy" thread, not the "Hey guys, I'm wondering if you all with your non-police experience think what I carry is appropriate...if not, then tell me all about what I'm doing wrong so I can learn from you with all your non-police experience, and apply it to my police world," after all. Sorry..that's rather snippy of me.

I don't question what you do for a living and then tell you how to do your job, or that you are doing it all wrong, or that I think you should be carrying some other kind of gear, or that you shouldn't be doing a particular thing...I don't understand what you do every day. You have no clue what I do every day, even though most people /think/ they know cops' jobs better than the cops themselves. It's en vogue these days, and part of our culture, for the public to believe they know more about cop authority, cop daily routine, cop life, cop procedure and law than the cops.

I'm all for police accountability, though. Corrupt or inept cops give the rest of us bad names. People should care what their police are doing and why, but almost everyone's got an opinion based on television, film and the press...hardly accurate representations of what I do. But most people don't give a shit about soldier accountability. But people see the world through non-cop eyes, don't study law & procedure like cops do, aren't trained to be cops and have no idea what it takes to keep serving a public that very much hates you and what you stand for (even though if they really understood, there would be a lot more support for law enforcement, rather than hatred).

It's my fault for getting upset, really. I know that every time I post anything related to my job, I'll start getting critiqued and the opinions start flowing. You may think I just have a fragile ego...not true. I am confident in my reasoning on things. Could I be wrong? Sure, but we all make the best choices with what we have to work with at th time. I read these types of critiques and opinions as coming from an attitude of arrogant, but ignorant, condescension. If they aren't meant that way, I apologize. I almost always overreact to these types of discussions, and I'm very sensitive to them. It's because I've spent a career being on the receiving end of a large portion of the public (not just the criminals) that sees me as the enemy. So when people want to armchair how I do my job, why I do my job, or constantly tell me what's wrong with law enforcement, you're damn right I get offended.

Soldiers experience some of this, and much of our careers overlap. However, as I stated in a previous post, our Rules of Engagement and Standard Operating Procedures are very different. While there is overlap and many similarities, the job is very different.

Someone's going to ask if somebody pissed my corn flakes this morning...it would appear they have. And, at the risk of starting an even bigger argument, I'm click on submit instead of deleting the above rant.

EDIT:

I should add that I do respect folks opinions on a great many things discussed on this site. It's why I asked yours and Ray's opinion about painting my FAL...I have no experience in painting a gun. One of the things I like about discussion forums like this, is that I feel we can often have constructive banter about things, and I can keep touch with non-cop people. Cops have a tendency to isolate themselves from anyone who isn't in the police family. I feel that's very dangerous. But I have to remember to take it easy when I start to feel like folks are attacking my profession...things often feel like that and I get defensive about it.

[UncleJoseph]

I agree with that completely. Sorry, I was on my way out the door and could have worded that better. Parity is necessary. Disparity is not. While I believe precedent has been set that makes it reasonable for police to carry rifles in their vehicles, I think places like California and Massachusetts have handled it particularly badly by attempting to disarm the public while concurrently stepping up the firepower of police forces. In these cases, It provides an unnecessary disparity of force against the public, and does nothing to address criminals who don't care about the law, as it should. In all honesty, as a citizen, that kind of thing makes me feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. I'm glad I live somewhere more civilized.

I probably got defensive, as I detailed in my reply to Paladin, which looking back on it, makes /me/ out to be the asshole. Anyway...

If I look through my cop eyes at your response, I would disagree that disparity is a bad thing. I think disarming the public and stepping up the firepower of police are two completely unrelated things. If I understand you correctly, you feel that the public at large should have access to all the things the police have access to. Is that accurate?

As a police officer, I would want "better toys" than the average person has access to. This is the same reasoning applied to the military...we don't want our military to have sub-standard or less-capable equipment than the enemy (I don't see the public as the enemy...I'll expound on this more in a minute). For me, everyone is a free citizen, and free to do what they want, until they break the law. At that point, lawbreakers become my responsibility. If John Q. Citizen is a normal, law-abiding citizen one day, but then does something horrible the next, he becomes my problem. Now, if John Q. Citizen is armed to the teeth because he can have all the same toys police have, I'd rather have some "firepower" that is out of his reach if he goes off and starts acting all violent. One example is the Taser, which, in Michigan, is law-enforcement/military only. I don't believe in a level playing field for law enforcement or the military. The problem with disparity, of course, is when the government becomes oppressive and exerts its will on the public via force. This is why we have the 2nd Amendment.

On the other hand, I'm also a civilian who is subject to the same oppression the rest of you might be. So if/when the police abuse their authority with me, I'd want that playing field to be more level, so I could respond to that oppression...I'm legally allowed to.

The problem with any argument for or against one side or the other, is that we are all human. Often, police make an honest mistake regarding someone's rights...people say that's unacceptable, but really? People will make mistakes, period. The same goes for citizens. If we all have access to the same things, then what are police supposed to do when a citizen loses his mind and starts shooting up the school? I don't think that situation should be a 50/50 fair fight when police go in to stop the threat, thereby doing their jobs and protecting public safety.

It's an interesting debate...part of me wants better toys than the average person because I may have to respond in force against what the average person has access to. The other part of me fears government oppression just like everyone else.

[UncleJoseph]

Another reason I'm quick to start explaining things about law enforcement, is that I really, truly want people to understand what it is we do and why we do it. I just often find that folks have made up their minds, and aren't interested in any explanations. Sometimes I get frustrated and just ignore the shit I hear about cops that is so inaccurate it's laughable (yet so many people will jump on the bandwagon). Other times I feel like I have to chime in. All it really does is stress me out.

[Raygun]

I understand and I apologize for my part in turning the conversation in this direction. I should have just ignored those comments. I'd rather talk shop than politics, honestly!

[sinsual]

A Nite-Ize #4 75# tensile strength "Biner" is the messenger bag's Best friend and should be standard with every one sold. Clipped to the bag and a belt loop does a phenomenal job of keeping the bag from moving around, yet is large enough to quickly and blindly un-clip from your belt loop.

Back to shop..

Home invasion is occurring...

Do you put in lightly rated silicone ear plugs before leaving your bedroom?


Left field, out of my ass thought...(just because "I Could")

Convert a Saiga .410 to Heavy Loaded .45LC ? (this came from an Author's discussion for a Werewolf/Vampire storyline)

[paladin2019]

1. We carry AR-15s because they have been selected as the weapon of choice, and it meets our /needs/.

Ummm, dude, like I said, you did the analysis and made a decision based on your area of operations. I didn’t say cops should never have service rifles, I said based on the baseline (like 100m = long range engagement), they shouldn’t be the default.

3. I am not allowed to wear a tactical vest or tactical armor. I have to throw my concealment vest over top of my shirt and tie.

Seriously? Like absolutely no, you can’t wear big boy armor if it’s bad enough that you get to pull out your big boy gun?

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? You can’t put on a big black vest with scary snaps and straps but you can do an overweight Rick Santorum impersonation?

The stuff you seem to be in favor of, is the stuff that our SWAT team wears.

Well, yeah, it’s what I know, it’s what I’ve done and I’m still pushing air past my teeth so it must be right. Right?

I break systems. I’ve been breaking systems since 1993. You post a system. It’s important because it will be used if people shoot at you. So I try to break your system before someone breaks it with a bullet. If I didn’t give a fuck, I wouldn’t bother.

[paladin2019]

A Nite-Ize #4 75# tensile strength "Biner" is the messenger bag's Best friend and should be standard with every one sold. Clipped to the bag and a belt loop does a phenomenal job of keeping the bag from moving around, yet is large enough to quickly and blindly un-clip from your belt loop.

Belt loops are covered when it matters

Back to shop..

Home invasion is occurring...

Do you put in lightly rated silicone ear plugs before leaving your bedroom?

Nope. I'll go deaf for awhile.

Left field, out of my ass thought...(just because "I Could")

Convert a Saiga .410 to Heavy Loaded .45LC ? (this came from an Author's discussion for a Werewolf/Vampire storyline)

As I don't know enough about the technical merits here, I have to ask about the game mechanics. Why? First, I assume the idea comes from the Judge's capability. Does the author want the user to essentially have an AK SMG platform? Precision shooting vs scatter? In a game, why not?

[UncleJoseph]

Seriously? Like absolutely no, you can’t wear big boy armor if it’s bad enough that you get to pull out your big boy gun?

Seriously. We already had the discussion with our bosses about trying to get raid vests...the answer was a resounding "NO!" It sucks, because carrying a satchel around isn't the best option. They originally had us carrying Adidas gym bags everywhere we went instead of briefcases. It was getting a little strange for a bit.

Well, yeah, it’s what I know, it’s what I’ve done and I’m still pushing air past my teeth so it must be right. Right?

I break systems. I’ve been breaking systems since 1993. You post a system. It’s important because it will be used if people shoot at you. So I try to break your system before someone breaks it with a bullet. If I didn’t give a fuck, I wouldn’t bother.

I get it, and I appreciate that you have experience with the type of gear I'm talking about. I should have been more detailed in why I chose what I chose...it would've made more sense if I'd posted all the reasons we couldn't use alternatives, or that some stuff wasn't allowed.

[3278]

Well, yeah, it’s what I know, it’s what I’ve done and I’m still pushing air past my teeth so it must be right. Right?

Not necessarily. It may be right for what you do, but different situations may call for different solutions. What is appropriate for you would not be appropriate, for example, for Paul, because the differing situation requires a differing response. You are factoring in the survival elements that pertain to your expertise, but lack the required expertise to factor in additional elements which do not.

[sinsual]

Back to shop..

Left field, out of my ass thought...(just because "I Could")

Convert a Saiga .410 to Heavy Loaded .45LC ? (this came from an Author's discussion for a Werewolf/Vampire storyline)

As I don't know enough about the technical merits here, I have to ask about the game mechanics. Why? First, I assume the idea comes from the Judge's capability. Does the author want the user to essentially have an AK SMG platform? Precision shooting vs scatter? In a game, why not?

It isn't for game play.This came up during an Author Panel Discussion at a recent Book Convention. An Author of Urban Paranormal genre was at Cabela's doing "Gun Research", basically fitting a gun to her hand and learning about it when she spotted the Saiga. As the Judge/Governor were two she had been handling, it piqued her curiosity if it could be Modified/Loaded like it was suggested to her as the Judge/Governor. First couple loaded with shotgun rounds(2/3) and the last 3 being LC's.

Her intent is to have her Gun info be accurate. The clerk at Cabela's told her right off the Saiga could not be loaded for LC as it was not designed to handle the recoil. During the panel, I explained about a heavier barrell, bolt and slide, but suggested it would be easier to just use a Mare's Leg lever action in .410/.45LC as there was no gaurantee the Saiga would properly cycle reliably between the two different loadings.

[paladin2019]

Well, yeah, it’s what I know, it’s what I’ve done and I’m still pushing air past my teeth so it must be right. Right?

Not necessarily. It may be right for what you do, but different situations may call for different solutions. What is appropriate for you would not be appropriate, for example, for Paul, because the differing situation requires a differing response. You are factoring in the survival elements that pertain to your expertise, but lack the required expertise to factor in additional elements which do not.

That was sarcasm, for all of the reasons you just stated.

[Raygun]

This looks pretty cool, as far as long gun lights go.

[paladin2019]

This looks pretty cool, as far as long gun lights go.

If I didn't already have a couple of Insights, I would definitely buy this. I might still get one; just found out I'm going to "play" again this summer.

[sinsual]

Budget: $1500
Platform: AR
Use: Long Range Silhouette, Hunting (Deer up to and or Elk), Steel Target etc
Caliber: .223/5.56,7.62/.308,.300AAC/Blackout, 7.62x39 etc. Open as long as it is easily re-loadable. Something like a 6.5 Grendel or .50 Beowulf are out.
Barrel:16-20 inches
Twist: 1:7-1:10

By the end of the summer I will have my reloading bench up and running. I will be hand loading .223 for Handgun Silhouette, which means the loads need to be under 2000FPS or be completely frangible. I will also be loading .45 Colt and .308.


What would you purchase? Or Build for that Budget, and why?

Keep in mind, Elk tags are done on a Lottery here. I was not drawn this year and it might be 3-4 before I do get drawn. I can and may still get a Deer tag for this year, and I may try my hand at Varmint since it is year round. Deer here can be taken easily with .223 hunting loads, but .308 would be more reasonable.

[3278]

Platform: AR

Why's that, now?

[sinsual]

Platform: AR

Why's that, now?

Flexability.
With one platform, I can have a 5 round mag for hunting and a 20 round mag for competition.

I am not able to get away with a gun for every use, so I need to measure the all around use to fit my budget. Having attended a few of the different competitions held over at Ben Avery, aside from ammo cost, it is an inexpensive way to get the same relaxation as I get out of racing. Ammo is still cheaper than tires
I am also slowing down. In the last several months, the body has let me know that competitively racing is not going to happen any more. Even running at the drags is leaving me in pain at the end of the night in my upper body joints. Aside from autocross, there isn't much in car racing that is affordable, and autocross here is very expensive for the entry fees. A weekend could run $1500 easily.

[Raygun]

Budget: $1500
Platform: AR
Use: Long Range Silhouette, Hunting (Deer up to and or Elk), Steel Target etc
Caliber: .223/5.56,7.62/.308,.300AAC/Blackout, 7.62x39 etc. Open as long as it is easily re-loadable. Something like a 6.5 Grendel or .50 Beowulf are out.
Barrel:16-20 inches
Twist: 1:7-1:10

By the end of the summer I will have my reloading bench up and running. I will be hand loading .223 for Handgun Silhouette, which means the loads need to be under 2000FPS or be completely frangible. I will also be loading .45 Colt and .308.


What would you purchase? Or Build for that Budget, and why?

Okay. First of all, 6.5 Grendel is the absolute best long range cartridge for the AR-15 platform, period. If you want long range AR-15, you want 6.5 Grendel. Past 700m it performs better than .308 175 SMK with most 123 grain loads, and doesn't go transonic until about 1,400m. If you're going to be handloading, dies for it are cheap and the load is much, much more suitable for deer at medium and long ranges than .223. If hunting or long range target use are priorities, I strongly recommend you reconsider this.

For the AR-10 platform, I recommend .260 Remington over .308. Same 6.5mm/.264" bullet as the Grendel, but heavier and longer thus even more ballistically efficient. Uses all the same stuff as .308 (mags, etc) except bullets and loading dies. Brass can easily be formed from .308 brass. It pretty much matches the 6.5x55mm Swedish in terms of ballistics, which the Scandinavians have been using to take down moose for more than a century now (of course, a relatively short range environment has something to do with that). Loaded .260 ammo isn't as widely available as .308, but if you're handloading, who cares?

I would stay completely away from 7.62x39mm in the AR platform and go with .300 AAC if you like the idea of an intermediate .30 cal cartridge. The .300 AAC uses .308 bullets (as opposed to .311) which means there are a much, much wider range of bullet weights and designs available for it. Matches 7.62x39mm ballistics with 125 grain loads. It is an extremely versatile cartridge and would be much better suited for silhouette than .223. I'm not sure what the exact rules for the silhouette matches you're planning on doing are, but since the overall objective is knocking over steel targets at some kind of velocity limit, you'll want the heaviest bullet load you can get. Bullets for the .300 AAC go up to 240 grains, where the .223 is limited to about 90 grains (and for that you'll need a 1:7 barrel).

In either case, I would build it myself on receivers from Mega Arms (the Ambi Billet lower for the AR-15, or the MATEN set for AR-10). There's really only two special tools you need to build an AR (a barrel nut wrench and an upper receiver block) and together they're well under $100. Since you're the mechanically inclined type, I imagine you'll have the rest of the tools you'd need.

Decent optics are the big question, and probably the biggest single expense, and that depends greatly on what kind of shooting you intend to do the most of. I haven't really worked out pricing on AR-10 rifles, but a decent target AR-15 is likely to set you back about $1,200 just for the rifle and that doesn't leave you a lot of wiggle room for glass.

Keep in mind, Elk tags are done on a Lottery here. I was not drawn this year and it might be 3-4 before I do get drawn. I can and may still get a Deer tag for this year, and I may try my hand at Varmint since it is year round. Deer here can be taken easily with .223 hunting loads, but .308 would be more reasonable.

You've already got a .308 bolt action though, right? Use that for elk. Or did you get rid of that?

[sinsual]

Okay. First of all, 6.5 Grendel is the absolute best long range cartridge for the AR-15 platform, period. If you want long range AR-15, you want 6.5 Grendel. Past 700m it performs better than .308 175 SMK with most 123 grain loads, and doesn't go transonic until about 1,400m. If you're going to be handloading, dies for it are cheap and the load is much, much more suitable for deer at medium and long ranges than .223. If hunting or long range target use are priorities, I strongly recommend you reconsider this.

Keep in mind, Elk tags are don...snip.

You've already got a .308 bolt action though, right? Use that for elk. Or did you get rid of that?

Thanks for the Grendal Update, which is why I asked. Many of the locals don't seem to fond of the Grendel "because it is a pain to get brass". Mind you, these are people who hand load .22Hornet, .22 Fireball, 7TC, 6BR etc...

The scope has a separate budget, though, I have just gotten a BSA Mil Dot 4-16x40IR which came with the .223 Bull barrel I got for the Rossi. So I have a little longer on the glass as long as I stay out of the 500+ yard matches. It is perfect for the handgun silhouette. On the subject, I can load the .223 much like the .22Hornet. Round nose, lead core, or even, just lead round nose can be done. Both rounds use .224 bullets.

I still have the Axis in .308, the idea being if I got something all around, I could pass the Axis on to my son. If not, then I had the Axis for game larger than what the AR would efficiently cover.

Since you're the mechanically inclined type, I imagine you'll have the rest of the tools you'd need.

Short of a real mill or a lathe, yes, I do. I bought all of my brother in law's Machinist tools along with his tool chest. From bore gauges, to inside outside mics, to calipers, to dial indicators etc. I have a solid drill press with a machinist's vise that can be used for rough milling. As well as a fair stock of cutters, burrs, and files.

[Raygun]

Thanks for the Grendal Update, which is why I asked. Many of the locals don't seem to fond of the Grendel "because it is a pain to get brass". Mind you, these are people who hand load .22Hornet, .22 Fireball, 7TC, 6BR etc...

Well, it probably is harder to find than some of those (at least the .221 Fireball). There are three sources of brass for the Grendel that I'm aware of. You can buy it direct from Alexander (who developed it) and both Lapua and Hornady make it. It can also be made from 7.62x39mm brass (which isn't as common as you'd think, but it's out there).

Hornady, Alexander and Wolf all make loaded ammo.

Also, Alexander very recently gave up the trademark for the Grendel name in order to have the cartridge SAAMI specified, so there's no threat of legal action against people who try to market with that name any longer. Basically means bigger commercial interests (like Remington and Winchester) who might have been hesitant about being sued can support the cartridge now, if they see profit in it.

The scope has a separate budget, though, I have just gotten a BSA Mil Dot 4-16x40IR which came with the .223 Bull barrel I got for the Rossi. So I have a little longer on the glass as long as I stay out of the 500+ yard matches.

I have almost the same scope (6-24x40 IR) on my AR rifle at the moment. Far from great glass, but it works for learning mil dots and shooting gophers and coyotes! In that case, you could get a decent free float handguard and 1-piece scope mount and stay in budget.

It is perfect for the handgun silhouette. On the subject, I can load the .223 much like the .22Hornet. Round nose, lead core, or even, just lead round nose can be done. Both rounds use .224 bullets.

So you're doing handgun silhouette with a rifle? I may be missing something... OH the Rossi?

I still have the Axis in .308, the idea being if I got something all around, I could pass the Axis on to my son. If not, then I had the Axis for game larger than what the AR would efficiently cover.

Ah. In that case, .308 may be a better idea in an AR-10 for you.

On the other hand, I think .30-06 is a better elk cartridge anyway and rifles chambered for it practically grow on trees between here and there, so you're not looking at a huge chunk of money even if you DO draw a tag and buy another rifle later. Just something to think about.

Short of a real mill or a lathe, yes, I do. I bought all of my brother in law's Machinist tools along with his tool chest. From bore gauges, to inside outside mics, to calipers, to dial indicators etc. I have a solid drill press with a machinist's vise that can be used for rough milling. As well as a fair stock of cutters, burrs, and files.

Then you're better off than I am and I've built two of 'em!

[sinsual]

So you're doing handgun silhouette with a rifle? I may be missing something... OH the Rossi?

Bottom to top:
.22LR w/4-9x40 Bushnell
.45 Colt/.410
.223 1:12 twist (23 inch barrel) Will be cut down to 11 Inches with a 1-2 inch muzzle brake added. Barrel outside diameter is .811 inch


Outside Chamber diameter 1.125 inch

The remaining 12 Inches of barrel can be re-bored as I see fit. The bottom lug which mates to the frame is very straight forward and easy to replicate

FYI:
Winchester Quality Control at its best...

[sinsual]

After a little manipulation of funds, and for a very good price, (under $600 OTD with Red Dot sight) I have picked up a DPMS Panther Sportical in 5.56 Nato. Flat top with Rail. If things pan out, I will get to put it to use on Feral Pigs next month. ATM, I need a couple of 5 round magazines to be legal, and will be loading the Winchester Razorback ammo. Now to track down an Upper in 6.5 Grendel (Okay Ray you sold me, and after much research, it is easy to see why you sold me on it)

[Raygun]

After a little manipulation of funds, and for a very good price, (under $600 OTD with Red Dot sight) I have picked up a DPMS Panther Sportical in 5.56 Nato. Flat top with Rail.

Wow. That's not much for an AR.

If things pan out, I will get to put it to use on Feral Pigs next month. ATM, I need a couple of 5 round magazines to be legal, and will be loading the Winchester Razorback ammo.

I have a couple of these mags (mine are 30s though) and they're pretty good. As I was telling UJ a while back, I'm pretty sure C-Products makes them.

Now to track down an Upper in 6.5 Grendel (Okay Ray you sold me, and after much research, it is easy to see why you sold me on it)

Unless you can find someone selling a used one, it's probably going to be pretty difficult to beat just building one yourself on a barrel and upper straight from Alexander. This is what I plan to do very soon. Alexander also sells complete uppers if you don't want to mess with that.

[Raygun]

Hey Bonefish... Thought you might like a look at this. An AK rear iron sight in the right place, and an aperture sight to boot.

[3278]

I sure would like to own an AK, but I don't really have anything to do with one. I don't want to dump a bunch of money into this thing, and then use it three times a year when I can get to a range; it's just not worth the money to sit and stare at my awesome assault rifle. But that only stops me from buying one, not from wanting one.

[paladin2019]

Hey Bonefish... Thought you might like a look at this. An AK rear iron sight in the right place, and an aperture sight to boot.

Did I read the directions right? The recoil spring maintains tension on the sight?

[Raygun]

I sure would like to own an AK, but I don't really have anything to do with one. I don't want to dump a bunch of money into this thing, and then use it three times a year when I can get to a range; it's just not worth the money to sit and stare at my awesome assault rifle. But that only stops me from buying one, not from wanting one.

Better to have it and not need it than... well, you know the rest! It'd be nice if they were as cheap as the used to be, but even the low end Romanian ones are around $500 now.

Did I read the directions right? The recoil spring maintains tension on the sight?

Yup. An unfortunate limitation of the AK being designed very Russianly is that if you want to put the rear sight in the right place (as far back on the receiver as possible, maximizing your sight radius) without replacing the whole rear trunnion (which would be the proper but very difficult way to do it) means that this rear sight assembly has to replace the back end of the recoil spring assembly. Also, the bolt carrier can't be removed without taking off the rear sight. I'm not exactly sure why that's the case, but apparently it is. As long as the thing attaches solidly, the trade offs seem worth it to me. But I really, really dislike the AK's stock rear sight. Obsolete 1880's technology that should never have been put on the thing in the first place.

[3278]

Better to have it and not need it than... well, you know the rest! It'd be nice if they were as cheap as the used to be, but even the low end Romanian ones are around $500 now.

Yeah, but $500 - which is something like 2 months of groceries for us, or a couple years' electric bill - is a high price to pay for something I'm almost certainly not going to need! [Particularly when I can borrow: thanks, John and Eric and Joseph!] Actually, other than hunting [and my daughter's set on bows for that], I can't think of an actual use for an AK, for me at any rate.

Of course, I wouldn't buy a new one, anyway. [I don't think I own a new anything anymore; the only things I own that I bought new I purchased over a decade ago!] What's a decent used one go for these days? It seems to me I recall one of my friends picking up an SKS some years back for $50, but it may also have fallen off the back of a truck.

[Bonefish]

Hey Bonefish... Thought you might like a look at this. An AK rear iron sight in the right place, and an aperture sight to boot.

I hate peep sights I do need some ritium put on my sights....


AND, soon, me and a former boss of mine(former, cuz I'm a BOSS!) wants to go to the range...

[Bonefish]

Better to have it and not need it than... well, you know the rest! It'd be nice if they were as cheap as the used to be, but even the low end Romanian ones are around $500 now.

Yeah, but $500 - which is something like 2 months of groceries for us, or a couple years' electric bill - is a high price to pay for something I'm almost certainly not going to need! [Particularly when I can borrow: thanks, John and Eric and Joseph!] Actually, other than hunting [and my daughter's set on bows for that], I can't think of an actual use for an AK, for me at any rate.

Of course, I wouldn't buy a new one, anyway. [I don't think I own a new anything anymore; the only things I own that I bought new I purchased over a decade ago!] What's a decent used one go for these days? It seems to me I recall one of my friends picking up an SKS some years back for $50, but it may also have fallen off the back of a truck.

get a 5 round magazin and use it as a "hunting" rifle. Bows are sweet, but rifles are better. I gota romanian 5.56 that I'd be willing to part for with the right amount of compensation

Yes, that means you give me a blow job.

[Jeff Hauze]

Yes, that means you give me a blow job.

Is it Friday already?

[Raygun]

Yeah, but $500 - which is something like 2 months of groceries for us, or a couple years' electric bill - is a high price to pay for something I'm almost certainly not going to need!

You don't need it for the certainty. But they're nice to have for the almost.

Of course, I wouldn't buy a new one, anyway. [I don't think I own a new anything anymore; the only things I own that I bought new I purchased over a decade ago!] What's a decent used one go for these days? It seems to me I recall one of my friends picking up an SKS some years back for $50, but it may also have fallen off the back of a truck.

You know, they must be out there, but I really don't recall ever seeing a used AK for sale. I imagine they hang onto their value pretty well. I paid $280 for mine in 2003 and I wouldn't sell it for less than $500 now.

I hate peep sights

Then you need to shoot more. Much faster and easier to use than open sights like those on the AK.

I do need some ritium put on my sights....

Doing a lot of shooting in the pitch dark, are you? You don't need tritium sights. You may want them, but you don't need them. But if you're dead set on having open tritium sights, the kind made by XS are the best I've seen.

[paladin2019]

Did I read the directions right? The recoil spring maintains tension on the sight?

Yup. An unfortunate limitation of the AK being designed very Russianly is that if you want to put the rear sight in the right place (as far back on the receiver as possible, maximizing your sight radius) without replacing the whole rear trunnion (which would be the proper but very difficult way to do it) means that this rear sight assembly has to replace the back end of the recoil spring assembly. Also, the bolt carrier can't be removed without taking off the rear sight. I'm not exactly sure why that's the case, but apparently it is. As long as the thing attaches solidly, the trade offs seem worth it to me. But I really, really dislike the AK's stock rear sight. Obsolete 1880's technology that should never have been put on the thing in the first place.

Mikhi's recoil system has an op rod and spring behind the bolt carrier and the BC has a piston attached to it's front end. The piston is basically hollow; it has a lip to stop the larger diameter spring while allowing the op-rod to pass through in the operating cycle.

From the diagram, it doesn't look like there's a rod attached to the sight, which would make one wonder how this system prevents the spring from binding instead of recoiling. So I'm going to assume there is a rod attached to the sight, and like unmodified AKs, it is almost inside the piston when the bolt is forward. This prevents the spring from having any free travel to come off the op rod and so the sight, which is atached to the rod, must come off before the bolt, just like unmodified guns. BRILLIANT DESIGN!!!!!!!?

Dude, just wrap the spring around the piston so you don't need any parts behind the bolt carrier, permanently attach the top cover and put the sights in the right damn place. Then you have the SIG 550 series. (Oh, I'm sorry, did i use my outside voice there )

[Bonefish]

Then you need to shoot more. Much faster and easier to use than open sights like those on the AK.

Most definitely true.

I do need some ritium put on my sights....

Doing a lot of shooting in the pitch dark, are you? You don't need tritium sights. You may want them, but you don't need them. But if you're dead set on having open tritium sights, the kind made by XS are the best I've seen.

Well, the thing i dislike about my AK is that due to the dark nature of them, if I'm shooting at something that is also dark, I have trouble focusing on the sights. It's probably lack of skill and familiarity, but I feel like the Tritium sights would help me out a bit.

Keep in mind that I'm functionally blind without my glasses, and even with them, it's hard for me to focus on something as close as a sight. So, you know, crutch time.

[Raygun]

Mikhi's recoil system has an op rod and spring behind the bolt carrier and the BC has a piston attached to it's front end. The piston is basically hollow; it has a lip to stop the larger diameter spring while allowing the op-rod to pass through in the operating cycle.

Well, no. The piston and operating rod are all one solid piece of stainless threaded and pinned into the front end of the bolt carrier: that part is not hollow. The top of the bolt carrier itself is what forms a hollow tube for the recoil spring assembly to ride inside of. The front end of the recoil spring assembly actually impinges directly against the base of the piston/op rod, and due to the fact that that piece is threaded and pinned to the bolt carrier, it moves the carrier along with it. The spring assembly telescopes into itself under recoil by means of two interlocking wire guides.

From the diagram, it doesn't look like there's a rod attached to the sight, which would make one wonder how this system prevents the spring from binding instead of recoiling. So I'm going to assume there is a rod attached to the sight, and like unmodified AKs, it is almost inside the piston when the bolt is forward.

Yeah, the recoil spring assembly functions exactly identical to the factory part. In fact, unless you buy more parts from them, you have to take your old assembly apart and attach the front half of it (spring, guide rod and retaining collar) to the sight, which replaces the back end of the factory recoil spring assembly.

This prevents the spring from having any free travel to come off the op rod and so the sight, which is atached to the rod, must come off before the bolt, just like unmodified guns. BRILLIANT DESIGN!!!!!!!?

About as brilliant as you can make it without replacing the whole rear trunnion, like I said. Well, almost. I can image a way they could make it without having to remove the rear sight at all, but it would probably cost more and who knows if it would provide any appreciable benefit over the way they have it now. It is, after all, an AK. Not exactly a precision rifle. But if that nutnfancy review is to be believed, it seems to work pretty damn well as is.

Dude, just wrap the spring around the piston so you don't need any parts behind the bolt carrier, permanently attach the top cover and put the sights in the right damn place. Then you have the SIG 550 series. (Oh, I'm sorry, did i use my outside voice there )

That would be nice, but there's nothing for the back end of the recoil spring to interface with on the AK if you were to put it there, unfortunately. And if you did put something there, you'd run into the issue of getting the bolt carrier out, as the piston/op rod doesn't easily separate from the bolt carrier and come out the other direction as on the SIG rifles. If you're going to go that far into design change, you might as well just grind off your rivets and replace the standard rear trunnion with one with an integrated rear sight, then either screw or rivet the bitch back on and leave the recoil spring where it is.

Now that you mention it, there is one thing I don't like about the recoil spring being around the op rod like on the SG55x, and that's that it gets in the way of putting the charging handle where it properly belongs: right above your support hand. I think it could also be modified to work relatively easily (on the SG55x, I mean), but as is, that design is not perfect either. WHY DON'T I DO THIS FOR A LIVING? Ergh...

Don't get me wrong. I wholly agree that the SG55x is everything good about the AK nicely modernized (almost 30 years ago!). But modifying the AK into one isn't going to happen without huge changes. With this sight, they're trying to make a good change as cheaply as easily as possible and I think they've got a pretty good start. It could be refined a bit, but it's not a bad start.

[sinsual]

Well, the thing i dislike about my AK is that due to the dark nature of them, if I'm shooting at something that is also dark, I have trouble focusing on the sights. It's probably lack of skill and familiarity, but I feel like the Tritium sights would help me out a bit.

Keep in mind that I'm functionally blind without my glasses, and even with them, it's hard for me to focus on something as close as a sight. So, you know, crutch time.

Aperture sights

Like open sights, aperture sights are iron sights. They are also called "peep" sights and more recently "ghost ring" sights. They use a front sight similar or identical to open sights, but the rear sight is simply a small ring mounted close to the shooter's eye. Aperture sights can be variously mounted on the tang, cocking piece or receiver, depending on the type of rifle. Because the rear sight is much closer to the shooters eye, the sight radius is considerably longer than with a barrel mounted open rear sight, increasing the intrinsic accuracy of the sights.

The shooter looks (peeps) through the rear sight's aperture, attempting to focus only on the front sight and target. (Still impossible, but less so than the three focus points required by open sights.) The eye automatically centers itself in the rear aperture, which is seen only as an out of focus blur (or ghostly ring).

snip

The closer the aperture sight is to the eye, the faster it is to use. The old fashioned tang mounted sights sometimes seen on lever action and single shot rifles are probably the fastest of all iron sights. They also provide the longest possible sighting radius However, they should never be used on powerful rifles, where the recoil and the consequent muzzle jump can drive them into the eye. The best compromise, particularly for a powerful rifle, is probably to mount an aperture sight on the rifle's receiver.

Because they are optically superior to open sights, aperture sights are more accurate. A good shot should shoot 100 yard groups perhaps 33% smaller with an aperture sight than he or she could with factory open sights. Aperture sights also obscure much less of the target and the surrounding area than open sights, and are faster to acquire. Most aperture sight designs allow accurate, repeatable, windage and elevation adjustments.

Receiver mounted aperture sights have been supplied on most infantry rifles for the last 70 years or so and they are probably the best all-around type of iron sights for the hunter. Many, many years ago, before the introduction of practical and reasonably priced telescopic sights, aperture sights were the first choice of savvy riflemen.

[Bonefish]

Ok, ok, so if they are better.... Which model of sight should i be looking at the 100 or 200s?

[Raygun]

The 200 provides both windage and elevation adjustment, like a target sight, but there's really no need for elevation adjustment on the rear sight (the front sight does that), it's just convenient. That said, I'm likely gonna buy the 200 and the two extra parts necessary to convert it to a 100, just because I like fiddling with things. In practice, though, I imagine the 100 will be fine and will probably be what I use. I'm also going to buy their AK sight adjustment tool and keep it in the grip storage compartment.

[sinsual]

http://www.robertrtg.com/416sights.html

with 45° rails, this will be perfect on the DPMS

[Raygun]

http://www.robertrtg.com/416sights.html

with 45° rails, this will be perfect on the DPMS

You have a red dot on top, right? I'd just co-witness the irons through it. What kind of rail handguard were you thinking about?

Though now that I think about it, the HK 416's top rail (for which these sights are made) is a bit higher off the rifle than a standard AR, so these sights are going to be lower than normal on your rifle, by about a quarter inch. They'll still work, you'll just have to jam your face down into the stock a bit more than you would otherwise. Centurion Arms makes similar HK-style drum diopter sights at the correct height, but they're significantly more expensive. They also make very nice rail handguards.

I very much like the picture that front sight provides, with the rounded shroud. Along with the aperture rear, it really helps line the sights up fast and draws your eye to the front sight post. HK knew what was up there. That's why I chose the PRI front sight for my AR carbine. It has a full round shroud (over the top) but unlike the HK sights, it also has an elevation-adjustable M16A2 post.

[sinsual]

http://www.robertrtg.com/416sights.html

with 45° rails, this will be perfect on the DPMS

You have a red dot on top, right? I'd just co-witness the irons through it. What kind of rail handguard were you thinking about?

Though now that I think about it, the HK 416's top rail (for which these sights are made) is a bit higher off the rifle than a standard AR, so these sights are going to be lower than normal on your rifle, by about a quarter inch. They'll still work, you'll just have to jam your face down into the stock a bit more than you would otherwise.

These are made to mount to any NATO 5.56 rifle with a Picatinny rail. If need be, a small riser can be added.

I only got a Centerpoint Red Dot and who knows how long it will last. Not the best quality item. Eventually, I would like an AR specific scope.

[Raygun]

These are made to mount to any NATO 5.56 rifle with a Picatinny rail. If need be, a small riser can be added.

Yes, they'll mount to your rails but they'll still be ~.25" shorter than standard AR sight height because the HK 416 isn't made to the same spec as a standard AR. No one makes a .25" riser, unfortunately (at least not that I've been able to find: I assume this is because the M1913 rail specification would make that difficult). .5" is standard. If you use these sights, they will either be lower or higher than normal. I know .25" doesn't seem like a lot, but it can be enough to be annoying. That said, that is a good deal for that sight set. You may want to try them and see how they work for you.

I only got a Centerpoint Red Dot and who knows how long it will last. Not the best quality item. Eventually, I would like an AR specific scope.

Ah. In that case, the 45 mounts would be great. I got a Burris AR-332 a couple weeks ago. It's a pretty nice low-power AR scope, but I haven't had the chance to take it to the range yet. I hear the Leatherwood CMR 1-4x24mm is pretty good too.

[Raygun]

6.5 Grendel barrel and mags on the way. Now for a decent scope...

[sinsual]

Nice!

My local Cabelas just redid their floor layout and have added a "Tacticool" section. It is difficult to bring myself to pay half the cost of the AR for a railed hand gaurd...

[Raygun]

Yeah, I hear you there. The really well-built, high-end free float rails aren't cheap. YHM and Midwest make good rails that are about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of the name-brandy ones.

Your rifle has a rail on the gas block, right? That'll be fine to mount a front sight (in fact it would be better to have the front sight mounted to the barrel; though you wouldn't be able to use that HK set), and if you want to mount lights and foregrips and such, you can use the Magpul MOE handguard. It is plastic, but it's tough, well-designed, and a lot cheaper than an aluminum rail. In that case all you'd have to do is replace your current handguard set with the MOE one. It's not "military grade" stuff, but for a home defense rifle, it's fine. I have one on my carbine and it works great.

[sinsual]

Correct on the gas block rail.

One thing that has been mentioned to me is that if I keep the sights on the same plane, IE: same distance from the barrel centerline, those HK sights should work fine. Especially since the front sight is adjustable for elevation.

[Raygun]

Correct on the gas block rail.

One thing that has been mentioned to me is that if I keep the sights on the same plane, IE: same distance from the barrel centerline, those HK sights should work fine.

If both are the same distance above the bore, yes. You can still use them. But that won't work unless you buy a rail handguard. Your gas block's rail is lower than the receiver rail.

If you did buy a free float rail handguard with a top rail, you could mount the front sight to the far end of the rail, and the rear sight to the back end of the receiver rail (in the exact same manner as they're designed to mount on the HK 416). You'll still have to deal with the fact that the sights will be lower than is considered optimal on your rifle as it is not an HK 416 and its top rail is ~.25" lower than the top rail on the HK 416.

Keep in mind though, that as a barrel heats up, it has a tendency to droop at the muzzle by a very small degree. Having neither of your sights actually attached to the barrel itself means your point of impact will move off of zero as the barrel heats up. Generally this isn't a huge problem with semi-auto rifles, but it depends on how much ammo you run through it.

So the reasons I recommend you go with a different sight set are:

1) the HK set requires installation of a rail handguard,
2) the HK set will mount uncomfortably low on your rifle, and
3) the front sight is not attached to the barrel, presenting potential problems as the barrel heats up.

Especially since the front sight is adjustable for elevation.

Except that the front sight is not adjustable on the HK set (the rear sight does all the adjustment on the HK sights. Well technically, you can file the front post down to raise elevation, but If you file too far, time for a new post). The front sight will not work at all if attached to your gas block.

If you want to save yourself the cost of having to buy a rail handguard, I would recommend you buy a front sight that will attach to your gas block and go with the MOE handguard to mount lights and/or forward grips. Troy and Midwest both make sights with the same picture as the HK set that will work.

[Bonefish]

Tanget: What do you know about the KH2002?