My new toy.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:33 pm

Nikon does make some very good scopes, for sure. Before I actually got into the store to compare them, I had planned on getting a Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14x40mm. But when I got there, the salesman recommended Burris (as had SDT's hunter-extraordinare mother before hand) so I tried it and I found that the Fullfield II glass was noticeably more brilliant than the Buckmaster. So I compared the Fullfield II to the Nikon Monarch and found them about on par in terms of quality while the Burris was at the same price point as the Buckmaster. So Burris it was.

I have a Swift Premier 4-12x40mm AO also, which I would put on par with the Nikon ProStaff series. I replaced it with the Burris for a reason (works better at dawn/dusk), but the Swift is still a decent scope. It gets the job done so long as it's not too dark out.

Between Nikon, Burris, and Vortex (a relative newcomer), I don't think there are any better scope deals out there.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:24 pm

Well,

I took the .45 out and shot a round of Silhouette...

Scored 3x40

The .22LR conversion got misplaced and I didn't have enough time to track it down this morning. I only had 230gr target loads for the .45 so I was either shooting low or REAL low when I got out to the 40/60/80 yard targets. Man I forgot how small them damn targets are LOL!

There is an NRA sanctioned meet next week so I may either go to watch, or go to do another Shoot Through (Lower priced but not scored for Competition or Points.) Today was also standing and not Freestyle, so no Creedmore position. I also found out the local range uses the same targets for .22LR as it does for the Centerfire rounds. That means I can shoot rounds up to 2000fps without fear of damaging the targets.

Oddly enough, the most popular round out there today was .22Hornet handloads clocked about 1800fps...Most of the scopes were Rifle scopes on Thompson Contenders. One rifle scope was mounted on a Ruger 10 inch barreled .22LR revolver.

The most interesting Custom out there was a Rossi 10 inch barreled Revolver with a Custom Octagonal Bull Barrel, Tube style Iron Sites with a Peep rear sight.

God I miss this shit

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:06 am

So, new gun, a Sterling sporter. After correcting this misassembled springs, it's still a bitch to charge. Has a nasty habit of stovepiping, too. Hoping it will get better with more use. I've only been able to drop 100 rounds through it so far.

EDIT: And sorry about the lack of picks of the FAL as yet, I got snowed out of shooting on the last trip back home. I had to settle for the indoor range in town, so no rifle shooting.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:15 am

paladin2019 wrote:So, new gun, a Sterling sporter. After correcting this misassembled springs, it's still a bitch to charge. Has a nasty habit of stovepiping, too. Hoping it will get better with more use. I've only been able to drop 100 rounds through it so far.

Heh. Cool. Need some Stormtrooper armor now.

EDIT: And sorry about the lack of picks of the FAL as yet, I got snowed out of shooting on the last trip back home. I had to settle for the indoor range in town, so no rifle shooting.

It's cool. Whenever.

Just about have a second AR ready to go. I'll have one set up as a rifle (hopefully converting it to 6.5 Grendel this year) and another as a 5.56mm carbine. Debating on what I want to do about the optics situation. I have a cheapo Aimpoint copy on the carbine at the moment. It works alright out to 300-400m as long as the background isn't too bright. Seriously considering getting the Burris AR332 I've wanted for a while.

Got a Condor Quick One Point Sling recently. Excellent for an inexpensive single point ($22).

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:26 am

Yeah, unfortunately, I may need to get an AR15 at some point. I'm kind of interested in CMP competitons and I can't use the 556 or FAL except in the tactical rifle shoots (which seem to be basically unlimited.)

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:15 am

Well, if you're interested in a used 20" National Match barrel, I have one.

SumDumQuim · Post by **SumDumQuim** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:54 pm

Has he shot someone or something yet, or is it in the pawn shop?

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:56 pm

Good question

Been working a lot, but made it out to the range today.

Savage replaced the scope on the Axis. It no longer starts drifting at the cross hairs after 3-4 rounds. Still needs trigger work, and am thinking of ordering some bedding epoxy from Brownells. I figure, if I screw this one up, I can buy another fairly cheap and not make the same mistake twice

Put in for the Elk Lottery for this year.

Now its a matter of sitting back and seeing what comes my way.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:50 pm

Hey Paladin... Ask and ye shall receive.

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paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:26 pm

Yeah, I know.

My question now is, buy a new gun or send mine to the factory to get cut up. And is cutting possible? The shape of the receiver's been changed, adding the raised area for the weather seal at the end of the charging handle's travel.

If I do get a new one, I'll look seriously at the factory SBRs they've got now.

But I've got a V93 due to ship to my dealer at the end of the week and my 7.62 reticle ACOG for my FAL showed up, too. I'll definitely have to play with these before I look at upgrading the SIG.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:45 am

paladin2019 wrote:My question now is, buy a new gun or send mine to the factory to get cut up. And is cutting possible? The shape of the receiver's been changed, adding the raised area for the weather seal at the end of the charging handle's travel.

I very highly doubt it. You'll likely need a new upper assembly at least. Apparently this new deal has a quick change barrel as well (a feature I was hoping they'd implement. I'm curious to see how they're doing it). The lower controls are all supposed to be ambi also, though I'm not sure why they didn't put the bolt release in the place that makes the most sense, with all that real estate between the trigger and the mag well (same as the ACR and XCR).

I'm not real keen on how they've chosen to go about making the charging handle ambi either. Cutting a slot in the other side of the receiver is the easy way (and certainly an improvement for righties), but not necessarily the best way. I think it would have been better for everyone to put the charging handle around the op rod above the handguard. It just makes more sense ergonomically and it means they'd only have had to change the gas tube, op rod, and handguards (parts that are easily end-user replaceable) rather than the whole receiver. But... I guess that's just me.

If I do get a new one, I'll look seriously at the factory SBRs they've got now.

Yeah. One of those with a .300 AAC barrel would be the shiznit.

But I've got a V93 due to ship to my dealer at the end of the week and my 7.62 reticle ACOG for my FAL showed up, too. I'll definitely have to play with these before I look at upgrading the SIG.

Tell you what, if you get to that point, I may be interested in taking the 556 off your hands (if I don't get a 556R first). Being a lefty, I like the charging handle where it is.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:44 am

The charging handle on this gun is actually the linkage between the bolt and the op rod (with the spring wrapped around the rod like a pistol.) It makes sense to do it this way, to me anyway. As for charging handle position, it can now be in the same place as the XCR and FAL's. My only concern is that it's a reciprocating charging handle where the others aren't.

As for the handguards, I had the factory install the SWAT rails on mine. There's no changing them out. The top rail extends rearward as a monolithic replacement for the receiver rail and the 3, 6 and 9 rails are part of a single sleeve that slides over the top rail and is anchored by the pushpin at the front of the lower and the attachment point for the bayonet lug under the gas block. Redesigning the rails, tube and rod may be more trouble than it's worth.

As for needing a new upper for this, yeah, that's a problem. Unlike AR15s, the upper is the serial numbered part so, legally, that's the gun and that's what can't be mailed.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:55 am

paladin2019 wrote:The charging handle on this gun is actually the linkage between the bolt and the op rod (with the spring wrapped around the rod like a pistol.)

Yeah. Chop off the handle end and you have a pin that links the two together without acting like a charging handle. Also eliminates the need for the weather seal on new rifles. So gas tube, op rod, upper handguard, and a link pin to replace the old charging handle.

It makes sense to do it this way, to me anyway. As for charging handle position, it can now be in the same place as the XCR and FAL's. My only concern is that it's a reciprocating charging handle where the others aren't.

It's not a big deal having the charging handle moving around in front of your face on the AK. I honestly don't even notice it. But on the SIG, the handle sticks up a bit further into your line of sight. It bugged me a little bit, but I've spent far less time with the SIG than the AK, so maybe one could get used to it. It wasn't a huge deal, just a little annoying. I know there's at least one company that makes an aftermarket charging handle for the SIG that angles downward and out of the way.

As for the handguards, I had the factory install the SWAT rails on mine. There's no changing them out. The top rail extends rearward as a monolithic replacement for the receiver rail and the 3, 6 and 9 rails are part of a single sleeve that slides over the top rail and is anchored by the pushpin at the front of the lower and the attachment point for the bayonet lug under the gas block. Redesigning the rails, tube and rod may be more trouble than it's worth.

Compared to expecting current owners to shell out for a new rifle if they want a charging handle in a more convenient spot? I don't know, man... The top rail can be replaced though, right? I mean, it just screws into the top of the receiver in three or four places and locks under the gas block in the front, correct? If it looks like the rail in the picture above, seems like it would be a pretty simple change to cut a slot running lengthwise on either side underneath the top rail. Same goes for the standard plastic handguards. Just the top section needs to change.

As for needing a new upper for this, yeah, that's a problem. Unlike AR15s, the upper is the serial numbered part so, legally, that's the gun and that's what can't be mailed.

It can be mailed. You can mail firearms to FFLs, including licensed manufacturers. But unless they implement some kind of receiver exchange program, I don't see why you'd need to. And being that the upper is the serialed part, that would mean a whole lot of paperwork for them, so I don't see that happening either. If they'd just implement a change that avoided alteration to the receiver, none of this would be an issue. For those reasons it makes very little sense to me why they're going about it this way, honestly.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:24 pm

SumDumQuim wrote:Has he shot someone or something yet, or is it in the pawn shop?

Nope.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:01 am

Hmmm...it is interesting what can fall someone's way from time to time...

Scored (though for some it may be cursed) a Rossi Match Pair Pistol .22LR+.45LC/.410 interchangeable barrel system ala TC for a whopping large Benjamin...including the scope.

The .22LR barrel is Offset bored so the top of the rim is what the firing pin strikes. The rear sight is drilled to match the weaver rail for a TC Contender/Encore, so it made mounting a scope dead simple. Sighting in at 50 yards took a little time, especially as shaky as my arm can get. Shooting Federal Bulk .22lr, using my left wrist as a support atop the bench, I got a 3" 5-shot circle at 100 yards. (replicates the "Flop" freestyle shooting position in competition without laying down)

My real disappointment is in the stock sights. Fragile plastic crap doesn't even come close. Sadly, the .45LC/.410 barrel is NOT drilled the same, so the same weaver mount is not useable, and to keep it in the Field Pistol NRA/IHMSA class, I need to use a "as manufactured" scope mount. I can't make on of my own, and I can't modify one, so I need to find a weaver rail that will fit.

I also got rid of the Witness, after breaking the recoil spring on the new barrel combo, I hit my end. Sold it for twice what I was expecting, and turned around and got a NIB S&W Sigma .40S&W, 300 rounds, and the above mentioned Rossi...

I call that a win

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:20 am

sinsual wrote: .40S&W,

You're killin' me, man.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:05 am

paladin2019 wrote:
sinsual wrote: .40S&W,
You're killin' me, man.

Killing you softly

It's all good, I expected some razzing on that admission.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:22 am

Well, having a working gun is certainly better than having one that keeps breaking down on you. I don't think the .40 S&W is a terrible cartridge (no .45 ACP or 10mm, but still plenty powerful for self defense use), but I'm not a fan of the S&W Sigma at all. American-made Glock. But if you get along with the Glock, the Sigma ought to work out just fine.

Thinking about my next handgun purchase. Either I'm gonna risk it on a EAA Witness 10mm (which I've wanted for a long time and they're cheap), an FNP 45 (I've already got a .45 and I'm not a huge fan of plastic guns), or replace the 4" Taurus 608 I sold a few years back.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:49 am

Raygun, my last Glock was in 10mm, so no, I don't mind the Glock, I spent half the cost of a new Glock on the Sigma, NIB unfired 2 mags and an Uncle Mikes holster.

If you do get a 10mm Witness, buy a Wolf Spring pack. The heavier recoil spring is supposed to cure the cracking slide issue. The allegation being the slide is twisting at the end of the recoil stroke because the stock spring isn't slowing it down enough.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:08 pm

I will definitely be doing that. Though I don't plan on putting full power loads through the thing. Ideally, I think 200 grain XTPs @ 1000 fps ought to do the trick.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:27 am

Raygun wrote:Though I don't plan on putting full power loads through the thing.

If you're going to pussy-load it, you might as well get a .40.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:43 am

You know, I've heard you can stuff 200 grain bullets in a .40 S&W case if you swage a boat tail into the bullet and you can still get a little over 900 fps out of it, which isn't bad. That's in .45 ACP territory. But it's a lot of work. Normally you're stuck with 180 grain bullets, and the only .40 I've had didn't shoot them well. So, 10mm it is. No problem with 200 grainers, and letting them fly at 1250 fps is a bit much anyway.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:17 pm

Raygun wrote:You know, I've heard you can stuff 200 grain bullets in a .40 S&W case if you swage a boat tail into the bullet and you can still get a little over 900 fps out of it, which isn't bad. That's in .45 ACP territory. But it's a lot of work. Normally you're stuck with 180 grain bullets, and the only .40 I've had didn't shoot them well. So, 10mm it is. No problem with 200 grainers, and letting them fly at 1250 fps is a bit much anyway.

www.doubletapammo.com

Has several 200gr loadings with 1050-1100fps speeds

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:09 pm

Ooo! Good to know. Hadn't seen a 200 grain load over 950 fps for the .40 S&W, let alone a commercial one (though I must admit, I haven't done a whole lot of looking). They've got two jacketed loads, but they look like good ones. The only big issue that comes to mind loading the .40 like that is of brass life. Underloading the 10mm means your brass will last a very long time. Max out the .40, and both the brass and your gun are going to feel it. BUT there are shitloads more .40's out there, so... Hmm. Something to ponder.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:44 am

Lazerlyte RSL for the Sigma has arrived!

I also need to order a crossbreed Supertuck IWB holster. I am glad I waited instead of ordering one for the witness.

Your right on the life of the brass, the brass for the 10mm is "Magnum" grade along the lines of a .357 Mag...Wonder if you could cut down the 10mm brass to the .40 length and then +P the loads...

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:09 pm

Well, got the AR carbine upper back from ze machinist today.

Still need a couple of things to round this one off (optic, small bits and pieces), but it's in shooting condition now. Range pics to come.

And here's the rifle and carbine both.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:21 pm

Next time, do me a favor and leave that checkbook open when you take a picture. And zoom in closer. There's not enough detail on the...gun. That's right.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:41 pm

Nice kit you got there, Ray. Will you be offended if I told you my newest toy is a Diamond Outlaw compound bow? Once that's tricked out, I'll be in the market for a Benelli SuperNova.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:52 pm

UncleJoseph wrote:Nice kit you got there, Ray. Will you be offended if I told you my newest toy is a Diamond Outlaw compound bow?

I demand pictures. While you're wearing a red headband.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:15 am

Jeff Hauze wrote:
UncleJoseph wrote:Nice kit you got there, Ray. Will you be offended if I told you my newest toy is a Diamond Outlaw compound bow?
I demand pictures. While you're wearing a red headband.

I've been working out...

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:11 am

UncleJoseph wrote:Nice kit you got there, Ray. Will you be offended if I told you my newest toy is a Diamond Outlaw compound bow?

Hells naw. I've been thinking about getting back into archery myself. At least I could practice that in the back yard.

Once that's tricked out, I'll be in the market for a Benelli SuperNova.

Which one? I've been kind of digging on that Mossberg 500 Cruiser with the breaching brake on it. This one.

I wish they sold the barrels with the brakes on them (they make them for the Remington 870, but not for their own gun? WTF?) I already have a 500 I could convert, but I'm not finding those barrels anywhere.

UncleJoseph wrote:
Jeff Hauze wrote:
UncleJoseph wrote:Nice kit you got there, Ray. Will you be offended if I told you my newest toy is a Diamond Outlaw compound bow?
I demand pictures. While you're wearing a red headband.

I've been working out...

TUH!

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:46 am

Raygun wrote:Which one?

The Benelli SuperNova Tactical with rifle stock...I went back and forth about the rifle vs. pistol stock. On a pump shotgun, the rife stock, for me, is easier and more balanced than the pistol grip. If I was getting the M4 semi-auto, it'd be pistol grip all the way.

The Mossberg 500 and its progeny are great weapons. I work with a lot of Remington snobs...most of their reasons for slamming a Mossberg are based on their lack of experience with them, and a bunch of anecdotal "my daddy always said" kind of logic. My Mossberg 500 never failed me, and I put a crap-ton of rounds through it over the years. I got rid of it back when I had to sell one gun to get another one in my poor-college-kid years. Now I don't sell..I just buy more! But that gun and my Remington 700 varmint .308 are 2 guns I wished I'd never sold/traded.

On another note, Ray, I see you're using the P-Mags...how do you like them? My standard mags are the CProducts aluminum mags, but the company is in transition and the old stock is drying up. I've been apprehensive about the P-mags...some people swear by them, some swore them off. I like the fit and feel of the standard aluminum mags...my active shooter kit for work contains them. I just don't know about the P-mags, but I would weigh your opinion pretty heavily.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:08 am

UncleJoseph wrote:I've been working out...

Tease.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:31 am

UncleJoseph wrote:The Mossberg 500 and its progeny are great weapons. I work with a lot of Remington snobs...most of their reasons for slamming a Mossberg are based on their lack of experience with them, and a bunch of anecdotal "my daddy always said" kind of logic. My Mossberg 500 never failed me, and I put a crap-ton of rounds through it over the years.

Yeah, I hear that a lot too. I don't think people realize that mechanically, the two are almost identical. The kicker for me is the safety (which is ambidextrous on the Mossberg and as such a big plus for me). I think the Mossbergs are better finished, too. But what are you gonna do? People like what they're used to, I guess.

On another note, Ray, I see you're using the P-Mags...how do you like them? My standard mags are the CProducts aluminum mags, but the company is in transition and the old stock is drying up. I've been apprehensive about the P-mags...some people swear by them, some swore them off. I like the fit and feel of the standard aluminum mags...my active shooter kit for work contains them. I just don't know about the P-mags, but I would weigh your opinion pretty heavily.

Well, I only own one of them and other than the 20 that's in the rifle there, it's the only mag I have that's not loaded right now. If that tells you anything! The big problem with them is that it's possible and not terribly difficult to overseat them. If you smack them on the bottom too hard (loading, doing remedial action, moving to prone, whatever), the mag can move up past the catch and cause problems by getting stuck in the well. I tested this to see if they'd addressed that problem with the mag I have, and they hadn't. Though structurally, P-Mags are WAY more rigid and rugged than aluminum GI mags, so I don't think plastic is a bad idea (in a semi-auto rifle anyway), it's just a design problem.

Magpul did recently announce a 3rd gen P-Mag that is supposed to take care of this problem. Troy and Lancer also make plastic mags that won't do this, if you're interested in trying some out.

I have a couple of the SS C-Products mags too and they're great, if a little heavier. Though not as heavy as the HK mags, which are fucking tanks. And cost a bajillion dollars.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:10 am

You're a lefty, right?

Seriously, do you prefer you're extras on the inside or outside of your gun?

Raygun wrote:

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:08 am

paladin2019 wrote:You're a lefty, right? Seriously, do you prefer you're extras on the inside or outside of your gun?

It would depend on the extras, I guess. Right now I've got a fuckoff hugemongous light attached and it's on the outside. It seems to me that it would present an unnecessary obstruction to my field of vision while I have the rifle pulled up to my face if it were on the inside. Though because this light is so huge and heavy, I might replace it with something smaller and lighter that would present less of an obstruction. In that case, it being on the inside would allow easier access to switch the light on and off. I'm not really sold on the pressure switch so far. It's handy, but it seems like a weak link.

Another consideration is with stuff interfering with the sling. It's not such a big deal with a single point (both guns have single point mounts at the rear of the receiver, though I doubt I'll ever employ it that way on the rifle; that bitch is HEAVY), but with a three point it can be a problem. I've got the front attachment point as far back as I could get it, which leaves some room to mount things on the inside if I want.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:21 am

Might I suggest an Insight M3? It should be <$200 and it has a rocker switch; one way instant, the other locks on.

As for slings, I'm a big fan of this and this. With an GG&G agency sling mount, this setup is standard for my work gun. With my 556, V93, and FAL, I don't even need the agency mount.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:18 am

paladin2019 wrote:Might I suggest an Insight M3? It should be <$200 and it has a rocker switch; one way instant, the other locks on.

I was looking at those, yeah. The light I have on there is rated at 200 lumens and I'd kinda like to get that kind of output or better. I recently saw this deal and I was like, "Hmm..." *brow arch, goatee stroke* Though the reflector on it is actually bigger than the light I have now, the whole package weighs about half. Their pistol-sized TLR-1 is pretty attractive too, though.

As for slings, I'm a big fan of this and this. With an GG&G agency sling mount, this setup is standard for my work gun. With my 556, V93, and FAL, I don't even need the agency mount.

That's not a bad idea. I got one of these not too long ago and it's working good so far. Though I don't think I'm carrying nearly as much gear around to interfere with a setup like that. Which reminds me, I don't remember if someone asked or not, but what kind/how much stuff are you usually carrying on your person when you're out doing what you do?

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:20 pm

I know I've asked this of one of you before (can't find the email or post now), Ray or Paladin, but have either of you used any gun paints? I want to dress my FAL since it is built using all standard Imbel parts, and just plain black...thinking of putting a camo pattern on it and the scope now that I have it mounted. But I don't want to use hardware store paint, unless that's a better option than some of the others. Google searching hasn't yielded me many results...I might be using the wrong search terms.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:01 pm

Ray: my concern with that light is that the "ehanced" size of the reflector will interfere with mounting if extends further than the rail grabber. If not, game on!

The Condor sling, you can do that with the 2 point adapter, simply attach the clip to the same sling point as the single point tail. This is actually my preferred setup, as having the tail at the rear of the receiver (vs the rear of the stock) and the clip at the muzzle end tends to make the gun hamg funny if it's not slung at the low ready.

For gear, I generally wear a modular bel with three rifle mags inverted on the back, two pistol mags and a Surefige G8 on my support side, my compass on strong side, sidearm in high tactical holster, LMF and multitool next to that and my IFAK filling the gap between multitool and rifle mags. My dump pounch is rooled up on the outside of the rifle mag shingle. My vest has 6 rifle mags, nightvision, 1 qt canteen, MBITR, 2nd IFAK, admin pouch, strap cutter and strobe. My CamelBak is kept separate. Of course, body armor and helmet really complete this look

Unca Joe: Most paints are fine. If you're not sending it to DSArms for duracoating, this is a good how to. Use the "crib notes" link to actually open the document.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:10 pm

Speaking of shotguns, I'm going to be in the market for one soon. I'm trying to go budget, just to get one in the house so we have a proper "home defence" weapon, rather than grinning sheepishly and gesturing at the two AKs and Mosin-Nagant. Right now, it looks like the Mossberg 500 might be the cheapest route.

How difficult/expensive is it to get an 18.5 barrel, if I can't find a decent 18.5" shotgun in my cost range?

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:02 pm

Bonefish wrote:Speaking of shotguns, I'm going to be in the market for one soon. I'm trying to go budget, just to get one in the house so we have a proper "home defence" weapon, rather than grinning sheepishly and gesturing at the two AKs and Mosin-Nagant. Right now, it looks like the Mossberg 500 might be the cheapest route.

After 16 years of training precision room clearance, I'd much prefer an Avtomat Kalashnikova to a shotgun for home defense

Bonefish wrote:How difficult/expensive is it to get an 18.5 barrel, if I can't find a decent 18.5" shotgun in my cost range?

How much is a hacksaw and a file? Add a tapemeasure, a marker, a vise and maybe a tap and die set (to add a bead to the new muzzle) if you really want to do it pretty. Or you can buy a new barrel from anywhere, including mail order. It's your gun, you can do what you want as long as you don't put it into another NFA category.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:26 pm

UncleJoseph wrote:I know I've asked this of one of you before (can't find the email or post now), Ray or Paladin, but have either of you used any gun paints? I want to dress my FAL since it is built using all standard Imbel parts, and just plain black...thinking of putting a camo pattern on it and the scope now that I have it mounted. But I don't want to use hardware store paint, unless that's a better option than some of the others. Google searching hasn't yielded me many results...I might be using the wrong search terms.

Duracoat is the stuff DSA uses. They've got all kinds of camo kits and colors to choose from, and they have a certified finisher not too far from you if you'd rather have someone else do it.

Another option is Cerakote, though it's relatively expensive and it's a bake-on type stuff, it's supposed to be the toughest. The standard Duracoat is not bake-on.

OH, I also forgot to mention... The reason you might be seeing the supply of C-Products mags drying up is because I think Midway either bought the company or made a pretty exclusive deal with the new owners to sell the mags under their own brand name, AR-Stoner. I have a couple of these mags too and other than the name on the base plate, they appear identical.

Bonefish wrote:Speaking of shotguns, I'm going to be in the market for one soon. I'm trying to go budget, just to get one in the house so we have a proper "home defence" weapon, rather than grinning sheepishly and gesturing at the two AKs and Mosin-Nagant. Right now, it looks like the Mossberg 500 might be the cheapest route.

The Maverick 88 Security would be cheaper than the 500. It's basically a 500 with a crossbolt safety that's made in Mexico, IIRC. They can use 500 barrels and some accessories. I'd go with the 500 because of the safety, but that's just me.

How difficult/expensive is it to get an 18.5 barrel, if I can't find a decent 18.5" shotgun in my cost range?

Pretty easy and not terribly expensive, so long as you're fine with the standard cylinder bore barrel. Some 500 models will also need a new magazine tube to fit the 18.5" barrel (which is why the barrel I want isn't available, I'm guessing). But if you were to buy, say, a 500 Field (stock #56420), mounting the 18.5" barrel should be as easy as opening the action and turning a screw.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:34 pm

paladin2019 wrote:Ray: my concern with that light is that the "ehanced" size of the reflector will interfere with mounting if extends further than the rail grabber. If not, game on!

Yeah, it would have to hang out over the end of the rail, which will work for me so long as I spend a few bucks and buy the illumination kit for the MOE handguard. But with the size of that reflector, I don't think it'd help a lot as far as visual obstruction goes when mounted on the inside of the rifle. The standard TLR-1s will, but I don't know if it'll put out enough light for me. Just have to look at them, I guess. There are a couple of places here that sell Stramlight stuff, so when they get the HP models in, I'll go check them out.

The Condor sling, you can do that with the 2 point adapter, simply attach the clip to the same sling point as the single point tail. This is actually my preferred setup, as having the tail at the rear of the receiver (vs the rear of the stock) and the clip at the muzzle end tends to make the gun hamg funny if it's not slung at the low ready.

That's a good idea, too. Hell, all I'd really have to do is put a QD swivel in the loop section and just hook it up when necessary. Hmm. I'm gonna try that out! Thanks for the idea.

For gear, I generally wear a modular bel with three rifle mags inverted on the back, two pistol mags and a Surefige G8 on my support side, my compass on strong side, sidearm in high tactical holster, LMF and multitool next to that and my IFAK filling the gap between multitool and rifle mags. My dump pounch is rooled up on the outside of the rifle mag shingle. My vest has 6 rifle mags, nightvision, 1 qt canteen, MBITR, 2nd IFAK, admin pouch, strap cutter and strobe. My CamelBak is kept separate. Of course, body armor and helmet really complete this look

That's a lot of stuff.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:16 pm

paladin2019 wrote:Unca Joe: Most paints are fine. If you're not sending it to DSArms for duracoating, this is a good how to. Use the "crib notes" link to actually open the document.

Thanks for the how-to...I'd kind of had a way to approach it in my head, but this article caught me on some things I definitely didn't know.

Raygun wrote:Duracoat is the stuff DSA uses. They've got all kinds of camo kits and colors to choose from, and they have a certified finisher not too far from you if you'd rather have someone else do it.

Another option is Cerakote, though it's relatively expensive and it's a bake-on type stuff, it's supposed to be the toughest. The standard Duracoat is not bake-on.

I think one of the Duracoat DIY kits will be what I go with...it was exactly what I was looking for. Now I just have to choose a pattern...ACU? I was thinking something a little more woodsy, but ACU is supposed to be about the best all-around camo.

Raygun wrote:OH, I also forgot to mention... The reason you might be seeing the supply of C-Products mags drying up is because I think Midway either bought the company or made a pretty exclusive deal with the new owners to sell the mags under their own brand name, AR-Stoner. I have a couple of these mags too and other than the name on the base plate, they appear identical.

Back when I had my company, I bought wholesale CProducts magazines right from the manufacturer. Last I knew, CProducts was bankrupt, and being sold to a new comapny. If Midway bought them, I hope they make them to the same standard as CProducts did...not just slap the CProducts name on an inferior magazine. The owner actually caught several retailers buying his floorplates, sticking them in old surplus mags that had been cleaned up or refinished, and marketing them as new CProducts mags. As cheap as mags were at that time (2004-2007), there was no reason to do that, unless the surplus mags they got were free. But for the money, you just couldn't beat CProducts. I got my last batch of retail magazines from Natchez, but they only had a limited supply. One thing I wish my CProducts mags had are the better followers. They have the green anti-tilts in them, but I'd prefer the orange or black followers that don't tilt at all. I know I can replace them, but at this point I'll just shoot them stock.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:27 pm

I just got my Maxpedition Active Shooter bag this week. A few of us at work decided that we were going to outfit ourselves with a school shooting incident response bag. Those of us in the detective bureau are really poorly equipped for any high-threat incident. Although the employer provides is with a protective vest, duty weapon, some ammo and a few other items, we're really under-equipped for something like a school shooting. We put our go-bags together for this mission only.

Load-out:

Four 30-round AR-15 magazines
Two Glock magazines
Flashlight
Gunshot Trauma Kit
Knife/Multi-tool
Flex cuffs
One or Two pair of standard handcuffs
Pad of Paper/Pen
Two chemlights

This bag is designed only to respond to short-duration, active violence situations. It is a shoulder satchel with an included leg/hip belt. When I go back to patrol, I plan to carry it with me for the same purpose, in addition to my normal duty bag. Again, if I have an active violence incident, I can throw this over my shoulder and head in with a good amount of ammo, the ability to secure several prisoners, and deal with a gunshot wound or two. Pity they don't buy us this stuff. But I do get to write it off on my taxes next year.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:54 pm

UncleJoseph wrote:Now I just have to choose a pattern...ACU? I was thinking something a little more woodsy, but ACU is supposed to be about the best all-around camo.

Where do you actually plan to use your rifle? That should answer your camo question.

RE: cops and AR15s. Why? What possible essential capability does an AR15 bring that an MP5 or CX4 doesn't have? How often are you using a long gun to take 200m+ shots (understood, rural patrol routes/sherriff vs police patrols withstanding)? Do you regularly need light armor piercing capabilities? Are the range and penetration improvements worth the collateral damage in target dense environments, like schools or downtown streets? I don't mean to go off on a rant*, but I do have problems with over militarizing police forces. I don't live in Europe for a reason.

And what the hell is a detective doing as a primary responder to a school shooting. Don't you have grunts (patrol and SWAT) for that? And if not (or your dept's philosophy is a cop is a cop is a cop), why aren't you kitted out for it? It's never happened so "it won't ever happen?" None of the dept has the right equipment?

*of course I do

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:46 pm

paladin2019 wrote:

I know...I know...

paladin2019 wrote:Where do you actually plan to use your rifle? That should answer your camo question.

The camo is for my FAL...I want a good all-around camo that won't require a new camo pattern every 5 minutes. Where I live, we have open farm land, urban and suburban environments and the rest is woodlands and swamp.

paladin2019 wrote:RE: cops and AR15s. Why? What possible essential capability does an AR15 bring that an MP5 or CX4 doesn't have? How often are you using a long gun to take 200m+ shots (understood, rural patrol routes/sherriff vs police patrols withstanding)? Do you regularly need light armor piercing capabilities? Are the range and penetration improvements worth the collateral damage in target dense environments, like schools or downtown streets? I don't mean to go off on a rant*, but I do have problems with over militarizing police forces. I don't live in Europe for a reason.

Easy, Nitro...

There are a number of reasons we carry AR-15s: The shotgun, which was the standard patrol long gun for almost a century, is, by it's nature, more likely to cause unwanted damage. It is much less effective at range. Law enforcement "long-distance" shots are usually under 100 meters. Other patrol rifle choices have been M1 Carbines, M14s, and good old hunting rifles. The AR-15 was chosen primarily because of ease of serviceability and the fact that it can penetrate armor when needed. The North Hollywood Bank Robbery in 1997 was the overwhelming reason that the push for something other than shotguns or low-power rifles was made toward the AR-15. In many recent situations, law enforcement has been out-gunned by the bad guys, or had the wrong tool for the job, with the traditional handgun calibers and a shotgun. The decision to go with AR-15s was backed by countless studies and statistics of real world law enforcement incidents.

MP5s are expensive, and, although semi-auto-only versions exist, ended up costing more money than AR-15s, and were typically full-auto. There are pros and cons either way. A lot of my jurisdiction is also rural. We often set up on perimeters of 200+ meters. But most agencies use AR-15s as CQB weapons. A /lot/ of agencies don't provide them, but let officers carry their own. For an officer-purchased patrol rifle, the AR-15 is one of the more economical choices.

paladin2019 wrote:And what the hell is a detective doing as a primary responder to a school shooting. Don't you have grunts (patrol and SWAT) for that? And if not (or your dept's philosophy is a cop is a cop is a cop), why aren't you kitted out for it? It's never happened so "it won't ever happen?" None of the dept has the right equipment?

No police department gives an officer every single piece of ideal equipment to do every job. Budget cuts have really hamstrung us, so lots of us just buy some of our own gear. Almost all detectives in police agencies meet the same requirements, and have the same tactical training, as patrol offers. My department is very small (only 39 officers, including the Chief). Us detectives can't just stand around while the "grunts" are doing all the work. In many situations, we're required to perform the same job patrol does, even though my main job description is different. Patrol does automatically respond, but it's possible that a detective could be there first. Plus, there are times when we might only have 3-4 patrol officers on-duty, and it's not like all of them are always freed up and available when something big goes down. We are all trained in 2, 3 and 4-man squad tactics...so, you could have a couple of uniforms and a couple of detectives breaching the school to put down the shooter. It would take an hour or more for our multi-agency SWAT team to mobilize...can't wait that long when kids are being executed. The SWAT team consists of normal guys whose regular jobs are other aspects of police work. They are on-call, but not on 24/7 standby. By the time SWAT arrived, the incident would be over, or we'd be in a barricaded gunman stand-off. Active shooter incidents at a mall or schools can't wait for SWAT, except in jurisdictions where SWAT is always on-duty (not very many) .

Keep in mind that our rules of engagement and SOPs are much, much different in perspective and practice than the military's. Our response procedures are based directly on research from the Columbine incident and others. You are against the "over-militarization" of police forces. So am I. But the world has changed some since the 1950's. There was a significant gap between the capabilities and responsibilities of law enforcement and the military. Many criminals took advantage of that gap. Declaring martial law and calling in the National Guard would have been the only way to deal with some of those situations if law enforcement had not stepped up to fill some of that gap.

We are issued weapons and a few magazines and many other tools of our trade. But in an active shooter incident, several of us opted to add to our kit. So we bought and outfitted our active shooter bags to be more prepared. There are over 10 schools, plus one large shopping mall, numerous separate shopping centers and department stores and other places where an active shooter incident is likely. Some of us feel that what the department issues us is not quite enough to handle these situations if/when the time comes.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:47 pm

UncleJoseph wrote:
paladin2019 wrote:Where do you actually plan to use your rifle? That should answer your camo question.
The camo is for my FAL...I want a good all-around camo that won't require a new camo pattern every 5 minutes. Where I live, we have open farm land, urban and suburban environments and the rest is woodlands and swamp.

I'd probably look at that Wilderness MirageFlage and use maybe a bit less of the tan than they have in the example, judging by some of the pics that 32 has posted of the backwoods around there.

Personally, I'm not enamored of the idea of camo on guns. I makes them look cool, but I don't think it's really necessary, particularly in an urban environment. I might go with a flat color on the rifle, probably tan/FDE as the furniture is already that color, but I don't think I'm going to go to the trouble of doing any kind of camo on anything. Course... That AmStripe pattern in shades of tan/FDE would probably work well here.

paladin2019 wrote:RE: cops and AR15s. Why? What possible essential capability does an AR15 bring that an MP5 or CX4 doesn't have? How often are you using a long gun to take 200m+ shots (understood, rural patrol routes/sherriff vs police patrols withstanding)? Do you regularly need light armor piercing capabilities? Are the range and penetration improvements worth the collateral damage in target dense environments, like schools or downtown streets? I don't mean to go off on a rant*, but I do have problems with over militarizing police forces. I don't live in Europe for a reason.
Easy, Nitro...

There are a number of reasons we carry AR-15s: The shotgun, which was the standard patrol long gun for almost a century, is, by it's nature, more likely to cause unwanted damage. It is much less effective at range. Law enforcement "long-distance" shots are usually under 100 meters. Other patrol rifle choices have been M1 Carbines, M14s, and good old hunting rifles. The AR-15 was chosen primarily because of ease of serviceability and the fact that it can penetrate armor when needed. The North Hollywood Bank Robbery in 1997 was the overwhelming reason that the push for something other than shotguns or low-power rifles was made toward the AR-15. In many recent situations, law enforcement has been out-gunned by the bad guys, or had the wrong tool for the job, with the traditional handgun calibers and a shotgun. The decision to go with AR-15s was backed by countless studies and statistics of real world law enforcement incidents.

Pretty much what I would have assumed. ARs are everywhere and cheap, and Level IIIA body armor won't stop 5.56mm. Three's been precident set for it. Seems like a reasonable choice to me. It is a bit disconcerting to see them in every patrol car, but I can also understand why they have them.

On the other end of that, I have issues with our military being so militarized! Cops having rifles is no big thing compared to that. The big problem I would have is if cops were aloud to have automatic rifles while the general law-abiding public could not. Like California. Fuck that. If I can't have it, neither should police.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:08 pm

Raygun wrote:Personally, I'm not enamored of the idea of camo on guns. I makes them look cool, but I don't think it's really necessary, particularly in an urban environment. I might go with a flat color on the rifle, probably tan/FDE as the furniture is already that color, but I don't think I'm going to go to the trouble of doing any kind of camo on anything. Course... That AmStripe pattern in shades of tan/FDE would probably work well here.

I'm not necessarily a huge advocate of camo patterns on guns either. My FAL was built from a standard Imbel kit, and has a nice shiny black set of furniture on it...gotta do something with it. Figured if I'm going to paint it anyway, might as well take the time to optimize it.

Raygun wrote:It is a bit disconcerting to see them in every patrol car, but I can also understand why they have them.

It's all about having the right tool for the job, when you need it. If I had to drive back to the station (up to 12 miles away...more for county deputies) to get my rifle when the need arose, I wouldn't bother getting it...I'd make do with whatever I had in the car. Even running lights-and-siren takes time to get through traffic and/or long distances. Doesn't make sense for us to have them at all if they're going to be locked up at the station.

Raygun wrote:...The big problem I would have is if cops were aloud to have automatic rifles while the general law-abiding public could not. Like California. Fuck that. If I can't have it, neither should police.

While I could care less what law abiding citizens carry, it doesn't make sense to limit police carry to far less capability than the bad guys have. There are agencies out there that are worried a lot about public image vs. officer safety. When you limit officers (and law abiding citizens alike), then you end up with criminals being the only ones who have access to the heavy-duty hardware, because they don't care if the law says they can't have a fully automatic rifle.