My new toy.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:09 pm

So it's like a quick loader, but instead of taking the loader off the back of the rounds and setting it aside, the whole insert stays in the cylinder? I assume the gun has to be built to take this, or modified to? Or do you just basically remove the cylinder from the post and start slapping these in?

Neat, anyway. No idea why it took so long to develop this.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:30 pm

3278 wrote:So it's like a quick loader, but instead of taking the loader off the back of the rounds and setting it aside, the whole insert stays in the cylinder? I assume the gun has to be built to take this, or modified to? Or do you just basically remove the cylinder from the post and start slapping these in?

Neat, anyway. No idea why it took so long to develop this.

Ray can expand on all of this. These types of clips have been around for quite a while. Taurus has come up with their own version of it, but the concept has been around for decades. They are generally associated with rimless cartridges (although there are some guns that fire rimmed cartridges and use them), like those that fire from semi-auto and automatic firearms, instead of the rimmed cartridges normally associated with revolvers. The design of the gun is what used to dictate rimmed vs. rimless cartridges (generally), until the so-called "Moon" and "half-moon" clips came out. The revolver has to have a cylinder that is designed to accept the moon clip.

The clips stay in the cylinder while the gun is loaded, and pull the all rounds or expended shells out upon ejection. No disassembly of the gun is required...You load and unload very similarly to a speed loader. Speed loaders did the same thing for rimmed cartridges, except that you had to keep the speed loader in a pouch/pocket once you loaded the gun...they are too expensive to discard. Carrying a loaded speed loader is no different than carrying a spare magazine. And you wouldn't discard an empty magazine either.

Bonefish · Post by **Bonefish** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:51 pm

wasn't there webley revolver in WW2 that used those clips to fire .45 ACP?

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:33 pm

I think so, yeah. Though most of those surplus Webleys have been converted to .45 ACP because the ammo is cheaper and far more available, so I'm not really sure if that's something that was started during WWII for logistical reasons or something that has occurred since. The Colt 1917 was .45 ACP, clip loaded, and was used during WWI.

The idea was first patented in 1909, but because it requires modification to a conventional cylinder and/or for the gun to be chambered for an automatic cartridge, it's popularity has been limited. There's certainly plenty of benefit to it, though. As Jerry Miculek has demonstrated.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:06 pm

Raygun wrote:Jerry Miculek has demonstrated.

If you like that guy, you'll love Bob Munden

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:24 pm

Yeah, he's fast with an SAA. His shop is in Butte.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:19 am

That's an interesting clip design for revolvers. I wonder why I haven't seen it before...and why it isn't in Shadowrun?

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:51 pm

3278 wrote:That's an interesting clip design for revolvers. I wonder why I haven't seen it before...and why it isn't in Shadowrun?

I always just assumed this was how revolvers in SR were reloaded.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:24 pm

I think I'm probably stuck on an SR1 table somewhere, that gave reloading for revolvers, and then revolvers with quick-loaders; this would work just like the quick loader in terms of reloading mechanics, although I think it'd be even faster in real life!

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:18 pm

Yeah, definitely. The clip goes in the action with your ammo and can be discarded when ejected. The only real issue is dealing with what happens if you don't have any clips. You can still load rounds individually, but ejecting cases after use can be problematic.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:43 pm

Serious Paul wrote:
3278 wrote:That's an interesting clip design for revolvers. I wonder why I haven't seen it before...and why it isn't in Shadowrun?
I always just assumed this was how revolvers in SR were reloaded.

Hey, now that I think about it, I think that was a rules change somewhere along the line: they stopped having a table for revolver / revolver with quick load / automatic, and just said, "Look, everyone has quick loaders of some kind."

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:36 am

I don't know of a single modern revolver that won't eject all rounds at once.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:49 am

paladin2019 wrote:I don't know of a single modern revolver that won't eject all rounds at once.

I'm not nearly the gun head you guys seem to be, I mean I know my way around enough to not shoot myself in the foot-but wouldn't you just dump them on the ground? Or if you're a Fed looking to get shot, in your pocket.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:58 am

paladin2019 wrote:I don't know of a single modern revolver that won't eject all rounds at once.

I think Ray was referring to folks' tendency to not depress the ejection pin on the cylinder fully when trying to eject the casings, thereby ending up with a few still sticking out of the cylinder face. The moon clips help all the brass come out at once in a more consistent and reliable manner. Without moon clips, you can actually get the rim of the casing stuck under the ejector.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:06 am

UncleJoseph wrote:
paladin2019 wrote:I don't know of a single modern revolver that won't eject all rounds at once.
I think Ray was referring to folks' tendency to not depress the ejection pin on the cylinder fully when trying to eject the casings, thereby ending up with a few still sticking out of the cylinder face. The moon clips help all the brass come out at once in a more consistent and reliable manner. Without moon clips, you can actually get the rim of the casing stuck under the ejector.

Ahhh, so he's talking about targets. Got it

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:52 am

UncleJoseph wrote:
paladin2019 wrote:I don't know of a single modern revolver that won't eject all rounds at once.
I think Ray was referring to folks' tendency to not depress the ejection pin on the cylinder fully when trying to eject the casings, thereby ending up with a few still sticking out of the cylinder face. The moon clips help all the brass come out at once in a more consistent and reliable manner. Without moon clips, you can actually get the rim of the casing stuck under the ejector.

I was referring specifically to clip-loaded revolvers. While most will allow the loading of individual rounds without a clip present (assuming the chamber is cut to headspace on the case mouth, as chambers for rimless cartridges generally are), the extractor will have nothing to interface with if no clip is present. You could still tip and shake, but should the ammo be high pressure or slightly out-of-spec (not terribly uncommon) = case stuck in chamber = problems ejecting cases. Loading these kind of revolvers without clips should be a last resort.

I was just trying to give an idea on how to dick with someone who wants a super-fast-loading revolver in-game. Shadowrun tends to end up in Lastresortsville a lot. At least it did when I was playing it.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:09 pm

Serious Paul wrote:
paladin2019 wrote:I don't know of a single modern revolver that won't eject all rounds at once.
I'm not nearly the gun head you guys seem to be, I mean I know my way around enough to not shoot myself in the foot-but wouldn't you just dump them on the ground? Or if you're a Fed looking to get shot, in your pocket.

The cartridge expands enough upon firing to stick in the cylinder, even if you have the cylinder upside down.

S&W had a line of Revolvers that started back in the early 1900 that could fire either .45 Rim or .45ACP with their Moon Clips. Both are basically .45acp rounds, the difference being the way the cartridge is shaped to either include a rim or not.

S&W Governor is a 6 round revolver that is made from the factory for .410 Shotgun, .45 Rim, .45ACP(with moon clip) and .45 Long Colt. Now, for those of you who have seen the Taurus Judge, the initial line had enough cylinder clearance you could get away with using the moon clip from their .45acp Tracker model in the Judge for .45acp loads. However, subsequent design changes by Taurus do not leave enough clearance between the cylinder and the frame to use moon clip loaded .45acp. The Judge was never intended from Taurus to accept moon clip loaded .45acp.

Are you just using them for dry firing, or in combinations with other training methods (e.g. malfunction drills)?

I use one as the top round in the magazine and the chambered round for holster drills and for malfunction drills. This way I am working with a full weight magazine. There is also a laser bore sight meant for holster drills that will feed like a normal round, when you pull the trigger, the laser lights letting you see where you hit on the target. Last time at the range, the gentleman that came in to the lane next to me after the guy shooting the .460S&W (which should be banned from an indoor range btw, I felt the pressure wave before I could hear the report.) had 3 of them. From holster, the first was chamber loaded with the other two being the top round of the mag. He would pull and "fire" drop the magazine and pull the slide, pop in a fresh mag, drop the slide, "fire" and repeat.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:21 am

Test Drive:
Kahr PM9 7 round Magazine with extension in 9mm

Small...tiny even. I can trigger and two finger the grip (3 fingers total) pinky slips under the grip and makes it difficult for a two handed grip.

Easily controllable for such a small frame. Yes, I know, it's 9mm and not .45, but I have previously shot other small 9's that suffered badly from muzzle flip.

I was easily able to double tap in a 3 inch circle two handed (off hand holding my wrist), 4 inch circle right handed and 6 inch circle left handed.

Slide was "difficult". Both in pulling the slide, my fingers kept loosing grip on the serrations, as well as the recoil spring being very stiff. Stiff enough that the thin slide release was difficult to free up.

No hiccups, even for a rental the range has had for awhile. Allegedly a used firearm that came back in such good shape, they simply added it to the range rentals.

Would I buy one for me? Nope, grip is to small, even with the extension the magazine has on it for my hands. (I wear X-large - 2XL gloves depending on maker) Would I recommend it for someone with smaller hands? Definitely. Just with a word of warning, there is no safety.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:09 pm

Yeah. DAOs don't tend to have external safeties. One less thing to have to worry about.

I like Kahr's first gun, the K9, better than any of the rest they make. It's bigger and heavier than the PM9, but that just makes it easier to control at the cost of about a half inch of length on both the slide and grip. If I were going to pack a 9mm, it'd likely be that one.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:08 am

Raygun wrote:I like Kahr's first gun, the K9, better than any of the rest they make. It's bigger and heavier than the PM9, but that just makes it easier to control at the cost of about a half inch of length on both the slide and grip. If I were going to pack a 9mm, it'd likely be that one.

I totally agree. The K9/K40 was one of the best overall designs. While I like my wife's PM9, and can shoot it comfortably, the size of the K9 made it more balanced. I've never been a huge fan of polymer frames, so I don't even think I'd go with a P9. I'll gladly carry a little extra weight to get that "proper feel" of a firearm.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:13 am

Can't bring myself to even consider buying anything from the Kahr family. Moonies and all. It's a damn shame, too; they own Auto-Ordnance.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:17 am

paladin2019 wrote:Can't bring myself to even consider buying anything from the Kahr family. Moonies and all. It's a damn shame, too; they own Auto-Ordnance.

Is it only because of the whole Moonie connection?

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:03 am

Pick up my new toy Thursday,
Savage Arms Axis .308 with scope. The scope will work until I have the funds for something better.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:00 am

paladin2019 wrote:Can't bring myself to even consider buying anything from the Kahr family. Moonies and all. It's a damn shame, too; they own Auto-Ordnance.

If I didn't buy guns because of religious nutters in the industry, I'd probably never get to buy a gun.

sinsual wrote:Pick up my new toy Thursday,
Savage Arms Axis .308 with scope. The scope will work until I have the funds for something better.

Let me know how it works out for you.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:29 pm

Raygun wrote:
paladin2019 wrote:Can't bring myself to even consider buying anything from the Kahr family. Moonies and all. It's a damn shame, too; they own Auto-Ordnance.
If I didn't buy guns because of religious nutters in the industry, I'd probably never get to buy a gun.

Religious nutters are one thing. I can deal with that. (Looking at you Bindon.) Taking advantage of them is another. And Justin Moon hasn't done enough to distance himself from his father, IMO.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:59 am

Top Target: 2 rounds free standing 200yards

Bottom Target: Bench top 200 yards

Not bad for 20 years out of practice.

Most of the zeroing of the scope was done with mil surplus 150gr FMJ at 100 yards of course.

The 200 yard shots were with Federal 150gr Power Lok

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:12 am

My FAL came in Thursday. I might have pics soon. First things first, I need go to the range and adjust the gas regulator.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:41 pm

sin: How's the trigger on that Axis? I remember the old-style Savage triggers being pretty horrid out of the box, which they took care of with the AccuTrigger, but the Axis doesn't have it. Savage has really stepped up their game in the last ten years, so maybe the old style trigger is better now.

paladin2019 wrote:My FAL came in Thursday. I might have pics soon. First things first, I need go to the range and adjust the gas regulator.

What'd you get?

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:02 am

DS Arms FAL Para, with quad rail handguards, extended rail on the top cover (which does not properly align the slot pattern with the handguards to be a rue continuous top rail) and a dark earth paint job (more tan than brown, but whatever.) I was dumb and didn't order extra mags. I've added

I haven't had an opportunity where time and ammo converged to set the gas, shoot in the barrel and zero the sights.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:21 pm

paladin2019 wrote:DS Arms FAL Para, with quad rail handguards, extended rail on the top cover (which does not properly align the slot pattern with the handguards to be a rue continuous top rail) and a dark earth paint job (more tan than brown, but whatever.) I was dumb and didn't order extra mags.

Very nice! IMO, DS Arms is the definitive FAL clone builder. I have a custom built FAL on a Century Arms blank with Imbel kit...shoots great, but the fit and finish is not a refined as a DS Arms model.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:47 pm

paladin2019 wrote:DS Arms FAL Para, with quad rail handguards, extended rail on the top cover (which does not properly align the slot pattern with the handguards to be a rue continuous top rail) and a dark earth paint job (more tan than brown, but whatever.) I was dumb and didn't order extra mags.

Sweet. If I were going to get a FAL, that's pretty much exactly what I'd get. The FAL really is one of the better automatic rifle designs ever, and what DSA has added to it brings the platform up to date pretty well, I think.

Far as mags go, looks like the surplus supply got bought up, so there's no more $3 Steyr mags out there. But after a little looking around, new ones are out there now, I guess coming from some Asian country that licensed the FAL. Though they're running $15-20 a piece now. DSA seems to make everything but the standard 20-rounders, and I know Thermold and Rock River make a similar plastic mag. Wondering why Magpul hasn't started cranking one out.

I haven't had an opportunity where time and ammo converged to set the gas, shoot in the barrel and zero the sights.

Well, when you do, get some pictures and let us know how it goes.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:54 am

Raygun wrote:
paladin2019 wrote:I haven't had an opportunity where time and ammo converged to set the gas, shoot in the barrel and zero the sights.
Well, when you do, get some pictures and let us know how it goes.

When it came in, I put twenty through it and between packing grease and too much gas, it wouldn't go more than a three or four rounds without jamming the bolt past the bolt catch. It's since been cleaned and lubed, gas set to minimum and ready to shoot. But I'm in military housing, neighbors are a bit too close to just walk out the back door and test fire

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:09 am

Raygun wrote:sin: How's the trigger on that Axis? I remember the old-style Savage triggers being pretty horrid out of the box, which they took care of with the AccuTrigger, but the Axis doesn't have it. Savage has really stepped up their game in the last ten years, so maybe the old style trigger is better now.

I will be honest Ray, it was heavy, but it broke consistently at the same point every time. It is a $400 rifle with scope. I got exactly what I expected out of it knowing that for awhile, the rifle will be better than I am.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:48 pm

Oh, it's a great deal for a rifle, definitely. The trigger should be adjustable for weight, with a set screw at the rear of the trigger. You have to take the action out of the stock though, and all that addresses is the weight of pull. If it's real creepy, then the trigger either needs to be worked on or replaced. Rifle Basix makes an excellent, fully adjustable aftermarket trigger, from all reports I've heard. It's not terribly expensive either.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:36 am

Got to shot some at lunch this week. Gas adjusted and no problems. Looking forward to Veteran's Day or Thanksgiving to really work out with this thing.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:57 pm

Raygun wrote:Oh, it's a great deal for a rifle, definitely. The trigger should be adjustable for weight, with a set screw at the rear of the trigger. You have to take the action out of the stock though, and all that addresses is the weight of pull. If it's real creepy, then the trigger either needs to be worked on or replaced. Rifle Basix makes an excellent, fully adjustable aftermarket trigger, from all reports I've heard. It's not terribly expensive either.

The Axis is not adjustable on the trigger. I actually like how hard it is because of the shake I get from the damage to my arm. I was worried about Creep, since that seemed to be a major complaint, but I can keep tension on the trigger as long as I want, right up to that point before break, and it stays solid.

This is my son out with me at the range yesterday morning.

After forgetting to bring my tool kit, and letting the stock and scope come loose...*head desk* I was able to get it back to these two groups. That is two groups over lapping, with 2 fliers. We ran out of time, so I didn't get to dial it in more.

Now this I am proud of!

This is my wife's first time ever firing a gun of any type. This is made up of 6 rounds from a 22Lr revolver, 5 rounds through the .22LR conversion on the Witness, and 1 round .45ACP out of the Witness. All 12 rounds on a 12 inch target at 5 yards, or the average length on one of the rooms in the house.

I found the local Handgun Silhouette club, and they have a match coming up next month I am going to attend. I can run the Witness in Production Handgun. Just have to get used to the lay down shooting form again, and adapt to how my right arm bends.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:01 pm

sinsual wrote:The Axis is not adjustable on the trigger.

Hmm. Looks like you're right. New policy since introducing the AccuTrigger, I suppose. The Axis appears to have the same trigger as the old 10/110 rifles, so you should be able to install that adjustable Rifle Basix trigger if you want. Otherwise you could cut a couple of coils off of the trigger spring, but that'll only do so much.

I actually like how hard it is because of the shake I get from the damage to my arm.

If it's breaking at 6-7 lbs as people seem to be reporting, you'll do nothing but benefit from a lighter pull (so long as you don't go overboard with it). I'm glad to hear it's not been super-frustrating for you, but the lighter, faster and more surprising the break is, the more it will result in tighter, more consistent groups. Period. For a hunting rifle I wouldn't go less than about 3 lbs, but the difference between that and 6 lbs is pretty enormous.

I was worried about Creep, since that seemed to be a major complaint, but I can keep tension on the trigger as long as I want, right up to that point before break, and it stays solid.

That's a plus.

I found the local Handgun Silhouette club, and they have a match coming up next month I am going to attend. I can run the Witness in Production Handgun. Just have to get used to the lay down shooting form again, and adapt to how my right arm bends.

I've been wanting to get into 3-gun (handgun, shotgun, rifle) or practical long-range rifle here for a while, but with money being so tight lately, that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:10 am

My co-worker has a Tikka with a 3lb pull, when lining up a shot, the tremble from my fingers can trip the trigger, which causes bigger groups than I am getting from the Axis. Until I can work out more of the finger tremors, I will stick with the heavier trigger. I think about the time I get to that point, I will either be looking for a new rifle all around, or a new trigger assembly.

I am however, thinking of pulling the trigger assembly and giving the parts a good polish.

Today, I got to take a XDm 9mm for a test drive. I have it for the weekend, and swapped the rear backstrap for the thickest one. The same co-worker as above has long fingers, but a short palm, and had the smallest backstrap in place. The wife is going to comparison shoot between the Witness and the XDm this weekend. If she likes it, we buy the XDm. The gun is less than a year old, and has only had 5 magazines shot through it. He decided to buy a Walther PPQ.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 pm

sinsual wrote:My co-worker has a Tikka with a 3lb pull, when lining up a shot, the tremble from my fingers can trip the trigger, which causes bigger groups than I am getting from the Axis. Until I can work out more of the finger tremors, I will stick with the heavier trigger. I think about the time I get to that point, I will either be looking for a new rifle all around, or a new trigger assembly.

Ah. Jesus, dude. What happened to your arm that a tremor trips a 3 lb trigger?

I am however, thinking of pulling the trigger assembly and giving the parts a good polish.

Rarely hurts.

Today, I got to take a XDm 9mm for a test drive. I have it for the weekend, and swapped the rear backstrap for the thickest one. The same co-worker as above has long fingers, but a short palm, and had the smallest backstrap in place. The wife is going to comparison shoot between the Witness and the XDm this weekend. If she likes it, we buy the XDm. The gun is less than a year old, and has only had 5 magazines shot through it. He decided to buy a Walther PPQ.

I've never been real fond of full-sized DAOs myself, though I would really like to try the PPQ. The P99 (which the PPQ is descended from) is probably the most ergonomically correct automatic handgun I've ever held. I remember being very impressed at how well it conformed to my hand and pointed naturally. It was very clear to me that they put a lot of thought into that (which is why everyone has copied their removable backstrap idea and all that). The trigger wasn't bad either (no worthless trigger-on-the-trigger crap like the Glock and XD, which is an unfortunate addition to the PPQ, IMO). The only thing the P99 lacked was an ambidextrous slide release, and the PPQ has that. I can understand why your guy would go that route.

Far as the XD goes, its trigger is also much better than the Glock, IIRC, but other than that and the seemingly superfluous safeties on it (grip and trigger), I don't remember much about shooting it. They're very popular, though. Several people I know have one.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:33 pm

I have an XD45 and I'm not overly fond of it. I have no problems with a 1911, so I guess it's no the SAO part. It points like a 1911, which a Glock doesn't for me. I think I'm looking to thumb the safety when I draw and holster and not having that bugs me. I really feel like I should like the gun much more than I do. Of course, my USP probably just spoiled me.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:32 am

Yeah. The P30 and FNX are another couple I'd like to get my hands on. Being the DA/SA equivalents there.

I had a USP 40 for about six months... jeez, 12 years ago now. It shot very high and right (like 4" high and 4" right at 12 yards, IIRC... terrible) out of the box with the 180 grain loads I preferred, so I sent it back to HK for adjustment (with the targets and box tops from the loads I was using). They sent it back (very timely!) and it still shot high and right. So I emailed the tech about it and his response was basically to "use 135 grain loads." It was a well-built gun and never failed to fire, but not the kind of experience one expects from a $720 gun. So I sold that piece at the nearest opportunity.

That said, I'd still like to try a P30. It's like the piece Batman would carry if Batman packed.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:50 am

I've only had good experiences with the USP models, but haven't kept up on all the new stuff for a while. The P30 looks fantastic. I also keep going back to the XD, but I'm not very fond of their grip safety...it just feels like I wouldn't get a positive release like I do with my 1911s. I know that as long as I had proper grip, the safety would release just fine. It's probably all in my head, and I should just buy one...it's a debate that's been raging in my mind for a bit. Still, I have to figure out what my wife and I are going to do about her PM9...if I can't get her to shoot it properly, then that'll become my concealed gun. I'm leaning heavily toward a wheel gun for her, because she won't have any cycling problems. But revolvers put the sting back in recoil when you're using the smaller, lighter framed models. So I don't know what she'll be comfortable with. I'm going to have her shoot my Colt SF-VI to see if a small .38 will be an option for her. My mother couldn't handle the sting of the recoil on the SF-VI, which is why the gun is now mine.

A friend of mine's dad just bought an FNP 45 Tactical...holy crap what an awesome piece. Like butter!

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:28 pm

I don't even notice the grip safety on the XDm it fits my hand so well. I have had an issue on a couple of 1911's though, but I think that has more to do with condition of the gun than the concept of the safety. I just found when I grip a 1911, its like I go out of my way to get the safety under the pad of my thumb, but on the XDm I don't even think about it, it just fits naturally right there.

The Witness is SA/DA, which is real nice when one of the rimfire rounds doesn't fire on the first strike.

Ray...total of 5 surgeries, 3 of which were to relocate the Ulna Nerve. Since then I get nerve induced tremors that are a "feedback loop" as the EMG tech put it. The feed back loops were so severe before the last surgery, they would cause my pinky and third finger to dislocate themselves in opposite directions, just from muscle contractions alone. Drives my Physical and Massage Therapists nuts because I can "tell" the muscles to relax, and they will start to, then one of them will touch or move that arm, and before I even know in my head they touched me, the muscles in my arm clamp down in reaction. I spend A LOT of time with my finger on the trigger guard and not the trigger

It is also why for me it is such an accomplishment to get the shooting groups I do since it is so difficult to stay perfectly steady. The way I see it, it is going to take me working at it, and learning how better to adapt to the condition then to sit and cry about it. If that means a heavier trigger right now for rifle shooting, fine by me.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:18 pm

UncleJoseph wrote:I've only had good experiences with the USP models, but haven't kept up on all the new stuff for a while. The P30 looks fantastic.

Doesn't it, though? That Phoenix Jones guy needs to stop fucking around and get one too, I think! The only thing I don't like about it is that, unlike the USP, the decocker is separate from the safety lever, as a button on the back of the slide. Not a huge deal, but one thing I really liked about the USP (and I like about the FNX/FNP45) was that the safety was pretty much identical in position and functionality to the 1911, but the decocker was integrated, dropping the hammer when the safety was pressed down.

I also keep going back to the XD, but I'm not very fond of their grip safety...it just feels like I wouldn't get a positive release like I do with my 1911s. I know that as long as I had proper grip, the safety would release just fine. It's probably all in my head, and I should just buy one...it's a debate that's been raging in my mind for a bit.

Yeah... To be fair, I think I project a lot of my dislike for grip safeties from experiences with the 1911. The grip safety mechanism on the XD is much more useful than it is on the 1911 (without the Schwartz safety, like mine, anyway) and seemed to work perfectly fine in my limited experience with the gun. But that trigger safety can still go fuck itself.

Still, I have to figure out what my wife and I are going to do about her PM9...if I can't get her to shoot it properly, then that'll become my concealed gun. I'm leaning heavily toward a wheel gun for her, because she won't have any cycling problems. But revolvers put the sting back in recoil when you're using the smaller, lighter framed models. So I don't know what she'll be comfortable with. I'm going to have her shoot my Colt SF-VI to see if a small .38 will be an option for her. My mother couldn't handle the sting of the recoil on the SF-VI, which is why the gun is now mine.

That's pretty much all you can do. One step at a time.

A friend of mine's dad just bought an FNP 45 Tactical...holy crap what an awesome piece. Like butter!

Yeah. I bet the red dot speeds things up a bit, too.

sinsual wrote:Ray...total of 5 surgeries, 3 of which were to relocate the Ulna Nerve. Since then I get nerve induced tremors that are a "feedback loop" as the EMG tech put it. The feed back loops were so severe before the last surgery, they would cause my pinky and third finger to dislocate themselves in opposite directions, just from muscle contractions alone. Drives my Physical and Massage Therapists nuts because I can "tell" the muscles to relax, and they will start to, then one of them will touch or move that arm, and before I even know in my head they touched me, the muscles in my arm clamp down in reaction. I spend A LOT of time with my finger on the trigger guard and not the trigger It is also why for me it is such an accomplishment to get the shooting groups I do since it is so difficult to stay perfectly steady. The way I see it, it is going to take me working at it, and learning how better to adapt to the condition then to sit and cry about it. If that means a heavier trigger right now for rifle shooting, fine by me.

Fine by me too, and I'm glad you're working at it! Wow, dude. Thanks for taking the time to explain. And ouch.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:36 am

sinsual wrote:<Wa wa wa, I hurt my widdle arm>

Stop being a pussy and learn to shoot off-hand.

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:15 pm

paladin2019 wrote:
sinsual wrote:<Wa wa wa, I hurt my widdle arm>
Stop being a pussy and learn to shoot off-hand.

Will you come be my personal instructor

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:27 pm

You want him to teach you how to shoot? He's in the Army! The only thing he's likely to hit is his own butthole and he'd need a Marine's dick even for that!

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:25 pm

I figured he had the most practice shooting his loads left handed...

I just need more practice firing the .45 left handed is all, not someone to teach me

I have found the weak, very weak link of my Axis package.

The scope.

I wish I had just purchased a blank Axis and bought a scope separate. After 160 rounds, resetting of the scope base after 40 rounds, I have to keep resetting the scope. One of the range masters noticed me back again last night. He was wondering why I bought a large target (36x36) and placed a 12x12 sighting target in the middle. I let him look through the spotting scope ($1 rental at the range) The first 4 rounds were hitting very wide (about a foot and a half) right in a crosswind to the left. He sheepishly asked if he could take a shot or two, which I gladly let him. Even he was still hitting wide right. At the break he went to his truck and got out a bore sighter. We set it up, and sure enough the scope was now sighted wide right. Dialed it in. Put 20 rounds through it (I was at the range for 3 hours). We put the bore sighter back in and ... The reticle had moved right and up. Not a lot at 25 yards (the center point for the bore sighter) about 4 clicks up and 6 clicks right. Put another 20 rounds through, (of which I was disappointed, it was Winchester White Box in 7.62. 4 no fires in 40 rounds) and before the range closed, we stuck the bore sighter in once again. This time the scope was 10 clicks high and 15 clicks right. If I hadn't been aware of the shift in the scope sighting, I would have wondered what I was doing wrong as the rounds started drifting out of the initial 4 shot group.

I sent an email to Savage to see what they want to do. If they want me to ship the whole package back, I may just blow it off since I don't want to wait another 8-12 weeks for turn around. If they just want me to send the scope back, that I will do. Otherwise, I may just spend the money on a Nikon ProStaff ($169) with the ranged reticle. With the iPhone app, I can plug in the ammo and it will give me the ballistics and sighting on the scope.

Raygun · Post by **Raygun** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:11 pm

Yeah, those package scopes are rarely any good. They're usually low-end scopes like Simmons or BSA or Bushnell's cheaper deals. They might get you through a season, but that's about it.

From what I have seen, the Nikon ProStaff scopes are decent. But I highly, highly, highly recommend the Burris Fullfield II. It's the best bang for the buck I've found. Their 3-9x40mm with the ranging reticle runs around $180 and is worth the extra $10-20 compared to the ProStaff, IMO. Give them a look. I have the 4.5-14x42mm AO on mine and I can't imagine being any happier without spending over a grand on glass.

If you're going to go with a new scope, you also might want to consider some new rings and bases as those can also be part of the problem. For a hunting rifle, I recommend Leupold's PRW sets (or QRW if your rifle has iron sights).

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:34 pm

Thanks for the scope suggestions. I liked the Nikon because of familiarity with their glass and optics.

The combo came with a low end Bushnell btw.