When did rock get so white?

[Nicephorus]

Is it my imagination or is mainstream rock/pop whiter than ever? Keep in mind that I'm talking about trends, not the rare exception. This is also entirely in regard to the U.S. as I'm too ignorant of other music markets so say anything of value.

I was a kid in the 70s and 80s. But it seemed like 60s and 70s music had black musicians penetrating the white market. Top 40 charts had many black musicians. Detroit sounds and funk were common on white stations. In the 80s, Michael Jackson and others were heard by more whites than blacks.

In the 21st century, it seems like segregation has largely returned. You have metal which is mainly for white rednecks. Alternitive, emo, and industrial are mainly for nerdy middle class whites. Country for tea party whites. Top 40 for the mainstream whites. Blacks are apparently expected to listen to rap or hip hop. Hispanics can either tap into black sounds, listen to Spanish language stuff, or occasionally pretend they're white.

There are the occasional white rappers but they try too hard to adopt black culture as if the music style can't be performed unless you're wearing the right clothes. If you're a country star, you'd better hug the flag, vote Republican, wear cowboy boots and jeans or you will be ostracized.

Hollywood is just as bad. They like to think they're liberal but they mainly follow trends and have always been racist. As recently as the 60s, they weren't sure if Asians should be allowed to play Asian roles. Most shows have token minorities in stereotype roles to show how liberal they are. Then there are entirely black shows intended solely for black audiences.

I don't think Hollywood has ever really been progressive outside of independent movies which have ebbed and flowed. But has radio/mainstream music taken a step back? I have little exposure to Top 40 music lately so maybe it's just me.

[Salvation122]

You should really look up Misha Mansoor, aka Bulb.

No radio play, admittedly, but that man is Metal As Hell.

Edit: For example...

[AtemHutlrt]

It seems to me that mainstream-white-America is listening to "black" music as much now as they ever have, if not more. The biggest acts, your Lady Gagas and what have you, might be predominantly white [though I'm really not tuned-in enough to speak authoritatively], but that seems to me a matter of coincidence rather than design, and artists like Lil Wayne are at least as popular in white-America as The Supremes were forty years ago. Certainly some genres appeal to particular demographics more than others, though, in many instances, say, heavy metal, for example, there might be more crossover appeal than you'd expect, but I don't believe this is a modern trend, or even more pronounced now than at any other time.

Plus, the two best bands in the world aren't fronted by white guys.

[3278]

Is it my imagination or is mainstream rock/pop whiter than ever? Keep in mind that I'm talking about trends, not the rare exception. This is also entirely in regard to the U.S. as I'm too ignorant of other music markets so say anything of value.

It'd be more work than I'm interested in to go back through the last, say, year, but today's US Top 40 includes Jennifer Lopez, the Black Eyed Peas [black, black, Mexican/Native American, white/Mexican/Native American], Bruno Mars [Filipino/Puerto Rican], Rihanna, Chris Brown, David Guetta, Flo Rida & Nicki Minaj [white, black, black], Jay Sean & Lil Wayne [Indian, black], Diddy, Chris Brown & Justin Bieber [black, bieber], Jeremih & 50 Cent, Cee Lo Green, T-Pain & Chris Brown, Wiz Khalifa, LFMAO [black, black], Enrique Iglesias & Ludacris [Spanish, black], Kelly Rowland, Justin Bieber & Jaden Smith [bieber, black], Bad Meets Evil [black, white], Jessie J & B.o.B [white, black], Beyonce Knowles, Miguel, Nicki Minaj, and Taio Cruz & Kylie Minogue [black, Australian]. By my admittedly offhand count, that's 24 artists in the top 40 who are either black, Hispanic, or are groups which contain black or Hispanic artists. It's not unreasonable to say that the majority of Top 40 musicians are black, from this list.

This doesn't answer the question of whether or not pop music in the US is whiter than ever; for that, we'd need to compare this to "ever." But...

In the 21st century, it seems like segregation has largely returned. You have metal which is mainly for white rednecks. Alternitive, emo, and industrial are mainly for nerdy middle class whites. Country for tea party whites. Top 40 for the mainstream whites. Blacks are apparently expected to listen to rap or hip hop. Hispanics can either tap into black sounds, listen to Spanish language stuff, or occasionally pretend they're white.

Okay, my first advice would be that you ditch the bullshit stereotypes this painful recitation is based on. I think if you interviewed 100 African-Americans, you'd have a hard time finding 50 who listened to hip hop, and I think a pretty reasonable majority would find the question offensive. Some generalizations are useful, but these are just embarrassing. I waited this long to reply hoping that maybe there was a joke involved somewhere, but it doesn't look like there is. I don't mean to be dickish, I'm just saying, damn, dude.

[Bonefish]

I dunno, most of the black people I know listen to hip-hop. BUUUUUUT, I will add that most of the black people I know are firmly in the "urban black" catagory. So, possible selection bias.

[3278]

Most of us live in that selection-bias-land, myself emphatically included. I was thinking pop was pretty white, too, until I read the top 40 and realized I didn't know most of the people on it, so how did I think I knew the racial composition of it? Most of the black people I know listen to hip hop or R&B, but most of the black people I know are young, and that skews things drastically. Most of the white people in my area listen to country, but that's more because of my area than anything about white people.

And there are generalizations about music with truth: most flamenco listeners are Hispanic, for example. Most Amish people don't listen to cold bop jazz, and most young urban whites don't listen to very much Baroque. These things aren't even slightly racial, they're cultural, generational, regional. It's like people think black people are lazy, but that's ridiculous: African people are very hard working. It's the African-American culture that's lazy. I kid! I kid!

[Jeff Hauze]

Most Amish people don't listen to cold bop jazz

Don't you even think about touching the radio dial, or I'll cut you. Nobody fucks with my cold bop jazz.

[3278]

Now that I think about it, it's "cool jazz" and "hard bop," not "cold bop." Whoops.

[Crazy Elf]

Well in Australia most of the music in the Top 40 is stuff from the U.S. performed by African Americans for the most part, or as you people call them coon coon jigaboo jungle bunny porch monkeys.

[3278]

Well in Australia most of the music in the Top 40 is stuff from the U.S.

That's funny, because here in the US, most of the music in the Top 40 is Australian. No, wait, that's not true. Where is it, do you suppose, that the Top 40 is dominated by Australian music?

[Nicephorus]

The thing is, I barely listen to actual top 40 (~10 minutes/week). Or even the radio that much (only in the car). When I check out the rock stations, it's almost entirely white - classic, alternative, metal, it's all white. Living Color was great but they havent' had radio play in forever. I hardly even hear Hendrix on the classic rock stations. Robert Cray doesn't seem to be getting airplay on rock stations any more.

I'm not saying that there aren't black rockers. I'm talking talking about the big mainstream push by corporations.

Jazz and Blues don't show any real racial trend. Classical leasn white slightly in the audience but not as much in the musicians and current composers.

[Nicephorus]

In the 21st century, it seems like segregation has largely returned. You have metal which is mainly for white rednecks. Alternitive, emo, and industrial are mainly for nerdy middle class whites. Country for tea party whites. Top 40 for the mainstream whites. Blacks are apparently expected to listen to rap or hip hop. Hispanics can either tap into black sounds, listen to Spanish language stuff, or occasionally pretend they're white.

Okay, my first advice would be that you ditch the bullshit stereotypes this painful recitation is based on.

Note that those aren't my stereotypes. It's my impression of marketing stereotypes. Marketing is pretty conservative. For example, almost all toys are presented as either for boys or for girls. Video game ads show almost entirely males.

[Nicephorus]

You should really look up Misha Mansoor, aka Bulb.

No radio play, admittedly, but that man is Metal As Hell.

Edit: For example...

This guy's really good. But it points to one of the issues that I see with the music industry right now. I think that there is more great music being made today than ever before. There's also greater variety and innovation. But not much of it makes into the mainstream.

They can blame piracy. But I think the narrow focus of the music industry is the largest contributor to the decline of radio and CD sales.

[Jeff Hauze]

They can blame piracy. But I think the narrow focus of the music industry is the largest contributor to the decline of radio and CD sales.

I'd call it a four way tie between that, clinging to outdated protectionist IP rules, failing to capitalize on new technology, and mistakenly assuming that their profit margin must continue to increase every single year.

[Bonefish]

And atleast down here, there is a lot more cross pollination between the black and white music scenes. We've got a whole bunch of seedy dives where black folks and white folks get together and listen to music and party. I even saw some break dancing last thursday.

[Crazy Elf]

That's funny, because here in the US, most of the music in the Top 40 is Australian. No, wait, that's not true. Where is it, do you suppose, that the Top 40 is dominated by Australian music?

The 1970s.

[3278]

The thing is, I barely listen to actual top 40 (~10 minutes/week). Or even the radio that much (only in the car). When I check out the rock stations, it's almost entirely white - classic, alternative, metal, it's all white. Living Color was great but they havent' had radio play in forever. I hardly even hear Hendrix on the classic rock stations. Robert Cray doesn't seem to be getting airplay on rock stations any more.

Ah. Yeah, this is a totally different issue. This isn't about Top 40 getting whiter - which it clearly isn't - but rather about rock being largely white, and that's largely true, but it's also been largely true for decades. There are exceptions - you've listed a few - but they're uncommon.

I'm not saying that there aren't black rockers. I'm talking talking about the big mainstream push by corporations.

Not a lot of Asians or Indians, either, or persons of Arabic descent. In fact, I would be willing to be that most rock musicians - corporate or otherwise - are white. It's often hard to separate marketing from reality, cause from effect: are there not a lot of black firemen because black people don't apply for the jobs, or because white people don't hire them?

But yeah, I'd bet that there are the ratio of [black rock musicans : white rock musicians] and [black corporate rock musicians : white corporate rock musicians] are not the same. Is this the marketer or the market? I don't have an answer for that.

Jazz and Blues don't show any real racial trend.

I honestly can't think of a way in which this statement could be true. Is it possible I'm not understanding you?

[Iantha]

For example, almost all toys are presented as either for boys or for girls. Video game ads show almost entirely males.

In my limited experience, I have found that gender stereotypes are still much more mainstream than racial ones. I've noticed this in small-town Greenville, as well as in a larger city like Grand Rapids. Less so in Grand Rapids, but still definitely present.

[3278]

Definitely. Gender stereotypes are so mainstream that most people don't realize there's an issue to be considered in the first place.

[Nicephorus]

Jazz and Blues don't show any real racial trend.

I honestly can't think of a way in which this statement could be true. Is it possible I'm not understanding you?

I mean it's not really tied to any race either in musicians or in marketing among contemporary musicians. Of course, they have strong black roots. But if you listen to any current stuff, there don't tend to be black groups or white groups, it's just musicians making music.

One interesting trend in blues has been that has evolved through British interpretation of American music and then come back. Of course, there has been a strong internal thread as well. But people like John Mayall and Eric Clapton show a thorough appreciation of its roots and have helped expand the audience.

[3278]

Jazz and Blues don't show any real racial trend.

I honestly can't think of a way in which this statement could be true. Is it possible I'm not understanding you?

I mean it's not really tied to any race either in musicians or in marketing among contemporary musicians. Of course, they have strong black roots. But if you listen to any current stuff, there don't tend to be black groups or white groups, it's just musicians making music.

Yeah, I was all set to yell and wave my arms around, but then I got to thinking about my own sample bias, and I suspect you're absolutely correct. Actually, come to think of it, I wrote a paper last semester about how correct you are, so who knows why I couldn't put two and two together on that one. Mea culpa.

[Salvation122]

I honestly can't think of a way in which this statement could be true. Is it possible I'm not understanding you?

I mean it's not really tied to any race either in musicians or in marketing among contemporary musicians. Of course, they have strong black roots. But if you listen to any current stuff, there don't tend to be black groups or white groups, it's just musicians making music.

Yeah, I was all set to yell and wave my arms around, but then I got to thinking about my own sample bias, and I suspect you're absolutely correct. Actually, come to think of it, I wrote a paper last semester about how correct you are, so who knows why I couldn't put two and two together on that one. Mea culpa.

Yeah, jazz musicians are, like, the original jam bands. They don't care who they play with, as long as everyone can play.

[3278]

Obviously, for a long time, both jazz and blues were highly racially polarized, but middle school bands play jazz standards now, and jazz is the universal white noise of choice for muzak and talk shows and everything in-between. Blues is still its own sort of sub rosa thing - though certainly not what it used to be! - but jazz has gone from a few poor guys playing in whorehouses to Sunday Night Jazz at Founder's Brewery for Middle Aged White Dudes.

[Jeff Hauze]

but jazz has gone from a few poor guys playing in whorehouses to Sunday Night Jazz at Founder's Brewery for Middle Aged White Dudes.

By the way, can I get I ride with you on Sunday?

[3278]

It's way awesome. I don't even particularly like Big Band - or, to be honest, many styles of jazz at all - and it was still a really good time. Nice bar cheese, and incredible beer, which helps.