Marvel, Civil War #1-7

Ampere · Post by **Ampere** » Thu May 03, 2007 1:22 pm

Just picked this up (I haven't been keeping up with comics for a few years now, but this looked extra good) and read it cover to cover last night.
Man...beautiful art by Steve McNiven. The story was great.
Man...I love Captain America.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Thu May 03, 2007 1:42 pm

I liked it. The ending sucks. (spoiler) Cap surrendering and then Marvel killing him is complete bullshit. I actually canceled my Marvel subscriptions. Granted, I was going to cut back to save money anyway, so that just helped me choose which titles to cut.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Thu May 03, 2007 2:21 pm

Marvel is the one company I rarely read. About the only books that keep me interested are Ultimates and Ultimate Fantastic Four.

I remain a good little DC Drone but my favorites books are coming from Vertigo and smaller distributors. The Walking Dead is a fantastic read. Caz would love it.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu May 03, 2007 3:26 pm

Marvel has been doing surprisingly well lately, and I'd written them off for a long time. They're really ramping up the grittiness in their street-level comics (Moon Knight, Daredevil, The Immortal Iron Fist), but even the New Avengers has been picking up lately.

My favorite Civil War tie-in has to be The Illuminati, though. Awesomeness.

Yeah, I keep hoping Cap's not really dead and is masquerading as the new Ronin. Of course, I keep hoping every single character beats the living shit out of Iron Man for being a douche every single issue.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Thu May 03, 2007 3:28 pm

Fables > *.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu May 03, 2007 8:22 pm

Fables are, indeed, more awesome.

lordhellion · Post by **lordhellion** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:29 am

Civil War got me back into superhero comics, which I had unofficially sworn off of for about a decade or so. It also gave me a lot of respect for characters I was never into before, like Cap, Ms. Marvel, and the Fantastic Four.

And Nick Fury's going to vaporize Stark first chance he gets...

Ampere · Post by **Ampere** » Fri May 04, 2007 3:19 am

lordhellion wrote:Civil War got me back into superhero comics, which I had unofficially sworn off of for about a decade or so. It also gave me a lot of respect for characters I was never into before, like Cap, Ms. Marvel, and the Fantastic Four.

And Nick Fury's going to vaporize Stark first chance he gets...

I believe with my recent discovery of Civil War, it'll have the same effect.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:06 am

I'll wait until it's collected in a hardcover graphic novel. Honestly, I hate the comic book format currently. I want a big ass book to read. Not some flimsy piece of shit. When there's a storyline I like, I just wait for the whole trade paperback/trade hardback set to come out. I can grab like one or two books and read the whole thing. I wish they just did it that way from the start.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Fri May 04, 2007 2:24 pm

Jeff Hauze wrote:I'll wait until it's collected in a hardcover graphic novel. Honestly, I hate the comic book format currently. I want a big ass book to read. Not some flimsy piece of shit. When there's a storyline I like, I just wait for the whole trade paperback/trade hardback set to come out. I can grab like one or two books and read the whole thing. I wish they just did it that way from the start.

It's quite possible that they will. TPB sales have been rising steadily for the last few years. Some books like The Walking Dead are only published in TPB format.

Right now I don't collect individual books unless they come from small press like Avatar (where a TPB is in question).

Somewhat related, there is a big push to get all of the Hitman books collected in TPB because it looks like Ennis has a new run of the book coming out.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri May 04, 2007 3:10 pm

(The following is not addressed at any one poster. It is just my own thoughts)

Fables is certainly a strong line, with it's own highlights and pit falls but it isn't comparable, in my mind, to what Civil War is supposed to be. (This isn't to say that Civil War, or events like Crisis live up to what they're supposed to be.) While I'd certainly recommend Fables to any one looking for a new title to pick up, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Civil War, or events like it.

I have something 7,000 comic books. Events like Civil War seem to have gone from once every few years to once a year, which kind of makes them lose their luster I know. But I do think that the story telling has improved over the years. Men like Frank Miller have paved the way for men like Brian K. Vaughn and Warren Ellis, who are some of the best story tellers in the business. Men like Jeph Loeb and Joss Whedon who transcend their medium-writing for comics, television, and more.

I think one of the saddest parts of comic books today is the obligation publishers seem to feel to continuity. While I agree it makes sense to have a few series that are bound to the core of continuity, it also seems to make sense to have a few places where artists can spin off and play. The Ultimates line, Elseworlds, and the like are fine examples. (Anyone who hasn't read the first hundred issues of Ultimate Spiderman has no idea what they're missing. It's freaking great.)

Now I am certainly am agreeable with anyone who says Civil War, like many events was hard to stomach because it was so big. 50 plus issues crossing what? 20 plus titles? That really is kind of a drag, especially for those of you who actually pay money for these issues.

However I do think there is something to be said for an event like this generating excitement, and change. All of this draws in new readers, which unfortunately is one of the big goals of the people selling comics.

I'll have to spend some more time thinking on this, and I'll post more later.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:29 pm

My assertion of Fables' superiority was silly and glib, in that it's a very different animal from Civil War and comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

That said, Fables is still the single 'best' comic I've read so far, and I continue to enjoy it more than any other.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:41 pm

Serious Paul wrote:Men like Frank Miller have paved the way for men like Brian K. Vaughn...

Excellent.

Serious Paul wrote:...and Warren Ellis...

Can anyone tell me anything he's ever done that isn't just shit? Everything I've picked up by him has been complete and utter ass.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Fri May 04, 2007 4:57 pm

Planetary, Transmetropolitan, NextWave (Agents of H.A.T.E.), and Fell.

There are four examples that I consider to be the best he's written.

Four very different books all written in different styles.

Read any of those yet?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:00 pm

I looked at Transmetropolitan because everyone was going on about how great it was, and tried vigorously not to vomit. Just not my thing. I'll check out the others, though.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:04 pm

What other works of his besides Transmet have you read before?

Ampere · Post by **Ampere** » Fri May 04, 2007 5:56 pm

What IS it with people and their obsession with Warren Ellis?

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri May 04, 2007 6:10 pm

Daki wrote:What other works of his besides Transmet have you read before?

I have no idea. I don't read comics regularly, so which things which people have done that I've read isn't something I generally know.

I think I've seen some Authority and some Planetary, but I could just be remembering them from Paul's Wizard magazines.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri May 04, 2007 6:11 pm

Ampere wrote:What IS it with people and their obsession with Warren Ellis?

I'd like to know, too. Why do those of you who like - nay, worship - him do so?

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Fri May 04, 2007 6:43 pm

I enjoy his stories and how he writes. Each of his books has a different style and voice.
That is what I believe sets him apart from most other writers in the comics medium. He can completely re-invent how he tells a story.

You read Transmet and you get a Hunter S. Thompson future-realist story.

Global Frequency is a series of stories that take modern technology and theories and inter-twines them into a story about an organization that links the 1,001 greatest minds on the planey to deal with the threats. This is also the book that contains the best interpretation of what a cyber-zombie would be.

Planetary shows a darker side of the hero stories we all know. There is no way I can describe it more than that without giving up parts of the story.

Fell is a detective comic. No powers, no special abilities. Ben Templesmith (artist from 30 Days of Night) is drawing the book and it combines with the story to have the perfect atmosphere. Also of note is that this book broke a standard of the comic industry. Right now your basic comic is 22 pages + ads. Every story is written for that format. Fell is 16 pages with 6 pages of back-up (research notes, write-ups that continue ideas used in the story, etc). Other noteworthy item about Fell... each issue is self-contained. You can pick up any issue at any time and get a full story that doesn't require you to go back and read every issue before that. The trend in comics is for story arcs where your average person on the street can't just grab the latest issue and now what is happening.

Need to stick with Fell a little more because it illustrates a big point I want to make.

You have comic readers and everyone else. Over the last 50 years, the comic reading audience has continued to shrink to the point it is now... a niche market. Most creators and companies are focused on competing for the current readers out there. Ellis created Fell to see if there was a way to bring in new readers. Short, self-contained stories that have a shelf price of $2.

Ellis is a writer that creates very good stories but also does not cover the same ground over and over again. Brian Michael Bendis writes good stories too but they all read the same so you feel like you are getting the same story with different character names.

He's done a lot to make me want to be a writer from describing how you can develop an idea, to paying careful attention to the details so what the artist puts on paper makes sense. In Transmet, the cops and security officers wear visors, not glasses because it removes a human element from their face. Little things like that.

Long story, short answers:

I like him as a writer because ee has created some of the most realisitic sci-fi that I have ever read. In addition, he never sticks to a comfort zone and tries new ideas and techniques. Not all are great, but they are always interesting.

And the worship is because of everything else. His articles on writing, thinking about how to create comics that bring in new readers, off-shoots like Eddison Hate Future, Fast Fiction, creating communities for Writers and Artists to link up and create books of their own... it's a long list.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:24 pm

I like Warren Ellis because he had balls back when a lot of people in the mainstream industry did not. He can bring the wow (check out the Authority, which is basically the JLA with cojones facing off against the Galactus scenario), he can bring the funny (NEXTWAVE, which is a bashing of Marvel from the inside), and he can bring the craziness with occaisional segues into real issues (Transmetropolitan, though it fell off a bit in later issues).

Personally, I liked a lot of what he did with magic-users, though his stints tend to be brief: Hellblaze, Hellstorm, Druid, Dr. Strange (basically gearing up for The Doctor in The Authority), Metalscream 2099 (nice little partnering with his old pal Disraeli from his Lazarus Churchyard days).

I dunno. I guess Warren Ellis characters just have different priorities. They're more human than a lot of other characters.

My favorite series of his of late is Desolation Jones.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:31 pm

I can understand people digging Warren Ellis. I can't quite understand why folks worship the ground he walks, outside of the fact that they all just want to bone him. He's no Michael Mann, people.

Fell has been pretty cool. I've dug the few issues of that I read (picked up, only because the artist from 30 Days of Night was on it). But Transmet makes me want to gag. It's always made me want to gag. It deserves nothing more than to be used to wipe one's ass with. I can't even comprehend how anyone ever followed that series. Please don't insult Thompson's name by comparing the two.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Sat May 05, 2007 3:54 am

Other than Fell, none of the titles Daki mentions have impressed me. I don't think of Ellis as being the best writer out there, but he is certainly okay. I like a lot of his other stuff-most of the stuff he's created out of hat just sucks. (FEll being the exception, I think.) I like his work on the Thunderbolts, Ultimate Fantastic Four, JLA Classified and Iron Man.

But then I tend to be pretty harsh on Indie stuff, which a lot of his stuff qualifies as.

I don't follow anything he does outside of comic books, and don't really care, so I can't speak on that.

Jestyr · Post by **Jestyr** » Sat May 05, 2007 4:15 am

Part of what makes Warren Ellis popular is the nature of the culture that follows him. Creators in sci-fi/spec-fi and other 'geeky' areas who are good at communicating with their fans tend to build up a large and loyal cult following. You can see the same sort of effect with Neil Gaiman and Wil Wheaton.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Sat May 05, 2007 4:32 am

See, Gaiman I could understand at least. Then again, I wasn't a Gaiman fan because of his comic work (Sandman and the rest). I was a Gaiman fan because of American Gods and Anansi Boys. Especially American Gods.

Wil Wheaton...well, he spurned Animalball. He can rot.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat May 05, 2007 12:34 pm

Gaiman's always seemed overblown to me - and I like Sandman and American Gods and Good Omens. I just think the rest of his stuff tends to be too...prissy.

Now Howard Chaykin on the other hand...

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Sat May 05, 2007 1:53 pm

Funny enough I've come to enjoy Gaiman's work outside of comics far more than I could ever enjoy his work in comics. (I can't think of any one title he's worked on that really stands out.)

There's a lot of new people I have come to enjoy, including someone I initially hated: Garth Ennis.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Mon May 07, 2007 2:19 pm

Serious Paul wrote:Funny enough I've come to enjoy Gaiman's work outside of comics far more than I could ever enjoy his work in comics. (I can't think of any one title he's worked on that really stands out.)

There's a lot of new people I have come to enjoy, including someone I initially hated: Garth Ennis.

Speaking of Ennis, did you ever grab the full run of Hitman?

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Mon May 07, 2007 2:29 pm

No, I need to look at that.

Ampere · Post by **Ampere** » Mon May 07, 2007 2:50 pm

Jestyr wrote:Part of what makes Warren Ellis popular is the nature of the culture that follows him. Creators in sci-fi/spec-fi and other 'geeky' areas who are good at communicating with their fans tend to build up a large and loyal cult following. You can see the same sort of effect with Neil Gaiman and Wil Wheaton.

That makes sense. Like Javi minions and Joss Whedon fans.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Mon May 07, 2007 2:51 pm

Serious Paul wrote:No, I need to look at that.

I think you will enjoy that one.

And, back on Ellis for a second, I was wondering if you had snagged NextWave. I picked up the TPB this weekend and thought it might be something you'd get a kick out of.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Mon May 07, 2007 3:22 pm

I've been wary of Next Wave. I have some of it, but I'm wary of the concept. But to it's positive I've heard some good things about it from Wizard. I have some time off this week, so hopefully I'll at least get to browse it.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Mon May 07, 2007 3:41 pm

It is not a serious book in any way. The whole concept is to poke fun at the heroes in the Marvel Universe. Take the origin of The Captain. Two aliens looking to enhance someone come across a guy who's dialog is: "<Singing very dirty lyrics from a Sex Pistols song>"

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Mon May 07, 2007 3:58 pm

The only comic I collect is Conan, because I'm a real man.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon May 07, 2007 6:42 pm

Betcha money my Conan collection is bigger than yours.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:29 am

That wouldn't surprise me, as I've only started collecting from the new series.

However, betcha money that I look more like Conan than you do.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 am

Round 1 to the Elf.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:21 am

Jeff Hauze wrote:Round [mb][glow]∞[/glow][/mb] to the Elf.

Fixed.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:30 am

I am the eye of a big cat!

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:41 pm

Crazy Elf wrote:I am the eye of a big cat!

With appropriate montage of training?

Ampere · Post by **Ampere** » Tue May 08, 2007 6:02 pm

Even Rocky had a montage!

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:40 pm

Daki wrote:Somewhat related, there is a big push to get all of the Hitman books collected in TPB because it looks like Ennis has a new run of the book coming out.

Uh, what the hell? Granted its been a while since I last read them, but didn't the last issue have a rather... ah, final ending to it? Although I suppose they could always just go for the lets set it previously/before the ending loophole. Left intentionally vague so as to not spoil anything.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Wed May 09, 2007 1:37 am

FlakJacket wrote:
Daki wrote:Somewhat related, there is a big push to get all of the Hitman books collected in TPB because it looks like Ennis has a new run of the book coming out.
Uh, what the hell? Granted its been a while since I last read them, but didn't the last issue have a rather... ah, final ending to it? Although I suppose they could always just go for the lets set it previously/before the ending loophole. Left intentionally vague so as to not spoil anything.

There is definitely a Hitman story written but it is for JLA Classified meaning it can take place before the end of the series.

Remember this is Garth Ennis. He could make it happen.