Batman Begins

Eva · Post by **Eva** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:22 pm

See it yet? Whatcha think?

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:11 pm

If you're looking to something that's about as close to plausibility as can be managed while still remaining a comic book super hero story, it's absolutely fantastic. I've read that some people don't like Bale once he actually gets in the suit, but I completely disagree. He really puts the Dark in Dark Knight, I think.

Katie holmes on the other hand, still thinks she's in Dawson's Creek. She doesn't look nearly 'hard' enough for someone who has spent almost a decade fighting a losing battle in Gotham's court system. She also looks just way too young for her professional position, IMO.

Kitt · Post by **Kitt** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:44 pm

I was going to respond, but one of the two friends I saw it with yesterday says it perfectly.
Read it here.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:13 pm

There may be spoilers in this, so watch it.

Katie Holmes sucks monkey nuts. What her character provided to the story, the very few lines about responsibility and masks that were there, could have easily been replaced with Morgan Freeman or Michael Caine. You know, someone who can act.

Luckily, she's really not in it enough to worry about. Still, she's bad. Bad is bad and that's all there is to say.

Nice theme, of fear and symbols. I didn't stop being impressed by the movie's ability to keep things on target. It actually managed to say something. This is what worries me about Bale having signed on for another three movies.

If the end of this movie is anything to go by, the Joker will be a focal point of the next movie. The theme of such a movie can only be taking responsibility for your actions and what you create. It's a good theme, but one that I'm not sure America would be happy to present given the current political climate. Also, the Joker kills an awful lot of people.

Ah well, we'll see. If they can keep the focus this movie had, for the most part, it would be grand. If the Joker kills Katie Holmes, even better.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:48 pm

Crazy Elf wrote:Katie Holmes sucks monkey nuts.

That seems to be a universal view, or at least that she was meh/average at best. Quite amusing since one of the reviews I read yesterday was using it as evidence that Batman's a fag - how he seemed much more at home dressed up in a rubber suit grappling with large sweaty men in back alleys than in his Wayne persona and having practically no spark with his 'girlfriend'.

Kitt · Post by **Kitt** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:17 pm

FlakJacket wrote:...how he seemed much more at home dressed up in a rubber suit grappling with large sweaty men in back alleys than in his Wayne persona and having practically no spark with his 'girlfriend'.

As far as I know, in this movie, they're just showing her as a friend who has/had feelings for Wayne. You know, friends with benefits.

I do, however, hope she dies. I disagree with my friend in that she was decent. I hated her...especially that half-smile at the end. Scared the piss out of me.

Reika · Post by **Reika** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:26 am

Saw it today, great, great movie. Have to agree about Katie Holmes needing to die, she was horrible even for a part clearly meant to give ye old typical damsel in distress part.

The performance for all the other major parts were quite excellent except for one: Liam Neeson. Don't get me wrong I think he did a good job, but you could tell his heart wasn't into it since none of his lines had the passion he generally brings to a part.

If I could, I'd go see it in the theatre again.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:08 am

Katie Holmes == bad

They didn't even try to cast her as an existing Batman character!

What I really, really would have loved-and this is just me-is if the fake Ra's had been played by the buggy-eyed guy that did Gowron in Star Trek. Just me. No offense to the excellent Ken Watanabe. The ninja-training was neat, even if the break at the end could have used some dramatic tension.

The gear was good. Morgon Freeman and Michael Caine and Rutger Hauer were good (I say that a lot about those three, so no surprise). I thought Bale did fairly well...even though Holms has this aura of suckage around her. The playboy bit was over-the-top, but that was expected.

Scarecrow was good. I'd have loved for a more drawn-out fight scene. In fact, I'd have loved for more drawn-out fight scenes period. You blink, and you see a shadow and some guys moaning on the ground. Ah, well. I do understand why the refrained from putting Crane in full costume, though.

Liam Neeson and Gary Oldman were good, of course, though they could have made them both look older.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:52 am

I'll defend the lack of drawn out fight scenes. Batman steps on criminals like they're dust, and so drawing it out wouldn't have worked. Scarecrow wasn't much of a deal in this one, so drawn out fights with him wouldn't have made any sense. Psychologist vs. guy who's been beating the shit out of criminals and was trained as a ninja by uber ninjas isn't much of a fight, and nor should it be.

In fact, the only people Batman really had a larger fight with was the ninjas, and rightly so.

Drawn out fight scenes are a cliche. Break cliches, and you get more interesting viewing.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:01 pm

This movie was so much more than I hoped it would be! I cannot stop talking about it, much to my coworkers' dismay. I will probably see it again today or tomorrow. I saw it on IMAX on Friday, but we were only able to get in the front 1/3 of the theater, so it was hard to make sense of most of the action.

I loved the movie from start to finish. The liberties they took from the comic storylines were appropriate. I thought Katie Holmes was decent. All the other performances were stellar, even though many had limited screen time. I'm not a big fan of Morgan Freeman (even though he is a great actor), but he was outstanding in this film.

I thought the batmobile stole the show, but I'm a car/tank/ORV/whatever guy.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Elf. The long, drawn-out fight scenes aren't appropriate for The Bat.

Bale did a good job, although his "dark and brooding" side was slightly more light-hearted than the comics...which, I thought, was appropriate for the medium of cinema.

I cannot recommend this movie enough to people. I don't recommend IMAX, unless you are able to sit in the back 1/3 of the theater.

I can't wait to see what they come up with in the sequel. I'd like to see more flashbacks of training, learning, etc, to show us how Bruce Wayne became/becomes the World's Greatest Detective.

Reika · Post by **Reika** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:37 pm

Definitely agree with Elf and Uncle J, I loved the fight scenes because they weren't stupidly long drawn out affairs. Had they done any of the crap from the Matrix movies I would've left after demanding my money back from the theatre.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:33 pm

Not reading this thread, cause I haven't seen it yet and don't want spoilers, but for any of you that enjoyed the show, thought I'd throw this your way. This was by where I live - today is War of the Worlds, but too hot to stand out there - we went to the beach, instead. Anyways - it's not the best shot, but thought you might think it was cool:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/m ... 332665.jpg

Kitt · Post by **Kitt** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:35 pm

*drools*
That was a tease like you wouldn't believe.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:06 pm

Thanks for the pic Teja...you sure know how to please a man!

sinsual · Post by **sinsual** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:45 pm

Of course Nutscar fans got a nice Tease of the Bat at the "Batman Begins 400" at Michigan International Speedway today as it apparently ran a few of the warmup laps with the rest of the cast from Nutscar.

My thoughts, have pretty much been covered by the rest. I must say they did also go a bit over board with the nipplage on Holmes in the final scenes. Joker and Batman have a long standing fued, and I may be off, but I thought part of that fued had to do with the death of someone from the DA's office whom was close to Batman...mayhaps foreshadowing for the next film? Could be, or maybe its just my wishful thinking. I just wish I still had my DarkKnight series to reference as I thought it was in there when Joker and Bat's are in the tunnel of love and the Joker is rambling poetic...been awhile since I read it however so I very well could be wrong.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:14 am

Joker and Batman have a long standing fued, and I may be off, but I thought part of that fued had to do with the death of someone from the DA's office whom was close to Batman...mayhaps foreshadowing for the next film?

No.

If you subscribe to the revisionist Batman history that is currently held as canon by DC comics the Joker really flipped old Bat's switch by murdering Jason Todd, then crippling Barbara Gordon for life by shooting her in the spine. He's killed thousands. That might also not sit so well with Bruce either.

The DA reference you're thinking of is Two Face who's comic origin was modified actually by the cartoon.

[Edit] The Dark Knight returns is perhaps the greatest comic miniseries to have ever been written, the scene you're thinking of from issue 3, I believe, is where Batman has decided he will kill the Joker and end his madness, after the Joker massacares hundreds in a carnivale-but he can't, and there's a hell of a surprise for any of you who haven't read it yet.

Let's just say the Joker has nut's that are brass, big and bad ass.

Eva · Post by **Eva** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:41 am

FWIW, my review (crossed from LJ, and it's a bit longish..):

+ Christian Bale is perfect. Much like Tobey Maguire was perfect for Spiderman, Christian Bale is perfect for Batman. He pulls off both Bruce Wayne and Batman. And his mouth! Perfectperfectperfect.

- For some reason, Bale thinks he needs to do a funny voice when he's in the batsuit. While it does make him sound more like Michael Keaton, it's kinda weird, like he's posing instead of being.

+ Did I mention there's quite a lot of topless Bale-action? Did I mention he's fucking /fine/? What that guy must put his body through, going from The Machinist to this.

+ There's two bad guys. Upper bad guy and lower bad guy. Upper bad guy is Liam Neeson who I thought was alright, though Francis thought he was very good. Lower bad guy is fucking phenomenal. I couldn't place him at first, but it's Cillian Murphy, of 28 Days Later fame. I didn't recognise him with hair! If this role doesn't establish him as Sick Motherfucker character actor, I don't know what will.

- Katie Holmes? Please. Just, go home.

+ Michael Caine as Alfred is spot-on. I didn't remember Alfred having a Cockney accent (I thought he was really proper-English), but it works.

+ Morgan Freeman is cool. He's just a cool guy, playing a cool role. Nothing spectacular, but good with the comic relief.

? Gary Oldman not a bad guy? What the shit? I can't remember the last time I saw him be good!

? Rutger Hauer, what can I say? I should support my locals, but he just didn't add much. I could imagine someone else in the role of powerhungry dick being more awful.

- The direction in fight scenes is /horrible/. Sure, Batman's fast, but you can't see a goddamn thing. Major downer. Then again, this is Christopher Nolan's first real action film, maybe he needs to get the hang of it.

- So they explain how and why Bruce Wayne became Batman. It feels like they went way over time and then had to cut a bunch of it. The beginning is quite abrupt (I thought I was watching a trailer at first), and the way it goes back and forth between the past and the present is not very smooth. Then again: I can't think of a better way off the top.

+ Did you know that Batman is a ninja? :o)

+ The ninja scenes are awesome. Really good stuff (could've looked better with better direction though, see comment re. fight scenes).

+ I don't remember The Narrows from the comics, but it very nicely filmed. Very lousy/worthless/hopeless/Gotham-looking.

- I think they introduced Robin. *wince*

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:11 pm

- For some reason, Bale thinks he needs to do a funny voice when he's in the batsuit. While it does make him sound more like Michael Keaton, it's kinda weird, like he's posing instead of being.

Personally, I found that to be a huge ass plus, because he is kind of posing when he's in the costume. It's just another small touch that makes Bats the big, mean, angry source of terror he's supposed to be.

Flass: I swear to god!
Bats: SWEAR TO ME!

Fucking brilliant.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:34 pm

I agree. As Batman he must sound different, if I were the producer-which I am obviously not, I'd say he's still new to the whole Batman gig and working on his scary voice.

Eva · Post by **Eva** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:56 pm

Huh. That's an interesting way of looking at it. Thanks for that.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:44 pm

I'm still going to defend the action scenes. Fighting isn't slick, and it isn't cool. I like that the movie didn't convey it to be either. Batman hurts people, badly. This I liked.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:55 pm

Agreed. I would, however, have liked it if you could actually see what little of it there was. For a movie about a guy that spends a fair amount of time running around beating the crap out of people (however quickly), a bit more effort put into fight coreography and execution would have been nice.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:21 pm

Unless my memory is failing, I seem to remember the fight scenes being a little more drawn-out when The Bat was fighting more skilled opponents. He totally crushed the average criminal in a blur, but better trained enemies took longer. This is consistent with any real life fighting, and also with the comics.

For some reason, Bale thinks he needs to do a funny voice when he's in the batsuit.

This is also consistent with comic lore. The Bat usually speaks with a gravelly, low voice that tends to scare the shite out of the average criminal. This is done on purpose to add to the image. I also agree with Paul that Bale is probably still sorting out how to /be/ the Batman, and we may see better renditiont of "the voice" in future installments.

I'm still going to defend the action scenes. Fighting isn't slick, and it isn't cool. I like that the movie didn't convey it to be either. Batman hurts people, badly. This I liked.

Again, I'm 100% with the Elf here. I prefer realism to Hollywood dazzle these days. Fights are never pretty. They're down and dirty, and Batman is known for fighting dirty. In the real-world fights I've been in, even the strictly "martial arts" ones, the battles never look like they do in the movies, with the exception of Batman Begins. Fights are usually over very quickly, and are usually a flurry of one person beating the crap out of someone else, keeping the loser on the defensive the whole time.

JongWK · Post by **JongWK** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:29 am

Saw it today. Great, great movie. One of the best I've seen this year.

I want that car. Would a kidney suffice?

JongWK

PS: Even though this is a summer blockbuster, anyone thinks there could be a couple of Oscar nods for it?

Eva · Post by **Eva** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:18 am

Doubt it. Best supporting, maybe.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:47 pm

Katie Holmes is out for the sequel(s). Pretty much everyone else is back in.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:17 pm

Crazy Elf wrote:I'm still going to defend the action scenes. Fighting isn't slick, and it isn't cool. I like that the movie didn't convey it to be either. Batman hurts people, badly. This I liked.

Testify!

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:33 pm

Fight scenes can be short. This I wouldn't mind. Fight scenes can be brutal. This I wouldn't mind. Fight scenes can't be shakey-cam "Did something just happen? I think someone hit something and then fell over... who won? Oh, must've been batman because he's still there" useless crap in a movie format. Pull out on occasion, have enemies fly back from his area, hell don't even show the actual combat, just do that cool thing where guys got taken out in a single blow from nowhere... Showing me an arm during a punch (and not even the puncher's arm, just a random one) gives no useful information.

The ninja fight scenes were equally useless. There was no connection between quick-flash shots of useless angles. I literally had no idea what happened during the fight. There was no dramatic tension because there's no way of knowing if batman is taking hits or just giving them out. They could have replaced those fight scenes with Old-School Adam West "Biff!' "Bam!" "Socko!" and it would have had the exact same impact for me. More! At least then I'd know a hit occured.

There is no defense of bad camera work and constant flash-cuts. It is an excuse to not have good choreography or even bother to have an actual fight scene at all. "Mind your surroundings..." Bullshit, I couldn't even see the surroundings of any of the battles. The camera never pulled out enough to let you see them. The fight scenes needed to just be cut entirely and they could just leave the really awesome ninja scenes in to convey the instant "badguys go poof" idea.

Luckily the fight scenes were also blissfully short, and everything else was really good.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:52 pm

Movie, minus Katie = Teh Win. Christian Bale is Batman.

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:23 pm

No, I am Batman. Would you like to ride with Batman?

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:43 am

Good Day Citizen! Hey Coach...

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:00 pm

Finally got around to seeing this and loved it. Few minor thgings here and there that annoyed me a little but nothing major. Probably going again with firends that haven't seen it yet.

JongWK · Post by **JongWK** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:56 pm

I hope they hire Johnny Depp as the Joker for the sequel. I mean, who else if not?

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:25 am

The only Joker in my opinion is and can ever be Jack Nicholson.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:47 am

I've heard rumours that the next Joker could be Sean Penn. If so, that's some seriously competent casting.

Reika · Post by **Reika** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:05 am

Crazy Elf wrote:I've heard rumours that the next Joker could be Sean Penn. If so, that's some seriously competent casting.

Hell, look at who they had in this past movie. With the exception of Katie Holmes, the cast was something else.

Though I had a thought for an interesting Joker. Mark Hamil. He did a bangup job voicing him in the first animated Batman series, could be interesting to see if he could act the part.

Eva · Post by **Eva** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:20 am

Oooo, Sean Penn would be good. I don't see it happening, but he'd be good. My favorite for the part is Michael Keaton. :o)

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:34 pm

I'd like to see a fresh face do the Joker. While the stellar cast of Batman Begins was awesome, it'd be cool to see some newcomers get some meaty roles.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 7:19 pm

I'd like to see Walken. I mean, he's ... limber. And he's one of the few lanky dudes creepy enough to take a character like the Joker and seriously make you fear him.

And UncleJ - holy shit. Having a total love/hate with your avatar.

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:33 am

That's what I was thinking, too. I think he could bring a serious creepiness to the role that the others couldn't.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:34 am

MissTeja wrote:And UncleJ - holy shit. Having a total love/hate with your avatar.

The funny thing is that, back when I wore glasses, you would have thought that was really me.

Eva · Post by **Eva** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:00 am

UncleJoseph wrote:I'd like to see a fresh face do the Joker. While the stellar cast of Batman Begins was awesome, it'd be cool to see some newcomers get some meaty roles.

A newcomer did get a meaty role in Batman Begins. I'm quite sure most of the audience had never heard of Cillian Murphy before.

UncleJoseph · Post by **UncleJoseph** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:46 pm

Eva wrote:I'm quite sure most of the audience had never heard of Cillian Murphy before.

Possibly, although I knew who he was. I didn't really think of him as a newcomer. On the other hand, that would only strengthen my argument for using a no-namer for the joker. Murphy did an outstanding job as Scarecrow.

Jeff Hauze · Post by **Jeff Hauze** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:32 am

Cash, on one hand, I have to agree with you. On the other I gotta call foul. Jack did a great job as the Joker, no doubt. But frankly, he made him a bit too funny, and lost some of the pure psychosis that makes the Joker so fucking cool. I look at the Joker of the Arkham Asylum graphic novel, and I just think that Jack missed a whole aspect to the character. Other than a few places, he seemed to go for a bit too much nyuck-nyuck Stooges style, and missed some of the real mindfuck style humor that the Joker is known for in the comics.

As for casting for the Joker, I honestly think there aren't near enough good candidates out there. I love Sean Penn, but I think he would be fucking horrible as the joker. Walken even more so, simply because he's essentially been the Joker in some other films or at least played characters with a great deal of striking similiarities.

The first film's greatest strength lied in freshness. A slew of fresh faces (some new, some just not cast into such larger roles), fresh material, a fresh outlook on the entire Batman phenomenon, and most importantly, some surprising casting decisions. In that vein, I think Walken would be far too easy of a choice. I want to see someone who really has to reach for the role, and just really work hard to fill some huge shoes. Walken doesn't need to reach to play it, he doesn't need to just put everything he has into the role just to pull it off. You look at Gary Oldman, certainly major nobility of the "villianous" actors, who got thrust into such a heroic role and he pulled it off with absolute flair.

My call would be with an absolute newcomer or someone on the younger side than Walken. It's not an age factor, but I think you'll need a similarly aged villian to really showcase himself against Bale, otherwise you'll lose the fire of the Joker/Batman relationship. I'd call for Del Toro as the strongest possible of known actors, even though it would require some change of the Italian mobster past of the Joker. Nonetheless, beyond him, it needs to be someone who simply hasn't been in those humorous psychotic roles before, or at least not in a large majority of them.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:26 am

What about Eva's suggestion to get Keaton as the Joker?

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:33 pm

DV8 wrote:What about Eva's suggestion to get Keaton as the Joker?

Knee-jerk reaction: No way!

*insert some thinking*

You know, that may not be a bad idea. I would see him taking the role in a more "serious" direction like the version of Joker Alan Moore wrote in the The Killing Joke.

Mark Hammil has the laugh through. Not the look, but definitely the laugh.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Willem DeFoe yet.

And now that my brain is in overload, I'm thinking Christopher Walken as Harvey Dent/Two-Face.

...damn, drooling again!