The Death Penalty

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:23 pm

Spinning off from another thread... the death penalty.

Are you for or against? Why or why not?

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:37 pm

I'm for it. I support streamlining and reducing the the legnth of the appeal process. I also support more frequent use of it over life sentencing. I see no reason to pay large sums of money to feed and house murderers and rapists.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:48 pm

It doesn't seem to be acting like a deterrent. Neither do long sentences. But perhaps this is all a cultural difference again, which makes it useless for me to comment on the subject.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:48 pm

Against. Mistakes can and do happen. Lot easier to just release a guy than bring him back. That and considering the state of prisons, not like life without parole is that much of an easy option either.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:01 pm

Lot easier to just release a guy than bring him back

People die senseless death's everyday. What's one more?

not like life without parole is that much of an easy option either

Yes but it's easier to house a guy for a year, deny his appeals, then shoot him full of lethal chemicals then to house him for 60+.

It doesn't seem to be acting like a deterrent

It's not about deterring people. Or it shouldn't be. It's about eliminating a threat.

Now, I'd like to note that I also support massive revisions to our rehabilitation system. It should be set up so that we can help people turn their lives around. I just don't see the point in throwing good money down the drain. If you do not want to live peaceably in society, then we need to stop wasting resources on you.

Daki · Post by **Daki** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:12 pm

For. Definitely for it. I don't see it being as much a deterent as it is appropriate punishment for crimes comitted.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:52 pm

Against, because of the mistakes. In my opinion, there is no way that this system can be correct 100% of the time. You cannot give someone back their life once it is taken. You can return their liberty.

People die senseless death's everyday. What's one more?

I just have this thing with our government intentionally killing its own innocent citizens.

[edit]

I don't see it being as much a deterent as it is appropriate punishment for crimes comitted.

Which begs the question: What is the purpose of punishment?
[/edit]

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:00 pm

Against, it doesn't work as the intended deterrent.

It is also quite odd I think, we don't allow people to kill people but if you do it anyway someone else (or the state|government) is going to kill you for killing. It is the rule with the giant exception.

Moo doesn't feel like paying for them to just sit around and pumping iron and arses of other inmates all day long. Hell I don't want to pay for that either, lets use the bastards and not just let them sit around waiting to die, spending the time.

Then there is the mistake or oops factor, not like that has not happened. Perhaps if we perfect cloning one could do that, and whoops a misstake and then bring back the person - unfortunatly a lot of things have happened durring the dead and jail time so he might be even more screwed then before, so that doesn't really feel like an option.

It's not about deterring people. Or it shouldn't be. It's about eliminating a threat.

If he is locked away the threat is eliminated, sure he could escape (god knows we know that, Sweden had two prison breaks durring the last two weeks ... fun fun fun .. not). But then I guess hell could freeze over and the dead rise from their graves to, it just isn't very likely.

I'm for rehabilitation or care in the prison system, but one has to face that some people are just beyond rehabilitation and help. They are the once we have to build an underground escape proof bunker for somewhere and toss the key after we locked them up, cause they are lifers and should never be let out.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:08 pm

What are the current figures for US citizens behind bars vs total US population? Anyone?

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:09 pm

I'm for the Death Penalty - but only in very specific circumstances.

I'm willing to give everybody a second chance - you murder, rape, kidnap, or commit armed robbery the first time. You get to live. Heck, I'll even let you live if during an armed robbery you wind up murdering somebody. Granted, you'll pull some decent prison time, but you'll be able to get out

But the second time you commit one of these crimes, the only possible sentence should be death.

I understand that people make mistakes and poor choices, but there has to be a limit.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:12 pm

One "freebie" ... so if you go on a killing spree and say take out 20 people at one time, does that count as ONE crime or 20? After all it was just one killing spree, or one loooooong serialkilling ...

So with your "freebie" who would you kill?

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:13 pm

We need a new Australia...

"We're not gonna kill ya, but we're not gonna turn you loose either. So we're gonna export your ass to half a world away, where you won't bother us no more".

Stargate for one please. One way.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:14 pm

Time to find an island in the middle of nowhere and drop them all of and let them live there own "uncivilized" life? mmmm ... that never works out well in so many cheesy action movies ...

mmm wouldn't it be wonderful if /dev/null actually existed?

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:14 pm

Subversive Agent wrote:What are the current figures for US citizens behind bars vs total US population? Anyone?

Highest in the world baby - http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1044.pdf

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:15 pm

hey another thing you are number one at ...

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:19 pm

lorg wrote:One "freebie" ... so if you go on a killing spree and say take out 20 people at one time, does that count as ONE crime or 20? After all it was just one killing spree, or one loooooong serialkilling ...

So with your "freebie" who would you kill?

It does get hard to define, what with high-capacity firearms. Since it's my world here, I'd still incarcerate if you killed a handful of people in a burst of fire (like you panic with your tech-9). But if there's bodies scattered all over the crimescene, it's Capital Punishment time.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:19 pm

lorg wrote:Time to find an island in the middle of nowhere and drop them all of and let them live there own "uncivilized" life? mmmm ... that never works out well in so many cheesy action movies ...

mmm wouldn't it be wonderful if /dev/null actually existed?

There's always hawaii.... Shame about the nice weather though.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:22 pm

How about Iceland? Cold ... far off ... closest neighbour is greenland or someplace ... a bit closer to europe then the usa ... still large enough to house them all ...

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:25 pm

We'd send them back to you.

"Return to sender, no known address" and all that.

Or turn them into shock troops for Iraq. You wouldn't make any friends with the local population though.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:48 pm

TheScamp wrote:Against, because of the mistakes. In my opinion, there is no way that this system can be correct 100% of the time. You cannot give someone back their life once it is taken. You can return their liberty.

No, you can't. You can /restore/ their liberty, but you can't give back the liberty you've taken. I know, a nitpick, but a spade is a spade and I like to make sure we're calling it one.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:05 pm

If he is locked away the threat is eliminated,

At great cost to the Tax payer. If we just off him ASAP, the threat is eliminated /and/ we aren't wasting tax payer dollars.

Hell I don't want to pay for that either, lets use the bastards and not just let them sit around waiting to die, spending the time

Now this idea I like. I've never understood how serving prison time "pays your debt".

I just have this thing with our government intentionally killing its own innocent citizens

Except that hasn't occured. They were found guilty in a court of law. I'm opposed to the government locking up innocent citizens for 20 years, but that doesn't mean I'm going to campaign to abolish prisons.

You can return their liberty

And how does that return their life to them? You think I just walk out of prison and someone offers me a job as the high level project manager I would have been? You declare you made a mistake, and suddenly I have the wife and kids I would have had if I hadn't been prison? Can you return to me the sannity I had before I was brutally ass raped repeatedly for 20 years?

No sir, prison takes away my life just as much as death. There is no difference.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:18 pm

MooCow wrote:At great cost to the Tax payer. If we just off him ASAP, the threat is eliminated /and/ we aren't wasting tax payer dollars.

Well yes. But we're civilized. On wednesdays, anyway. Biscuit?

Now this idea I like. I've never understood how serving prison time "pays your debt".

It doesn't, it's just a nice liberal soundbite.

Except that hasn't occured. They were found guilty in a court of law. I'm opposed to the government locking up innocent citizens for 20 years, but that doesn't mean I'm going to campaign to abolish prisons.

You can't undo dead, but you can undo jailed...

You can return their liberty

And how does that return their life to them? You think I just walk out of prison and someone offers me a job as the high level project manager I would have been? You declare you made a mistake, and suddenly I have the wife and kids I would have had if I hadn't been prison? Can you return to me the sannity I had before I was brutally ass raped repeatedly for 20 years?

No sir, prison takes away my life just as much as death. There is no difference.[/quote]

Well that's your opinion... How can you know that Mr. "I am Bubba's bitch and I'm innocent" shares it? Kinda cruel to send someone to their death with the "I know how you'll feel in 20 years time, better end it now" excuse.

Someone mentioned freezing cons. I think that would be exceedingly bad. Why? because prison is supposed to have a two fold effect : to punish prisioners for their errors and to reeducate them (if need be).

Now, you freeze somebody, all you're doing is taking away years. You are punishing them by age, not by incarceration. And if jailtime no longer scares people from commiting crime, the thought of losing a couple of years in Ice-Sleepy-Land would most certainly scare them even less.

Cost effective? Maybe. Crime preventive? Not a chance.

Maybe if more extreme methods of interrogation were made available for the most extreme cases (rape, murder, etc), maybe if we were sure being any possible doubt that person A commited crime B...

I don't have a problem with the death penalty. We have enough humans running around. It's not like we're an endangered species or something.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:19 pm

I've never seen anything wrong with chain gangs or the like. Although I'm still split on whether they should be a voluntary or compulsory thing.

DV8 wrote:It doesn't seem to be acting like a deterrent. Neither do long sentences. But perhaps this is all a cultural difference again, which makes it useless for me to comment on the subject.

Or merely provides another viewpoint. It might be a contentious issue, but your beliefs are as valid as everyone elses.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:21 pm

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:24 pm

Until such time as we revise our current criminal justice and penal system, I'm against it. Once everyone who can be rehabilitated is being rehabilitated, I have no problem with putting down the people who cannot function in modern society and are perpetually violent.

This will loop back to one of the purpose of the criminal justice system threads -- I don't think punishment makes sense. If it's an accident and I really will never do it again (and I would have avoided it the first time if I possibly could have), making me serve three years in prison is stupid. If it's part of my inherent nature and, without proper care and treatment, I will do it again over and over, letting me go is stupid (especially letting me go without proper care and treatment). That's our current system, and it's stupid. And under that system, along with the appeals process, the death penalty will be equally stupid.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:24 pm

FlakJacket wrote:I've never seen anything wrong with chain gangs or the like. Although I'm still split on whether they should be a voluntary or compulsory thing.

"Yes yes, chain me up and make me work the land!". Errr... compulsory please. Unless they got a bad ticker.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:27 pm

Well that's your opinion

No, it's a fact. I'm willing to bet that what I stated will /not/ occur upon release from prison for a false conviction.

And again.... who the fuck cares? People die /everyday/. Saying we should do away with the death penalty because a few people are accidently killed is like saying we should do away with cars because a few people are killed every year in auto accidents. It happens.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:28 pm

I think the system needs reform in both directions.

The system needs to go back to being a 'Penitent' system, the way it was to begin with. You're in a penitentiary because you need to feel remorse for your actions, and have a change of personality so that you won't do it again.

The gangs that apparently run prisons (or do so on the investigative TV journalism shows) need to be destroyed. The only social hierarchy that should exist inside a penitentiary should be the one established by the warden and his staff.

A large part of me believes that summary executions (for crimes that would earn you execution normally) administered by penitentiary staff would do a great deal to curb prison violence. Convicts/Inmates should not have to be afraid of the other inmates. However, this does violate my original intentions for the Death Penalty.

Finally, after you have completed your sentence, your record should be sealed against review by anyone other than law enforcement/judiciary system. You've done your time, you should be able to return fully to society.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:28 pm

No but you could induce them by paying them small amounts of money to spend later back in prison. Or say that for access to certain priveleges, above the basics, you have to sign up for it.

MooCow wrote:People die /everyday/. Saying we should do away with the death penalty because a few people are accidently killed is like saying we should do away with cars because a few people are killed every year in auto accidents. It happens.

Invalid comparison. People dying from cars is usually accidental whilst executing someone certainly isn't.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:30 pm

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:32 pm

FlakJacket wrote:
DV8 wrote:It doesn't seem to be acting like a deterrent. Neither do long sentences. But perhaps this is all a cultural difference again, which makes it useless for me to comment on the subject.
Or merely provides another viewpoint. It might be a contentious issue, but your beliefs are as valid as everyone elses.

No they aren't. Stop filling Deev's head with your nonsense, Flak. None of Deev's beliefs are valid unless I hold them also.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:35 pm

Invalid comparison. People dying from cars is usually accidental whilst executing someone certainly isn't.

No. Executing a Guilty Person is not accidental. Executing an Innocent Person is.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:38 pm

Cazmonster wrote:I think the system needs reform in both directions.

The system needs to go back to being a 'Penitent' system, the way it was to begin with. You're in a penitentiary because you need to feel remorse for your actions, and have a change of personality so that you won't do it again.

The gangs that apparently run prisons (or do so on the investigative TV journalism shows) need to be destroyed. The only social hierarchy that should exist inside a penitentiary should be the one established by the warden and his staff.

A large part of me believes that summary executions (for crimes that would earn you execution normally) administered by penitentiary staff would do a great deal to curb prison violence. Convicts/Inmates should not have to be afraid of the other inmates. However, this does violate my original intentions for the Death Penalty.

Finally, after you have completed your sentence, your record should be sealed against review by anyone other than law enforcement/judiciary system. You've done your time, you should be able to return fully to society.

Solitary confinement all around. Problem is exercise, showers, chow time... you can't rotate thousands of people so they're always alone 24/7. So you need bigger cells, where people can shit, eat, exercise, read, etc. A change in mentality and architecture is required about the whole crime & punishment thing.

Of course by doing this I'm sure I'm trampling all over the civil rights of prisioners... you'll notice I didn't mention TV, drug dealing or butt sex.

I'm getting Judge Dredd flashbacks.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:05 pm

No sir, prison takes away my life just as much as death. There is no difference.

I think there are a great number of people who have gotten out of prison who would disagree with you. I think most of them would agree that realased from prison > dead.

Saying we should do away with the death penalty because a few people are accidently killed is like saying we should do away with cars because a few people are killed every year in auto accidents.

Poor analogy. The purpose of cars isn't to kill, nor are those deaths intentionally carried out by the government.

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:06 pm

Or are they?

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:10 pm

Buzzed · Post by **Buzzed** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:15 pm

Against it. I don't think killing anyone is a solution for anything if that person is in bondage, unable to do harm to society. The only times I see it appropiate to kill a prisoner is to prevent death or serious injury to other people and if the prisoner is making a jail break.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:20 pm

Bishop wrote:Or are they?

Listen to your friend. Or else...

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:39 pm

nor are those deaths intentionally carried out by the government

Neither is the execution of Innocents. If the government kills someone that is later found innocent, the government didn't intentionally kill an innocent person. The intended to kill a guilty person, they just screwed up.

The purpose of cars isn't to kill

The purpose of the death penalty isn't to kill, it's to eliminate a threat.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:43 pm

The intended to kill a guilty person, they just screwed up.

A screw up which is completley unacceptable.

The purpose of the death penalty isn't to kill, it's to eliminate a threat.

Through killing.

Cazmonster · Post by **Cazmonster** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:43 pm

Subversive Agent wrote: Solitary confinement all around. Problem is exercise, showers, chow time... you can't rotate thousands of people so they're always alone 24/7. So you need bigger cells, where people can shit, eat, exercise, read, etc. A change in mentality and architecture is required about the whole crime & punishment thing.

I'm against continuous solitary, as I want them to have social interaction. If they chose to murder or rape while in prison, then it's time for two shotgun shells behind the ear in the middle of the exercise yard.

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:51 pm

Solitary confinement all around. Problem is exercise, showers, chow time... you can't rotate thousands of people so they're always alone 24/7. So you need bigger cells, where people can shit, eat, exercise, read, etc. A change in mentality and architecture is required about the whole crime & punishment thing.

Yay, Pennsylvania School!

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:01 pm

We don't need the death penalty. We need prison reform. Take everyone who's black, and send them back to Africa with our government's humble apology for allowing people to buy them and ship them here. That'll empty our prisons and reduce crime drastically. Also, it'll mean fewer people, less urbanization, and more available jobs for those people who came here not in chains and collars, but voluntarily. Much like Europe after the black death, thing's'll be rough for a little while, but in the end, everyone will be better off than they were. Well, except maybe the "New Africans," but if they're at all clever, they'll be gods to the old africans, who know nothing of how to produce electricity, use water power, or make galoshes.

Oh, gee. Not many african-americans know how to do those things, either. Well, better learn quick, guys.

Subversive Agent · Post by **Subversive Agent** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:05 pm

3278 wrote:We don't need the death penalty. We need prison reform. Take everyone who's black, and send them back to Africa with our government's humble apology for allowing people to buy them and ship them here. That'll empty our prisons and reduce crime drastically. Also, it'll mean fewer people, less urbanization, and more available jobs for those people who came here not in chains and collars, but voluntarily. Much like Europe after the black death, thing's'll be rough for a little while, but in the end, everyone will be better off than they were. Well, except maybe the "New Africans," but if they're at all clever, they'll be gods to the old africans, who know nothing of how to produce electricity, use water power, or make galoshes.

Oh, gee. Not many african-americans know how to do those things, either. Well, better learn quick, guys.

*Safety off on a AK47* "Who is this..Wellfare? You say he gives you money? Where is wellfare? Bring him to me!"

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:12 pm

A screw up which is completley unacceptable

Why? Life is Life, Death is Death. Why get worked up over it?

Through killing

So? The purpose is not to kill. Killing is not the end goal, eliminating the threat is. The the person does die in the process is entirely irrelevent.

Coasini · Post by **Coasini** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:18 pm

I expect to catch a lot of flak for this one.

I personally support the idea of public executions for the death penalty. I support the idea of the death penalty, especially executed like this, as a deterrant for crime.

I know that most people, if they grew up seeing people hung or shot in public (or on tv) for committing crimes, would be less inclined to commit crimes.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:18 pm

3278 wrote:We don't need the death penalty. We need prison reform. Take everyone who's black, and send them back to Africa with our government's humble apology for allowing people to buy them and ship them here. That'll empty our prisons and reduce crime drastically.

Forced repatriation to Liberia?

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:27 pm

I personally support the idea of public executions for the death penalty

Here Here! I also support public caning as an alternative to prison. Locking people up because they were "bad", but don't pose a direct threat to society is just damned silly.

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:37 pm

For it.

Locking people up because they were "bad", but don't pose a direct threat to society is just damned silly.

Forget sending all the blacks to Africa...if the the US would just reform its drug laws to be less Puritan, we could empty our prisons.

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:49 pm

MooCow wrote:
I personally support the idea of public executions for the death penalty
Here Here! I also support public caning as an alternative to prison. Locking people up because they were "bad", but don't pose a direct threat to society is just damned silly.

Have wealthy sadists pay big bucks to be allowed to cane. It solves the funding problems and gives everyone the proper mindset: If you have money, you can beat people legally.