A whacky idea for public schools

Chopper · Post by **Chopper** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:40 pm

Here is an off-the-wall idea for public schools.

Would there be a benefit to having all police stations and public schools combine into the same buildings? As kids go to school each day, they pass by various offices that are part of the police station before they reach their classrooms. This would increase the child's exposure to police officers 1000 fold.

Would the youth crime rate go down if this was the case? Would there be more respect for athorites? Would officers bond more with their citizens as they watch them grow up year after year? Or would this put the children more at risk?

Obviously there would need to be some sort of seperation of students and criminals. Certain doors would be spacifically for students, while criminals would be brought in and detained an areas of the building away from students.

Nightsky · Post by **Nightsky** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:16 pm

Bad idea. Where do you think cops first take the crinimals they arrest? True, some separation, but then we get into the whole mess of the fact that what goes on in police stations is not really something you want your kids seeing. Not to mention the idea of prisoners trying to escape with a ready supply of hostages next door.

On the flip side of the coin, it would probably reduce the crime rate of the area around the school. So I would suggest that you don't need both of them in the same building. That's just silly. Relatively close int he same neighborhood would be good. The officers would still see the kids on a regular basis.

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:57 pm

<voice class="Second Grade Teacher">Is that you, Harvey Albert Madison?! *grabs ear* Are you in trouble again? Well, you'll just have to sit in the corner for the next three years... </voice>
<voice class="Hardend Criminal"> NOOOOOOOO! Mr. Policeman, you gotta get me outta here... take me to prison. Come on, please! </voice>

Tee hee.

lordhellion · Post by **lordhellion** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:40 pm

Housing Public Schools with Police Departments would be an 8/10-of-a-step to just giving the military control of public schools. The idea chills me to the bone...

If you want to have children respect authority figures, then teach parents how to be authority figures.

Buzzed · Post by **Buzzed** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:46 pm

lordhellion wrote:If you want to have children respect authority figures, then teach parents how to be authority figures.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:37 pm

With all due respect to ya Chopper and props for good intentions, this would be a horrible, frightening thing to be implemented.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:37 pm

I am going to say maybe it wouldn't be a good idea. Too much is unanswered for me. I dislike the idea of using police in this fashion-its not exactly fun for them to be our baby sitters.

Add in that most police stations see some use-meaning a high number of people coming and going for various reasons-I can't see it being a good idea. Add ina jail-and well I am against it.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:41 pm

lordhellion wrote:Housing Public Schools with Police Departments would be an 8/10-of-a-step to just giving the military control of public schools. The idea chills me to the bone...

For some kids, that might not be such a bad thing. Ask Moo.

Buzzed · Post by **Buzzed** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:42 pm

Nightsky wrote:but then we get into the whole mess of the fact that what goes on in police stations is not really something you want your kids seeing.

In a sense, you dont want to expose your kid to the trash talk of the scum of the city (don't say it! Resist the temptation!), but in another hand, it would be educational to have a kid learn how the system works. Do something wrong, face consequences, do something wrong, face consequences, day in and day out. The message every parent needs to emphisize to their child.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:23 pm

Its admittedly a fine line, and one that I am sure varies for each child. I think there must be a better way than this to teach the lessons you'd liek to teach, and to implement this idea.

Nightsky · Post by **Nightsky** » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:45 pm

it would be educational to have a kid learn how the system works

Take them on a field trip.

crone · Post by **crone** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:01 am

There are problems with implementation, like the safety of the kids, and inconvenience to the police. Parents will raising all kinds of holy hell, too. My mian problems with this idea, though are

1) It's not at all certain that the kids will learn the message you want them to learn (about doing wrong and getting punished). There are a number of ways to interpret what is going on at a police station, and a lot of what is going on is at odds with the way we teach our kids to behave to each other. What are kids to make of, say, several officers manhandling a suspect into the building, whilst he is loudly protesting his innocence? Or if they see a relative being arrested, they are not necessarily going to think "he probably has that coming".

2) The "do wrong, pay the price" message is not insignificant, but it's not high on my list of important things for my kids to learn. It's way below "Believe in yourself" "Don't be afraid to take risks", "Treat others the way you want to be treated", and a bunch of other, more constructive messages. It's not even true. The other thing is, I don't want my kids to have intense experiences of violence and unkindness every day. I don't want them to encounter criminals and lawlessness on a daily basis. I don't see how that is a good environment for them to be in.

Nightsky · Post by **Nightsky** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:08 am

"Mommy? Why is that officer beating that man with a stick?"

"They're just talking, honey."

mrmooky · Post by **mrmooky** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:35 am

Buzzed wrote:Do something wrong, face consequences, do something wrong, face consequences, day in and day out.

And yet, I'll bet you don't think that this is actually the case in the justice system. Many people do lots of things wrong, and get off on technicalities. Your schoolkids would be seeing that on a daily basis, too.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:48 pm

There is absolutely /no way/ this would ever happen, at least in an American school system. Any school that even tried to bring up such a proposal would have it smashed into the ground before it's proponents even got a word out. I don't know about abroad, but there is no way in hell I would put up with any school system doing such a thing.

The liability of such a situation would be tremendous, not to mention that it would completely go against many school regulations already set forth, such as guns in public schools. Also, I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell I want a pedophile brought in for his booking at the local junior high. No student would benefit from this in the long run. If occupational and authoratative exposure is what you're seeking to implement, beef up the field trips, include more school-based officers, - hell, put the god damned mayor's office in the school, but do not do anything as crazy as this.

It literally makes me shiver that some people think this is a good idea.

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:04 pm

crone wrote:2) The "do wrong, pay the price" message is not insignificant, but it's not high on my list of important things for my kids to learn. It's way below "Believe in yourself" "Don't be afraid to take risks", "Treat others the way you want to be treated", and a bunch of other, more constructive messages. It's not even true.

That's terribly frightening.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:06 pm

How so? Realistically, I'm sure you've done stuff and never got caught for it just like practically everybody else on the planet.

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:31 pm

Oh, sure, all the time; I run the idiotic stop-sign halfway down my street every single day and haven't gotten any crap for it yet. However, I /do/ understand that what I'm doing is illegal (even if the law in this particular case is /stupid/) and I wouldn't contest a ticket if I got one. My parents were /very/ sure to instill that actions had consequences over "believe in yourself," or "don't be afraid to take risks." The idea that a child's self-esteem is more important than the realization that you get in trouble if you fuck up is /very/ wrong, to me.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:37 pm

I have to back Sal on that one. It's the principle of the matter. Kids need discipline when they do wrong or they will never learn the difference. Of course, and perhaps more importantly, is the need for positive reinforcement when they do right, but if children are not taught the cause and effect of bad behavior from a very early age, the reprecussions could be very damaging to their futures and those around them.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:17 pm

Oh I agree absolutely that kids have to have discipline. I might be off, but I don't think crone meant that she doesn't not teach her kids about consequences at all, she does just that she stresses other messages over it. If you get what I mean.

Szechuan · Post by **Szechuan** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:36 pm

Salvation122 wrote:
crone wrote:2) The "do wrong, pay the price" message is not insignificant, but it's not high on my list of important things for my kids to learn. It's way below "Believe in yourself" "Don't be afraid to take risks", "Treat others the way you want to be treated", and a bunch of other, more constructive messages. It's not even true.
That's terribly frightening.

To be fair, I would think that those messages can instill the same amount of personal responsibility as "Fuck up, and face the consequences."

Buzzed · Post by **Buzzed** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:53 pm

Don't forget "Be prepared to take risks" meaning, if you take a risk, make sure you are ready to face the consequences if you fail. I see too much finger pointing these days in the news.

"Don't be afraid to take risks" is incomplete. The complete version would be, "Don't be afraid to take risks that you have prepared for."

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:50 pm

I think this is a freaking awesome idea!!!

crone · Post by **crone** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:09 pm

I didn't say "do wrong-> get punished" was completely without merit. It is not in any way equivalent to "Actions have consequences".

The really important thing about a stop sign IMO, is that it lets you know the intersection ahead requires care, that you need to STOP, to assess it properly, and regulate your speed, and that other traffic will be expecting you to behave in a certain way, and might be unprepared if you don't. Not that you might get a fine if you get caught running it. The focus on getting punished puts the emphasis in completely the wrong place. I am sure that Sal meant he runs stop signs if he thinks he won't get caught AND it's safe, but we are teaching kids from the ground up.

Buzzed, you have a good point about taking risks.

I have been contemplating this thought lately Total responsibility, no control As in, you have total responsibility for your actions, but in the end, no actual control over the outcome. What do you all think?

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:47 pm

crone wrote:The really important thing about a stop sign IMO, is that it lets you know the intersection ahead requires care, that you need to STOP, to assess it properly, and regulate your speed, and that other traffic will be expecting you to behave in a certain way, and might be unprepared if you don't. Not that you might get a fine if you get caught running it. The focus on getting punished puts the emphasis in completely the wrong place. I am sure that Sal meant he runs stop signs if he thinks he won't get caught AND it's safe

Actually, from the description, I think he literally means a stop sign half-way down his road. One not at an intersection, just kind of hanging in the middle of nowhere. We have a few of those in my area as well, they're designed to get people to slow down on roads that have a lot of schools and kids around. I think. In general, I think they're idiotic and a poor choice of usage of the sign type, but it is a stop sign, even if there is no intersection, so you're supposed to come to a complete stop.

As a side note, I'd like to ask if someone can quote me the Police Officer suicide (attempt?) rate, and the generally accepted reason behind it. From what I remember, it's something rather high as an occupational rate, and the reason is seeing the "scum of the city" on a daily basis and knowing that people like that are out there, and not just in a few places, but all over. I'm not sure letting kids see that, day in and day out, would be exactly the most motivational of experiences.

MissTeja · Post by **MissTeja** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:23 am

MooCow wrote:I think this is a freaking awesome idea!!!

Of course you do.

Crone: My misunderstanding.

Thorn · Post by **Thorn** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:45 am

lordhellion wrote:If you want to have children respect authority figures, then teach parents how to be authority figures.

Also, teach parents to exhibit respectful behavior.

For instance, just this afternoon we went out for lunch with the boys for the first time (like, we walked into a restaurant and sat down, not drove through the KFC drive-thru for a bucket). And we're having lunch blah blah, and the waitress asked me if I wanted a refill on my iced tea, and I replied something like, "That would be great, thank you" and when she returned with it, I thanked her again. And it occurred to me how many times I've seen other families dining out and the parents don't acknowledge their server when s/he brings the fifth soda refill of the meal, or delivers whatever special thing they requested or what-have-you.

And then these parents wonder why their kids are rude and disrespectful? Acorn, tree, you know the rest.

Salvation122 wrote:
crone wrote:2) The "do wrong, pay the price" message is not insignificant, but it's not high on my list of important things for my kids to learn. It's way below "Believe in yourself" "Don't be afraid to take risks", "Treat others the way you want to be treated", and a bunch of other, more constructive messages. It's not even true.
That's terribly frightening.

Salvation122 wrote:My parents were /very/ sure to instill that actions had consequences over "believe in yourself," or "don't be afraid to take risks." The idea that a child's self-esteem is more important than the realization that you get in trouble if you fuck up is /very/ wrong, to me.

Okay, I'm gonna be a bit of a shit here.

Sal, did you read all of Crone's paragraph? Because you quoted it, and well... she begins it by saying that teaching her kids consequences "is not insignificant." Then she goes on to say that one of the important things she wants to teach her kids is to "treat others the way you want to be treated" which, seriously, a) is pretty much the cornerstone of most laws/rules, and b) at its core is all about consequences (i.e. if you treat people crappily, they'll treat you crappily).

So, um, did you just assume that since she's "liberal" and dared utter the words "believe in yourself" as something she wanted her kids to learn that she must be all about teaching her kids all kinds of feel-good ya-ya-bullshit at the expense of teaching them to be decent citizens? That she's one of those parents who is, under the guise of "strong self-esteem", raising unapologetic megalomaniacal selfish bastards?

Perhaps if you'd read what she's written, instead of what you assumed she (the evil "liberal") had written, you would have realized that what she said wasn't frightening at all.

[EDIT: Fixed quote tags]

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:12 am

I love you too, Thorn.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:04 am

crone wrote:2) The "do wrong, pay the price" message is not insignificant, but it's not high on my list of important things for my kids to learn. It's way below "Believe in yourself" "Don't be afraid to take risks", "Treat others the way you want to be treated", and a bunch of other, more constructive messages. It's not even true.

I read this as saying that "do wrong, pay the price" is "not even true." If that's not what the "It's" was referring to, what was? And if "do wrong, pay the price" is considered to not be true, is that not a "terribly frightning" notion?

crone · Post by **crone** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:29 am

3278 wrote:
crone wrote:2) The "do wrong, pay the price" message is not insignificant, but it's not high on my list of important things for my kids to learn. It's way below "Believe in yourself" "Don't be afraid to take risks", "Treat others the way you want to be treated", and a bunch of other, more constructive messages. It's not even true.
I read this as saying that "do wrong, pay the price" is "not even true." If that's not what the "It's" was referring to, what was? And if "do wrong, pay the price" is considered to not be true, is that not a "terribly frightning" notion?

That is what I meant. I thought Sal meant that it was frightening that I would teach my kids that, not that it's frightening that it's true. But yes, it is frightening; it frightens me, anyway.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:10 pm

Why do you believe that "do wrong, pay the price" is not true?

In any case, I think perhaps Thorn jumped to a conclusion in much the same way she believed Sal did. I thought perhaps that instead of doing so myself, I'd actually ask what was meant. You know, because I'm so cool and shit. I rule. Boo-yah.

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:19 pm

I think crone means that people get away with all sorts of crime every day. You're almost as likely to not pay any sort of price, especially if you've got money. Of course, I think it's just as dangerous to teach that (not that crone is advocating that we do) as it is to teach that hard work is meaningless, but I'm done arguing about it.

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:25 pm

WillyGilligan: don't you dare to bring up "hard work" issue again

(kidding!)

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:13 pm

Hey, just a statement of opinion, not a call for debate. The salient part of it is that, while it's true that many people can seem to get away with murder, that doesn't really change the fact that considering your actions as having consequences is more likely to result in careful action (if not necessarily less destructive action).

crone · Post by **crone** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:56 pm

Thanks for asking for clarification, 32.

I will try to say what I mean really clearly, but I have so many thoughts on the issue that it will probably end up a mess.

Actions have consequences, yes. That is not some kind of shorthand for good discipline. If you steal something and don't get caught, one of the consequences is that you have a shiny new toy. People here are saying, if I understand them correctly, that parents today protect their kids from the consequences of their actions. I won't go off on a tangent, but just say that I don't know what 'parents today' are doing, or what the new context for that statement (about actions and consequences) is. If you touch a hot stove, you will get burned. That is not a moral lesson. If you mean something else, we are not talking about the same thing.

It's very convenient for us parents (and no doubt for police etc) if our kids think we know and see all, and they'd better not try anything, but once they work out it's not true (my 3 yr old has already worked it out) the jig is up. "Do wrong, pay the price" is magical thinking. How is it supposed to work? If the agents of retribution are human, then they are fallible and imperfect. (I don't believe in divine ones.) If you wanted to say "break the law and you might get caught", well, that is something else.

A few people have pointed this out already, but there are people all over the world who 'do wrong' and profit by it, every day, in small and large ways. I'm sure everyone here has gotten away with something, benefitted from telling a lie, something like that. I have often heard people get upset because they are doing everything right, but something is still not working out. Our world just does not work all neat and tidy like that. You can debate how much of this you should tell kids. Personally, I think it's cruel to bring them up to believe in a just world; they will only be disappointed. Much better to teach them what to do about it - and how, and why, to bring justice. It's not built in.

A final point, the standard of behaviour allowed by law is much, much lower than what I expect from my kids.

Buzzed · Post by **Buzzed** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:50 pm

crone wrote:Personally, I think it's cruel to bring them up to believe in a just world; they will only be disappointed. Much better to teach them what to do about it - and how, and why, to bring justice. It's not built in.

Didn't your parents ever tell you, "Life isn't fair." ?

crone · Post by **crone** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:24 pm

Buzzed wrote:Didn't your parents ever tell you, "Life isn't fair." ?

Hang on, I thought we were arguing.

C'mon, people, "Total responsibility, no control" what do you think?

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:41 pm

I'm a responsible person...

*Runs around amok, making helicopter noises.*

Vralkie · Post by **Vralkie** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:44 am

Call me crazy, but my upbringing and views are very different from "do bad; pay price"

I was brought up under the lesson of, "it's only illegal if you get caught". What I've taken away from that lesson has been a little different though.

When one is in a position of authority, one makes rules. The people for whom those rules apply are those that respect that respect that authority. When one breaks said rule, one is rejecting the rule-making-body's (RMB) authority to make/enforce said rule. This means that the RMB loses a little bit of said authority each time that someone disregards said authority.

In essence, if one breaks another's rule, one is disrespecting the RMB. The loophole of this is that by not getting caught, no one has to lose face; Thusly, no one cares about the infraction. By not getting caught, one isn't subjected to the humiliation of submitting to the RMB's will. YAY!...

(hope that made some sort of sense...)