Newsweek: Innocents Abroad

[DV8]

In the June 28th edition of Newsweek there's an article titled Innocents Abroad, about the growing anti-American sentiment in Europe, American tourists and the dividing line between the United States and it's citizens. I can't remember the last time I felt so divided about an article as this one. Have a look and tell me what you think of it while I gather and organise my thoughts.

[DV8]

Second, ever-so-slightly-and-totally-not-as-serious-as-the-first-article article...

Americans Don't Wear Speedos ... But I Do. by David Ray

What's a poor U.S. expat to do to escape a public stoning? Don political camouflage, of course, an dpretend to be native.

Afraid I was "going French" after living on the Riviera for three years, my parents express-mailed me several American-flag lapel pins, similar to the kind worn by the President George W. Bush and bearing the words, PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN. I, by contrast, fear a public stoning in Nice's city center - and strive to conceal my American identity. Operation Comme des Garçon, I call it. That is, blend in with the locals.

My transformation began at 0900 hours on the beach, one recent weekend, in a skimpy black Speedo. No American would be caught dead in one, except perhaps tri-athletes and the most avant metro-sexuals. But I've never felt safer in a disguise that offered so little ultraviolet protection. Political camouflage has become my obsession. Off the beach, I wear prefaded jeans by Façonnable, low-cut Pumas and football jerseys sporting my new alias, ZIDANE. Deodorant has been replaced by enough eau de toilette for two. I briefly considered a tattoo but was spared the pain by my children who "loaned" me several peel-offs feating Power Rangers.

My diet has taken a left turn, too. Gone are gin and tonics with a squeeze of lime. Real men in France drink pastis - a licorice-tasting milky fluid that creates a shock-and-awe effect on the taste buds. (If you cannot imagine the flavor, mix a cup of Listerine with your kid's leftover Halloween candy and serve over no more than two cubes of ice and add a splash of cream.) It's the sort of aperitif that puts hair on your chest. Real Frechman don't eat cooked food, either. they prefer raw oysters and steak tartare served with raw egg yolks, washed down in summer with copious amounts of rosé, a wine known by Americans to be served at luncheons for ladies playing brige.

After several weeks of this cultural hormone therapy, I am now the embodiment of European "soft power" masculinity, as at ease with my inner multilateralist as any man from Paris or St. Tropez. Rather than reward myself with a fast car or a day of mountain climbing in the Alps, I spend lazy days playing boules under the shade of sycamore trees and long Sunday lunches with my family. I even shop for my wife's lingerie at La Perla. Life has become a balanced, epicurean existence that's far from feminine but closer to its mystique. Or so I thought, until one fateful day as I wandered the market seeking sweet cherries and a ripe fromage de brebis made by the rugged farmers of Corsica. Speaking to me in French, a vendor asked if I were...Canadian? "No," I had to admit, "I'm an American." The kind that still loves France and wishes that our two countries were as close as the colors of our flags.

[Eva]

The article is fucking ridiculous, and can't really even be called an article. The life he's describing is the shiz, though!

[lorg]

*yawn!*

Based on the article alone I'd conclude that Mr.David Ray is pretty borring guy not worthy of my attention. He is just pandering to the lowest common form of american audience (if there is such a thing) by mentioning a few things americans in general think about the french (smelly, the dress, the food etc).

I doubt this so called article is even print worth in such a magazin. Must have been in the joke of the week column.

Concidering the american obesity rate I'm not surprised they don't wear speedos, something we are all greatful for.

[MooCow]

I think I don't really care what the rest of the world thinks. Do you care that I think european governments need to pull their heads out of their asses and realize this world isn't all cake and roses? Then they need to do something about it?

I think that's really what the whole problem is. American's, to over generalize, like to act. Especially once we've decided there is a problem. Granted, we sometimes take a while to decide there is a problem, but once we have we want to act. When I look at the debacle that is Iraq, I think "We may be wrong, but at least we're trying to do something". It seems to me Europe isn't trying to really do anything about the things they've decided are problems.

[DV8]

Whoa, guys. The second post is a seperate article. Click the linky in the first post. Sorry to confuse.

[3278]

What a crock of shit. To be anti-America or anti-American because you don't like the politics of America's current administration is the most pathetic and ill-mannered sort of bias. I think Italy's politics are a load of bullshit, but I don't dislike Italians, and I sure don't set up baricades and flaming tire walls when the Italian prime-minister-of-the-week is in town. Sometimes, I make fun of France, but I also try to make it clear that I'm not serious, and that I don't hate French people just for being French. The Netherlands is a crock-pot of insaniac socialist whackos, at least some of whom make it into office and put in place policies I think are ridiculous, but I don't beat up Dutch people just on principle.

I've been advised to hide my nationality in the past when I'm in Europe, and particularly to hide my politics, which are widely held as being nuts [in Europe and elsewhere]. While I've toned these things down in the past, I try not to hide, try not to call myself Canadian just so people won't hate me. Anyone who hates me because I'm American can take my big black boot directly up their ass.

Years and years of Europeans talking about how bad nationalism is, but now they're putting the shoe on another foot: instead of irrational pride in their nation, some Europeans - many of them - are inverting that order and having an irrational hatred of people based on their nation. This is exactly the same kind of stupid, divisive shit that has landed various European nations in ridiculous wars for the last couple thousand years.

The US gets a lot of crap from Europeans, but almost never gets credit for the things we do for Europe, economically, socially, culturally. Euros bitch about American cultural imperialism, and then eat at McDonalds and wear our clothes and listen to our music and watch our movies. When there's a problem - war, disease, crazy eastern european dictators killing tons of people - we're the people they call, but instead of a thank-you, what we usually get is spit on and made fun of.

It's fun to speak with rational Europeans about this topic. At first, they'll usually pull out the same Euro party line about bad america and her bad politics, but given enough time, they'll usually admit that America gets a much worse rap than it deserves. People resent us for many reasons that have nothing at all to do with the politics of our administrations, and a lot more to do with cultural jealousy. Certainly, the level of hatred is completely out of proportion to the harm done by our nation.

America does vastly more good than harm on the world stage, but recieves vastly more ridicule than thanks.

[MooCow]

Whoa, guys. The second post is a seperate article. Click the linky in the first post. Sorry to confuse.

Amazing how an American, being stupid as we are, recognized this fact when two Europeans (who we all know are vastly more evolved) did not.

Yeah, I found it hard to believe that some ding bat American could hide the fact that he is a ding bat American just by wearing speedos. I'd like to think that our problems are caused by cultural differences a bit deeper then a pair of speedos. Maybe not though.

Concidering the american obesity rate I'm not surprised they don't wear speedos, something we are all greatful for.

It really has nothing to do with that. Having worked in a water park, I can testify to the number of Fat men who wear speedos. "Is he wearing speedos?" "I can't tell, the rolls hang to far down. He might be naked." "*shudder*"

[Mjelvis]

The vast majority of American tourists, however, will likely set foot on the old continent just as they always have—loud, largely ignorant of local politics, infused with an almost childlike naivete born of the fluke of geography that has shielded them from the historical carnage and lessons of war woven into the fabric of European society. It is this innocence—many would say ignorance—that is likely to cause trouble.

There's a lot of insight displayed here. I've seen the same ignorance in most American tourists I've spoken to

[TLM]

OK, fuck it. I had a long post, but it got eaten. So I'll give the short short version.

Moo: I think European governments are afraid that "We may be wrong, but at least we're trying to do something" might create vastly more problems than it solves. Europe has learned that lesson very, very painfully through the age of imperialism and two World Wars.

3278: Yes, the US has gotten a bum rap from Europeans. But... think back two and a half years. And further. Think back to Clinton. Bush 1.0. The Cold War. Up until autumn 2002, most of Europe quite liked Americans. Who was the first European head of state to travel to the US to offer condolances, sympathy and aid? Jaques Chirac, the French PM. The whiners were mostly on the far, faaar left. Also:

According to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Europeans draw a clear distinction between the United States as a nation and the American public.

If people cannot draw that distinction, they should shut the fuck up. I hope I've managed to draw that distinction clearly enough, and if I haven't I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize. I still think W is a moron, but I have nothing against the average US citizen. And although I could throw in a jab at american tourists here, it's been my experience that almost anyone who's travelling abroad suddenly suffers an acute drop in IQ level.

But please do explain the "Cultural Jealousy" thing. It has me completely baffled.

[Edit: Fixed an amazingly stupid spelling error.]

[FlakJacket]

But please do explain the "Cultural Jealousy" thing. It has me completely baffled.

I think he means in like how American culture through televisiion, films- I will never say movies , clothing and chains of stores like McDonalds are spreading accross the world. France has had to legislate a minimum percentage of songs played on the radio must be in French, in their eyes to protect their culture and stop American encroachment. People get jealous that American culture is the most popular in the world and edging out local ones- much to the annoyance of local conservatives and 'guardians of national culture' as they often style themsleves.

I'm trying to write this post better but I just can't seem to get the words right to do justice to the whole scenario.

[Paul]

when i am done laughing myself silly, I'll gather my thoughts up for a coherent post. Probably Weds. or Thursday.

[MooCow]

I think European governments are afraid that "We may be wrong, but at least we're trying to do something" might create vastly more problems than it solves

Try and you may fail. Do not try, and you are guaranteed to fail.

[3278]

I've seen the same ignorance in most American tourists I've spoken to

I've seen at least as much ignorance of American culture from Japanese, Chinese, and European tourists - among others - in America, which is even more overwhelmingly bizarre, since American culture - unlike European culture - is being spread all over the globe like a fine layer of sticky peanut butter.

[Liniah]

Ok, #1- the first article link doesn't open for me. I would really, really like to read it, but it just freezes IE for me. Will try again tomorrow.


#2- before either side makes judgements (any farther) of the other, let me just say that it's a really fucking different viewpoint after having lived on both sides.

#3- I think this is a brilliant topic and deserves my attension when I'm a bit more sober.

[FlakJacket]

For those that can't connect to the page, here's the story.

Innocents Abroad

American tourists are flocking back to Europe. Will they leave their cowboy boots home?

By Adam Piore
Newsweek

June 28 issue - June 4 in Rome was the kind of day when police chiefs keep the espresso machines humming and the antacid tablets close by. President George W. Bush was in town, and anti-American sentiment was running riotously high. More than 10,000 policemen were on the streets. Security experts had secured manholes, removed trash Dumpsters and flushed out sewer systems—the better to safeguard against bombs and snipers.

None of that deterred the 250,000 demonstrators who poured into the streets and squares, upending trash cans and setting up barbed-wire barricades of their own. They burned tires and American flags, threatened patrons at McDonald's, smashed car windows and threw smoke bombs at police. Amid the chaos, two blond college-age American girls wearing sneakers and low rider denim shorts happened upon the Piazza della Repubblica, the epicenter of it all. After a moment of surprise, enlightenment dawned. "Hey," one said to the other. "This must be where George Clooney and Brad Pitt are filming!"

It's official. Anti-Americanism has set new records since the terrorist attacks of 9/11 occasioned one of the worst tourist slumps in recent European memory. Yet those angry sentiments notwithstanding, the dog days are gone. Travel-industry experts are nearly unanimous in their predictions that a major American tourist invasion is in the offing this summer in Europe. What's less clear is how many of these travelers are aware of the deep and seething hatred most Europeans harbor toward George W. Bush—and to what extent that anger may be directed toward them. One thing is for sure: politics will loom as ubiquitous this season as tour-bus exhaust. And Americans would do well to leave their cowboy boots at home.

Just how big a boom are we talking about? For the month of April, U.S. -led travel to Europe was already up 20 percent over last year—and 5 percent above April 2000, according to the Geneva-based International Air Transport Association. Even with the weak dollar, pent-up demand and cheap airline tickets will continue to drive tourism from America above and beyond the pre-9/11 days. According to a recent study by Yahoo Travel and Harris Interactive, 75 percent of Americans plan to travel this summer, with the average household spending more than $1,700. Of those booking through Yahoo travel, 27 percent plan to visit the United Kingdom, 13 percent will hit Italy, 12 percent will go to France and 10 percent will visit Germany. "We have a double-digit increase in customers going to Europe," says Dan Garton, executive vice president of marketing for American Airlines. "There will be more flights, and they will be fuller."

That's good news for Europe's stagnant tourist industry. One travel agent likens the last three years to "the four horsemen of the apocalypse." First came 9/11 and fears of terrorism abroad. Then came a recession, the SARS scare and the war in Iraq. Says Pamela Lassers, spokeswoman for Abercrombie and Kent, a luxury travel agency in Oak Brook, Illinois: "At long last a real recovery is underway." The recovery of transatlantic relations may take a little longer, however. According to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Europeans draw a clear distinction between the United States as a nation and the American public. Still, there appears to be at least some spillover. The number of Frenchmen who reported a positive opinion of individual Americans has declined significantly, from 71 percent two years ago to 53 percent today. In Turkey, where popular cruise-ship visits will resume for the first time in two years, 59 percent of the population now believes suicide attacks against American civilians are justified. Some young tourists aren't taking any chances. Many plan to hide their identity, to the extent they can. Some pretend to be Canadians.

The vast majority of American tourists, however, will likely set foot on the old continent just as they always have—loud, largely ignorant of local politics, infused with an almost childlike naivete born of the fluke of geography that has shielded them from the historical carnage and lessons of war woven into the fabric of European society. It is this innocence—many would say ignorance—that is likely to cause trouble.

The stereotype of the ugly American, alas, is alive and well. In London, Americans can already be seen in droves strolling Piccadilly in shorts and sneakers, talking loudly and looking confused with their maps and fanny packs tightly strapped to their expansive waists. In Rome, on the fashionable via Condotti just below the Spanish Steps, a foursome of dashing Italian men posed in immaculate suits at a fashionable coffee bar, their shoes impeccably unscuffed, their neckties loosened oh-so-slightly in the heat of the summer's day. "It's not just the loud, boisterous behavior," says Giovanni Spina. What gives Americans away is their fashion sense. "They wear sneakers on the street!" he said, marvelling at the gauchness of it all. "They slather on sunscreen until they glow," added a friend. "They ask for ice in their drinks," said another. "They want —their salad before dinner," gaped a third.

For many Europeans nowadays, the blithe disregard of local customs that American tourists often display, as well as their sometimes aggressive sense of free-spending entitlement, carries an unfortunate echo. Was it not similar attitudes that rang out of the White House in the days preceding the invasion of Iraq, where Bush rammed through his hegemonic policies with utter disregard for Europe? "The other day I heard some unpleasantly loud Americans, and I caught myself immediately thinking of Bush," says Carsten Meyer, a Berlin media consultant and self-described friend of America. "It's weird how totally politicized the whole idea of America has become." Shamoon Zamir, director of American studies at London's King's College, says the cliche of the loud American tourist hasn't changed. What's changed is how entrenched it's become and how readily Europeans now apply it to all Americans since the war in Iraq. "It is not really hatred but this half-articulated unease at American stupidity and provincialism."

Already, Americans traveling to Europe this year complain of being singled out for long, patronizing lectures and unpleasant political re-education campaigns—despite their best efforts to steer clear of politics. "A lot of the Germans I run into these days act like they feel sorry for me for being American," says Trent zum Mallen, a Web site editor from California who works in Berlin. "They think I'm a victim of some horrible government and want to teach me about democracy." Andrea, a student from California studying at the London School of Economics, was recently at the theater in London when a precocious 10-year-old accosted her. "Your president is a bad, bad man," the little girl informed her. "He should know better!"

Sometimes such interactions turn downright hostile, especially after a few pints. Patrick, a grad student who withheld his last name, was standing at the bar of a London pub enjoying a beer and catching up with friends. A former Clinton administration staffer who has just completed a degree at the LSE, the 34-year-old Pennsylvania native had made an unfortunate fashion choice: on his feet he wore a broken-in pair of black cowboy boots. "Are you American?" asked a twentysomething British man, spying Patrick's offending footwear. "Yes," he replied, a bit confused. "I hate you," the man then said, sauntering back to his friends and giving them high-fives. On her first night in London, Emily Begnaud, a student from University of Georgia, went to a pub that happened to be playing a roster of songs including Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA." "The bartenders behind the bar cut the song off right after the lyrics 'USA' and they were jeering at us and giving us weird looks," says Begnaud. "I can see why others around the world might be frustrated with America right now but it is a shame that their bad feelings fall on us."

Of course, some Americans have only themselves to blame. Just days after the Rome protests, retired dentist Robert Pernell of Orange County, California, and his wife were accosted on the Spanish Steps by a young Italian man who asked them to sign an antiwar petition. "I told him I wouldn't sign the petition and explained that we were from out of town, and he just started yelling at me," Pernell told NEWSWEEK. "I said, 'You should be so lucky to live in a place like America!' I just don't appreciate it when what we're doing is trying to save the world," he went on to say. "They should thank us." An Italian man sitting nearby rolled his eyes. "That's what is wrong with the Americans," he said, then left in a huff.

Such incidents are unusual. Indeed, many Europeans seem to take a smug pride in their ability to forgive ordinary Americans for the transgressions of a leader they view as maniacal and out of control. For the savvy tourist, the current state of tension can even have its advantages. In France and Germany, condemnations of Bush made by American tourists are liable to be met with warm expressions of sympathy, free drinks and even, on occasion, telephone numbers and dates. In Germany, John Kerry would win 85 percent of the vote—a statistic that has not been lost on Jeremy Minsberg, an Internet consultant from Minneapolis living in Berlin. "Every time I go walk my dog I wear my Kerry button," he says. "People stop me all the time to strike up a conversation. It's a great experience."

In fact, some Americans have come to Europe precisely because they share the Continent's disdain for Bush and his administration. Destination No. 1: Paris. "I had to go on antidepressants after the 2000 election," says a retired doctor from Tucson, Arizona, who's lived in France for the past three years and participated along with "Americans Against the War" in the June 5th anti-Bush protest. "I only started to feel better when I left and came here." Now she is urging her friends to move abroad, too, should "the unthinkable happen in November."

Actor Johnny Depp is perhaps the best-known American to flee across the Atlantic. Living in the south of France with French singer Vanessa Paradis, Depp earned himself a good old-fashioned U.S. press whipping when he lambasted America not long ago, comparing his country to "something like a dumb puppy that has big teeth—that can bite and hurt you."

For these Americans, there's nothing but love and good will. Many French recall their country's traditional ties to America, from Lafayette and the Statue of Liberty to the revolutionary ideals of 1789 enshrined in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights. Perhaps subliminally, this bond seems to draw centrist and leftist Americans to France in larger numbers than conservatives, who often seem put off by liberal French attitudes toward everything from sexuality to health care and taxes. (The always-defiant neocon Richard Perle is an notable exception. An architect of the plans to invade Iraq, Perle keeps a home in the French countryside. Whether he'll be back this summer, though, is anyone's guess.)

Yet even in these times of cultural confusion, the cliches often break down. In Istanbul, not far from where the cruise ships disgorge their passengers, a NEWSWEEK reporter approached the most heavily bearded, baggy-trousered Taliban look-alikes he could find and announced he was American. The response each time: "Hos geldiniz"—"Welcome." "The more your people come here, the more you will understand Islam," said Ibrahim Ahmetoglu, 44, before making a pitch to convert the reporter. "We have nothing against the American people, just your crazy president," added Ilter Dondurmaci, 24. For the record his name means Mr. Ice Cream.

With Barbie Nadeau in Rome, Ginanne Brownell in London, Stefan Theil in Berlin, Andrew Ehrenkranz and Marie Valla in Paris and Owen Matthews in Istanbul

© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.

[FlameBlade]

"Your president is a bad, bad man," the little girl informed her. "He should know better!"

I have no idea, but that made me laugh.

[Liniah]

Thanks.

"I said, 'You should be so lucky to live in a place like America!' I just don't appreciate it when what we're doing is trying to save the world," he went on to say. "They should thank us." An Italian man sitting nearby rolled his eyes. "That's what is wrong with the Americans," he said, then left in a huff.

This is totally it.



I take it as a compliment when Europeans don't think I'm American. Sure, I am American, but I don't act like the steryo-typical American, which I consider a very good thing. When people do call me American here, I tend to take it as an insult. It's an interesting situation (one that I just spoke with Flame & others about on IRC). Neither side quite understands eachother enough to really get what's going on, IMO. People just don't understand. More tomorrow. (G'night all!)

[3278]

"I said, 'You should be so lucky to live in a place like America!' I just don't appreciate it when what we're doing is trying to save the world," he went on to say. "They should thank us." An Italian man sitting nearby rolled his eyes. "That's what is wrong with the Americans," he said, then left in a huff.

This is totally it.

1. Can I point out that, again, here's some snotty Italian fuckass saying that there's something "wrong" with "Americans?" Nice generalization. Ass.

2. They /should/ thank us. Is there anyone here who doesn't believe America deserves thanks for the positive things we've done? The diseases we've cured, the medications we donate, the refugees we take in, the dictators we stop? If we deserve blame for our failures, do we not deserve praise for our successes?

That's what's wrong with the Europeans.

[FlameBlade]

and sad part, that's 6969th post by 3278 here.

[DV8]

Can I point out that, again, here's some snotty Italian fuckass saying that there's something "wrong" with "Americans?" Nice generalization. Ass.

[snip]

That's what's wrong with the Europeans.

Nice.

I still having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it all. On the one hand, many of the things described in the article are the very extremes of European culture (if there is such a thing), and definitely is not an accurate representation of all Europeans - though I tend to be rather vehement regarding anti-Americanism (because, believe it or not, I rather like America) and because people have come to know this about me don't make their opinions known anymore. So, I might totally be wrong on that, but my perception and experience tells me that it really isn't that bad.

However, on the other hand, while 3278 has a point that the ignorance of tourists is pretty much universal, and as TLM said that almost everyone who travels abroad "suffers an acute drop in IQ level," there is something about Americans that make them so incredibly jarring sometimes. Like a busload of Japanese tourists, with their Nikon cameras around their necks, entirely recognisable and confirming every stereotype of their people, many Americans tend to be as the article describes them; obnoxious. The only demographic that seems relatively spared from that stereotype are the upper/middle class 50+ American, and that's because they portray a certain calm, keen interest in what's going on around them, which a lot of other Americans lack, zipping through the city being largely ignorant of a lot of things that go on around them.

I think it's a shame that Americans think they need to hide their nationality when abroad, whether the reason their own ignorance, their government's highly unpopular foreign policy, or the bastardly feeling of superiority indulged in by the Europeans. I, for one, think the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle and that the Americans should try and be a little less ignorant, while the Europeans should be better hosts to the nationality which has provided such an influx in the long-dead tourism industry.

[lorg]

Travel-industry experts are nearly unanimous in their predictions that a major American tourist invasion is in the offing this summer in Europe.

Tourism is always nice, concidering the recent (year or so) drop in the dollar value I'd think the USA will also see an increase in tourism from abroad, so it will be good for the tourist industry everywhere not just in Europe.

... deep and seething hatred most Europeans harbor toward George W. Bush—and to what extent that anger may be directed toward them. One thing is for sure: politics will loom as ubiquitous this season as tour-bus exhaust. And Americans would do well to leave their cowboy boots at home.

Always some jackass that can't make the distinction. I'm not in the GWB fan club but that doesn't mean I hate all americans, I reserve my hatred for special cases that are not dependant on nationality. I don't dislike GWB cause he is an american I dislike him cause I think he is one giant jackass that have made the world a much worse place.

According to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Europeans draw a clear distinction between the United States as a nation and the American public. Still, there appears to be at least some spillover.

I think that is a valid distinction to make, after all I make it. I know 3278 doesn't think so but well that is his problem, not mine. To comment on 3278's comment on the subject I think Berlusconi is a little fucktard to but that doesn't mean I have anything against Italy.

The number of Frenchmen who reported a positive opinion of individual Americans has declined significantly, from 71 percent two years ago to 53 percent today. In Turkey, where popular cruise-ship visits will resume for the first time in two years, 59 percent of the population now believes suicide attacks against American civilians are justified.

Anyone got the stats here on how many Americans hold a favorable view on various European nations (if they can even tell them apart)? From these stats I would conclude that 59% of the Turkish population are totally nuts.

"It's not just the loud, boisterous behavior," says Giovanni Spina. What gives Americans away is their fashion sense. "They wear sneakers on the street!" he said, marvelling at the gauchness of it all. "They slather on sunscreen until they glow," added a friend. "They ask for ice in their drinks," said another. "They want —their salad before dinner," gaped a third.

The more your people come here, the more you will understand Islam," said Ibrahim Ahmetoglu, 44, before making a pitch to convert the reporter. "We have nothing against the American people, just your crazy president," added Ilter Dondurmaci, 24.

Sounds about right to me.

2. They /should/ thank us. Is there anyone here who doesn't believe America deserves thanks for the positive things we've done? The diseases we've cured, the medications we donate, the refugees we take in, the dictators we stop? If we deserve blame for our failures, do we not deserve praise for our successes?

PLEASE! I'd do that when it starts flowing in both direction but that ain't happening anytime soon I recon so I can hold on to my praise for now. Every single thing you mentioned I can say we did that to, it is just your memory span that is very short and selective. Not to mention that unless you are of native american decent you are european, just very diluted thru generations from being away from the continent.

I think European governments are afraid that "We may be wrong, but at least we're trying to do something" might create vastly more problems than it solves

Try and you may fail. Do not try, and you are guaranteed to fail.

Not necessarily. Sure try and you might fail, wait and see and you may try another day.

I think that's really what the whole problem is. American's, to over generalize, like to act. Especially once we've decided there is a problem. Granted, we sometimes take a while to decide there is a problem, but once we have we want to act. When I look at the debacle that is Iraq, I think "We may be wrong, but at least we're trying to do something". It seems to me Europe isn't trying to really do anything about the things they've decided are problems.

To over simplify I'd say we do take a bit longer then you to decide on what to do. We are not into the same gung-ho lone ranger shit like you are. But things do get done, it just doesn't get done in a fashion you appreciate or (want to) understand .

The US gets a lot of crap from Europeans, but almost never gets credit for the things we do for Europe, economically, socially, culturally. Euros bitch about American cultural imperialism, and then eat at McDonalds and wear our clothes and listen to our music and watch our movies. When there's a problem - war, disease, crazy eastern european dictators killing tons of people - we're the people they call, but instead of a thank-you, what we usually get is spit on and made fun of.

Likewise, we get nothing but crap from you. So is it that strange you get back what you spat in our direction? As far as I can tell you get what you deserve.

America does vastly more good than harm on the world stage, but recieves vastly more ridicule than thanks.

Short term or long term? Current short term? I doubt it, in the long term it will even out.

[3278]

2. They /should/ thank us. Is there anyone here who doesn't believe America deserves thanks for the positive things we've done? The diseases we've cured, the medications we donate, the refugees we take in, the dictators we stop? If we deserve blame for our failures, do we not deserve praise for our successes?

PLEASE! I'd do that when it starts flowing in both direction but that ain't happening anytime soon I recon so I can hold on to my praise for now.

It does flow in both directions, lorg, and it's like you just went from being rational to being one of the fringe Euros we're all rolling our eyes at. The US doesn't stop taking in African refugees just because our President is a republican and kind of an imperialist.

Every single thing you mentioned I can say we did that to, it is just your memory span that is very short and selective.

What? What? Dude.

1. So what if you do it, too? That just means you should also get praise on the topic.

2. You have to know that the US does more good than Europe, internationally. Maybe you don't know that; I know I'd have a hard time proving it. But the sheer scale of US economics means that, even though we give a lot less per capita, we stop more dictators, give more eyedrops to Africans, and so on, than anyone else.

Not to mention that unless you are of native american decent you are european, just very diluted thru generations from being away from the continent.

Absolutely. Which is why Europe shouldn't get any praise, either, since we're all Africans.

The US gets a lot of crap from Europeans, but almost never gets credit for the things we do for Europe, economically, socially, culturally.

Likewise, we get nothing but crap from you. So is it that strange you get back what you spat in our direction? As far as I can tell you get what you deserve.

Europe gets /nothing/ but crap from America? In what way is that true?

[DV8]

Europe gets /nothing/ but crap from America? In what way is that true?

I wouldn't say "nothing but crap," but if you'd go by the opinions of people like Moo, Paul and yourself, it's really hard to find the good among all the bad. The feeling I get from a lot of the American BD'ers that like to have their voice heard is that Europeans are complacent, incompetent, indecisive, and a bunch more. There's very little positive comments regarding European politics, at least.

[3278]

"It's not just the loud, boisterous behavior," says Giovanni Spina. What gives Americans away is their fashion sense. "They wear sneakers on the street!" he said, marvelling at the gauchness of it all. "They slather on sunscreen until they glow," added a friend. "They ask for ice in their drinks," said another. "They want —their salad before dinner," gaped a third.

This is a point I'd like to make, but I'm uncertain of how best to do so. While Americans perhaps have a tendency to be ignorant of European culture because of our geographic separation from Europe, there is also perhaps a tendency toward increased tolerance of other cultures, born of the history of the last 200 years. In Europe, if an American doesn't hold his silverware the European way, he is rude; in America, if a European holds their silverware the European way...so what? [Most Americans will probably be satisfied with anything short of placing your face directly in the center of the plate and hoovering up your meal.]

Obviously, when it comes to Italians and fashion, there's going to be a strong reaction; the tenor of Europe cannot be gauged by this nation and its opinion on this issue. However, it is emblematic of a more widespread intolerance.

In regards to the volume of Americans: When I was in the Netherlands one day, I noticed that I'd never heard anyone else's stereo, from a car, or a house, or a man walking down the sidewalk with a giant boom-box. I asked Eva about it, and she pointed out - correctly - that living in such close proximity to so many other people has made the Dutch super-sensitive about volume and disturbing other people with it. America is a land of wide-open spaces, in a way Europeans simply cannot concieve of. We have forests the size of European countries, with no people in them anywhere. We are not accustomed to having to be quiet, to having to live cheek-to-jowl with thousands of other people, for two thousand years. I don't think it's "bad," I think it's different, a result of different conditions, and I think it's sad that Europeans complain about "loud Americans," while you very seldom [if ever] hear American complaints about "quiet Europeans."

[3278]

Europe gets /nothing/ but crap from America? In what way is that true?

I wouldn't say "nothing but crap," but if you'd go by the opinions of people like Moo, Paul and yourself, it's really hard to find the good among all the bad.

1. If we've gone to "nothing but crap from America," to "enough crap from people like these three guys on this one board that it's hard to find the good," then we've completely changed the subject.

2. Tell me you've never heard me say good things about Europe, or that my comments about Europe have been so overwhelmingly bad that it's hard to find the good. I don't even think that's true on the board, and it's certainly not true in general. How soon we forget.

[Paul]

Say on the front page of SST is there a topic started by a European on politics in Europe? Say when we try to start threads on Europe how many replies from Europeans do we get?

If I use DV8's standard of judging, you guys aren't intrested in talking about your own politics. Just American politics. I could drag this example of absurd slide ways thinking out even further and say that means you guys are unintresting or scared, but I'd know that was stupid.

While I primarily tout American's and their goals,values, etc...I don't recall saying Europe is some how really bad. I do say, quite often, that Europe isn't America, and that Europe quite often isn't the ally its traditionally been, nor is Europe necassarily America's friend in all things.

By the way I think Liniah is every thing wrong with American youths today. That she is insulted to be thought of as an intelligent American is whats wrong with our society. We have been stereotyped, and we believe it. I'm ashamed of Liniah and people like her.

Please note I am not asking for her removal or anything absurd like that. I just disagree with her, and her views. Having been to Europe on several occassions in a great number of countries I saw people who felt a number of ways about Americans. I never assumed to know or understand what drove them. I also never felt the need to reprsent myself as anything other than what I was, and still am.

My experiences in Europe, minus France, where on the whole pleasant. I do not wear rose colored glasses, and think that Europe is somehow mystically better or worse. There are poor people there, just like here. People over there put their pants on one leg at time, just like me.

I expect Europeans to stand up for themselves, just like I stand up for myself. I expect their nation to look out for its citizens, just like I expect my nation to do the same for me and mine. (Even people I disagree with.)

All in all I think the article only examines a minutia of life. We can all find fault if we look hard enough. Its far more difficult to find common ground, acceptance and nicities apparently.

Someday I'll get to go back to Spain again, and enjoy the beautiful people, and scenery.

[MooCow]

I wouldn't say "nothing but crap," but if you'd go by the opinions of people like Moo, Paul and yourself, it's really hard to find the good among all the bad

You mean like how I've said repeatedly that I think you guys are doing a great job governing yourselves? Yes, what a horrible opinion to have. I'll change that immediatly.

The feeling I get from a lot of the American BD'ers that like to have their voice heard is that Europeans are complacent, incompetent, indecisive, and a bunch more

Complacent, no. Incompetent, certainly not. Indecisive? Yep. That fact that Saddam remained in power for 10 years after invading another country is pretty much proof of that. Sure, we weren't doing much better, but when we decided to act you will still heming and hawing about what should be done.

Of course, it's all a matter of perspective. What you call impulsive, cowboy antics we call decisive and corageous. What you call patience, we call fear.

Say on the front page of SST is there a topic started by a European on politics in Europe? Say when we try to start threads on Europe how many replies from Europeans do we get?

This is an excellent point. I've started a number of threads looking for information on european culture, government, etc. I never get much response.

[lorg]

It does flow in both directions, lorg, and it's like you just went from being rational to being one of the fringe Euros we're all rolling our eyes at. The US doesn't stop taking in African refugees just because our President is a republican and kind of an imperialist.

From my point of view the flow seems quite one sided. Not much praise coming back over here, but as I noted we don't send that much over either. You demand respect but you don't give it, hench you can't get it by any other means then by pushing people around.

Who said anything about African refugees? I'm sure you do take in some of them just like before, just like we do. Did you think we didn't? Perhaps you take in more africans or whatever, after all as you mention in your previous posting you do have a lot of room, we have slightly less room to go around so perhaps we are not as generous as you, but I doubt that.

Every single thing you mentioned I can say we did that to, it is just your memory span that is very short and selective.

1. So what if you do it, too? That just means you should also get praise on the topic.

Which we don't get but then I don't think we asked for it nor demanded it. We just did it anyway. A good deed is its own reward so stop demanding praise and respect, if you had alterior motives for doing so that negates the praise and respect. I know 'old Europe' is just that, old, but what are you? 5 years old and we just hung your crayon picture on the fridge?

2. You have to know that the US does more good than Europe, internationally. Maybe you don't know that; I know I'd have a hard time proving it. But the sheer scale of US economics means that, even though we give a lot less per capita, we stop more dictators, give more eyedrops to Africans, and so on, than anyone else.

Never said you never did anything good. You do, unfortunatly for you that becomes totally overshadowed by all the crap you do.

You stop more dictators? You also put more of them in place or proped more of them up then the rest of us combined.

You almost have a Dr.Frankenstein form of foreign policy, you create potential future monsters for a short term benefit without a clue to consequences (which is not entirely or at all like the book but still).

The US gets a lot of crap from Europeans, but almost never gets credit for the things we do for Europe, economically, socially, culturally.

Likewise, we get nothing but crap from you. So is it that strange you get back what you spat in our direction? As far as I can tell you get what you deserve.

Europe gets /nothing/ but crap from America? In what way is that true?

OK nothing but crap was clearly hyperbolic, I could have been clearer on that point. But as soon as we don't agree with you or want to take part in carrying out your ideas or mad wims we immediately become ungreatful and unleash the cascades of crap directed at us.

I don't base my opinon on America or Americans on the people here, after all you are just a few of ~280 million likewise I assume you don't draw the same conclusions about Europe based on me (1 of ~300 million).

This is a point I'd like to make, but I'm uncertain of how best to do so. While Americans perhaps have a tendency to be ignorant of European culture because of our geographic separation from Europe, there is also perhaps a tendency toward increased tolerance of other cultures, born of the history of the last 200 years. In Europe, if an American doesn't hold his silverware the European way, he is rude; in America, if a European holds their silverware the European way...so what? [Most Americans will probably be satisfied with anything short of placing your face directly in the center of the plate and hoovering up your meal.

The geographical difference is the same in the opposite direction so draw your own conclusions there. Personally I couldn't care less how you eat your food, I wouldn't concider it rude if you didn't use the correct fork or held it wrong. But I do draw the line at licking the plate, that is reserved for cats and other animals.

In regards to the volume of Americans: When I was in the Netherlands one day, I noticed that I'd never heard anyone else's stereo, from a car, or a house, or a man walking down the sidewalk with a giant boom-box. I asked Eva about it, and she pointed out - correctly - that living in such close proximity to so many other people has made the Dutch super-sensitive about volume and disturbing other people with it. America is a land of wide-open spaces, in a way Europeans simply cannot concieve of. We have forests the size of European countries, with no people in them anywhere. We are not accustomed to having to be quiet, to having to live cheek-to-jowl with thousands of other people, for two thousand years. I don't think it's "bad," I think it's different, a result of different conditions, and I think it's sad that Europeans complain about "loud Americans," while you very seldom [if ever] hear American complaints about "quiet Europeans."

So you have large open spaces without a person in them, we got them to. But how about more densly populated areas, after all hardly all americans where born out in the middle of nowhere. You blast your stereo non stop all night long there to? I'd concider that to be quite rude.

Loud and obnoxious is bad in my book and as far as non complaining about the "quiet Europeans" MooCow more or less just did that here before when he said we don't do anything.

Say on the front page of SST is there a topic started by a European on politics in Europe? Say when we try to start threads on Europe how many replies from Europeans do we get?

I don't really recall anything such threads, non that comes to mind right now. But if you want to I'm all for that. If you feel like discussing Europolitics I'll be there, anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

As I see it we normally discus newsitems and from them discussions spawn. We currently live in a very american centric world, after all we get a large dose of news about what happens in america etc, how much of what we do comes over to the other side? If we remove things related to america, terror, iraq etc in some fashion how much is left then? I assume it won't be that much.

If I use DV8's standard of judging, you guys aren't intrested in talking about your own politics. Just American politics. I could drag this example of absurd slide ways thinking out even further and say that means you guys are unintresting or scared, but I'd know that was stupid.

If you want to discuss European news I'd be more then happy to do it with you, bring it on!

While I primarily tout American's and their goals,values, etc...I don't recall saying Europe is some how really bad. I do say, quite often, that Europe isn't America, and that Europe quite often isn't the ally its traditionally been, nor is Europe necassarily America's friend in all things.

Isn't that just a another way of saying you suck. First you state that like you american goals and values and then you say Europe isn't America, ie it is not good but infact bad.

The relationship have been changing for a long time, it has always been in constant change. Once you where at our beck and call, we helped you. Then the situation became more neutral, then you helped us a bit and now it is going back to a more neutral stance. Where we might do things together if they are something we both agree on, but the period of us being you bitch like the last half century or so that is gone. So you might as well get over that right now cause we ain't going back, the master and servant game is over. We are going to do what is best for us just like you do what you think is best for you and it would appear they are not always the same thing any longer.

Someday I'll get to go back to Spain again, and enjoy the beautiful people, and scenery.

Someday I'll go back to the USA to, but not until you (as a nation) calm down.

[lorg]

You mean like how I've said repeatedly that I think you guys are doing a great job governing yourselves? Yes, what a horrible opinion to have. I'll change that immediatly.

That is more of an insult then praise, it is down right patronizing.

That fact that Saddam remained in power for 10 years after invading another country is pretty much proof of that. Sure, we weren't doing much better, but when we decided to act you will still heming and hawing about what should be done.

Your selective memory kicks into high gear here as you somehow forget how you helped prop up that little "mad dictator" so he could stay in power for all those decades before that event.

Of course, it's all a matter of perspective. What you call impulsive, cowboy antics we call decisive and corageous. What you call patience, we call fear.

Absolutely. I do agree with that.

This is an excellent point. I've started a number of threads looking for information on european culture, government, etc. I never get much response.

Don't recall any of them. What where they about?

[MooCow]

So you have large open spaces without a person in them, we got them to. But how about more densly populated areas, after all hardly all americans where born out in the middle of nowhere. You blast your stereo non stop all night long there to? I'd concider that to be quite rude.

Yes they do.

Loud and obnoxious is bad in my book and as far as non complaining about the "quiet Europeans" MooCow more or less just did that here before when he said we don't do anything.

Ummm..... I'm not sure what not acting has to do with being quiet, but ok. whatever.

[Twisted Sister]

Paul, I think you underestimate the conflicting sense of awe along with the eyeball rolling condencension that your country is viewed in. Or at least you often don't hear the gasps of wonder as you're pouncing on those that find reason to snigger behind their hands for a moment.

As far as I see it there are many many great things about America, and Americans, and there are many terrible things, the same can be said the world over. Sometimes I am ashamed to be British, sometimes I am proud. In relation to this article [because some of my post has to be ;o) ] mainly I am ashamed when I see group of hammered, loud English men staggering around the city on a Saturday night, I am ashamed to see half-dressed English girls with puke in their hair, passed out at the bottom of the stairs leading up to the dancefloor. Why? Because people will think we are all like that.

Everyone is negatively stereotyped in some way, so don't think you're special. Liniah's finding out now exactly what the sterotypes are, and having to fight them. . She should be lauded for that, not dismissed. From reading her lj I think she is finding as much wrong with the US as right

Your culture is more a mish mash of other influences than anyother, and in that very fact becomes the most interesting one to discuss, especially as there are so many of you 'Meericans around on BD to offer the various opinions and experiences that help bring debate to life.

You say that you have positive experiances in Europe, minus France. I know that for whatever reason, everyone has something against the French,but I am trying to find a Time article that goes into how close the US is in terms of culture with ze Froggies. As soon as I find it. I'll send it over to you.

Ok - you can go back to the topic now.

[MooCow]

Your selective memory kicks into high gear here as you somehow forget how you helped prop up that little "mad dictator" so he could stay in power for all those decades before that event.

Huh? How do you figure? At what point did I make the statement "America did not put Saddam in power"? Certainly we put him power. We took him out of power. What's your point?

That is more of an insult then praise, it is down right patronizing

How? I'm confused. I think you're looking for insults where there are none.

Don't recall any of them. What where they about?

Hrm.... I recall one on european music. I was asking if there was anything similar to Country Music, in the sense that Country is very US-Centric, with lots of patriotic songs. I think the extent of the responses I got were "Nope. Nothing like that."

I also started one regarding European equivalents of the USO. Got zero responses there.

Those are the only ones I can think of, but I know there have been others.

[FlameBlade]

Y'all should place yourselves in others' shoes before saying about each other's countries. I mean, like, live in other countries first for 6 months.

I'm serious. Visiting isn't enough. You only see the sights. If you live in other country, you start to hear things, and start to see their side, and you start to understand how their system works or doesn't work.

Based on long conversation I had with Liniah about the topic of how her perspective of US has changed since she moved to Europe, and the revelation is quite surprising.

1. Liniah hasn't changed that much, yet at the same time, she has changed.

2. The politics here and over there is completely different. Liberals in Europe makes liberals in US look like conservatives.

3. and many more. I'll have to take some time and remember.

But in general, you all have to take some time to be in others' shoes...for 6 months. Then give it back. No stealing it and running it away leaving someone else without shoes.

On irrevelant tangent, reading newspapers in Canada can be quite an eyeopener.

[MooCow]

Y'all should place yourselves in others' shoes before saying about each other's countries. I mean, like, live in other countries first for 6 months

I'd love to. Unfortuantly, CEs are too stupid to learn a foreign language. Europe has some very well respected Transportation Institutes, but none of them speak english (And I can't learn Danish/Dutch/German/etc).

[Johnny the Bull]

2. They /should/ thank us. Is there anyone here who doesn't believe America deserves thanks for the positive things we've done? The diseases we've cured, the medications we donate, the refugees we take in, the dictators we stop? If we deserve blame for our failures, do we not deserve praise for our successes?

That's what's wrong with the Europeans.

[socialist rant]We do thank you. Every day you make a fuck ton of money off us. If you want more than my hard earned cash, kindly grab a spoon and have a mouthful of my ass. [/socialist rant]

But tangenting, that article is a crock of shit. What it boils down to is this. Yes there are differences between American and 'European' culture. Yes, those differences often lead to a clash of cultures. No, you shouldn't be ashamed of being an American in Europe. That's crazy talk. No American /really/ needs to pretend to be Canadian to get by. The only people that have to do that are the Poms when they head to France.

[lorg]

Huh? How do you figure? At what point did I make the statement "America did not put Saddam in power"? Certainly we put him power. We took him out of power. What's your point?

While not you but 3278 did mention as one of americas achivements that you guys took out more dictators then we do. Well you also put them there and keep them around to a larger extent then us. One might add in recent history here since in the past we more or less did the same.

So no you, MooCow, did not make that statement. My point was that even thou you "save the world" from some evil dictators you also put them there and keep them in place.

That is more of an insult then praise, it is down right patronizing

How? I'm confused. I think you're looking for insults where there are none.

My bad. It sounded somewhat insulting when I read it, in the context of reading all the other post at the same time.

Don't recall any of them. What where they about?

Hrm.... I recall one on european music. I was asking if there was anything similar to Country Music, in the sense that Country is very US-Centric, with lots of patriotic songs. I think the extent of the responses I got were "Nope. Nothing like that."

I also started one regarding European equivalents of the USO. Got zero responses there.

Those are the only ones I can think of, but I know there have been others.

Euro country music, doesn't exists that I am aware of. There are people here that listen to american country music. The closest things to this would be various forms of folk music or dance music (not to be confused with popular dance music) but instead music to dance tango, waltz, foxtrot etc etc. But in both these cases it is rarely patriotic songs but more of lost love and such.

Speaking from a swedish perspective there are groups that do music that glorify our past, a lot of them also have a tendency to fall into white power music and such. Then there are the once that just play a lot of old instruments. Havn't heard any good once lately. Hope that answered that question.

About a USO, don't know. We don't have one that I am aware of, there was one place in town when I did my service where you could go to and play some games (table tennis, pool), watch a bit of tv and they had snacks. Is it something like that? But they don't do Bob Hope kinda entertainment. But that could have a lot to do with the size of the military, deployment etc.

[Twisted Sister]

The only people that have to do that are the Poms when they head to France.

We don't pretend to be colonials, we just sneer at the French for being...well...French. They sneer back. It's a mutally respected derision we have for each other.

[TLM]

I'd love to. Unfortuantly, CEs are too stupid to learn a foreign language. Europe has some very well respected Transportation Institutes, but none of them speak english (And I can't learn Danish/Dutch/German/etc).

Flat out wrong on all counts.

Point the first: Most Europeans have compulsory English lessons from about grade-school and up (here it used to be the 4th grade), and a choice between two other languages, AFAIK French, German or Spanish. This means that any given European is practically guaranteed to at least understand English, unless you have an outrageous accent, like a scotsman or something, and one other language. I've managed to make myself understood in all the western countries of Europe I've been, (France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, UK) and my German is fucking atrocious. Not necessarily well understood at first, especially not in France, but I've managed to get by with a little (dare I say it?) patience.

Point the second: You can learn a second language if you bother. Unless you mean "shouldn't the whole world be speaking English by now?" in which case I admit you have a point.

One final note. Don't ever, ever expect a Frenchman to speak good english, or a Brit to speak good french, even if they can. They just won't give each other the satisfaction. [/i]

[Johnny the Bull]

The only people that have to do that are the Poms when they head to France.

We don't pretend to be colonials, we just sneer at the French for being...well...French. They sneer back. It's a mutally respected derision we have for each other.

Yeah, YOU try and get service in English when they think you're a pom. I am one but covert - living in Australia for so long has given me a god-awful okker accent - and its better for all concerned if they don't know the truth.

[Daki]

Small intejection from an American here... I make it a point to learn at least basic customs before I go visit another country just so I don't look like a bufoon when I'm there (or at least less of one). This usually means learning a small amount of the language and customs for common activities like dining.

[MooCow]

Flat out wrong on all counts.

My appologies, I should have put a smily there. I did a search some time ago, and couldn't find any reputable european universities that had Civil Engineering classes in english. Being as it's well known that Civil Engineers are stupid, I didn't find this terribly surprising.

Point the second: You can learn a second language if you bother.

Well, that's debatable. There are a number of studies that show that the brain paths that handle language actually decrease with age. You specifically noted that you begin learning english in grade school. Here in the US, foreign language classes don't ussually begin until high school.

I studied Spanish for two years, and still only ended up being able to get the basic gist of children's books. Today, I can occasionally get a basic idea of what a sign says.

To learn a language welll enough to be able to take engineering courses in it? Forget about it. Not gonna happen.

[mrmooky]

Okay, a few points from someone who's been to neither Europe nor America (and whose opinion is therefore entirely balanced ):

1. The first article states that anti-Americanism has risen in the last two years, and is probably related to the whole War on Terror thing. And yet, most of the instances of anti-Americanism mentioned in the article came from Italy and the UK, which are both members of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq. Make of that what you will.

2. Any criticism of Bush by the French left can easily be more than countered by the gentle reminder that Jean-Marie Le Pen came close to being their President. And that Chirac is a crook.

3. It's a gross oversimplification to make a distinction between Europe and America along political left-right lines. America doesn't have anything like the Far Right movement they have in some European countries. What's the percentage of the Italian population that says they'd like another Mussolini in government? Something like 30%. Bah. A one-dimensional political spectrum is entirely inadequate, anyway.

[lorg]

My appologies, I should have put a smily there. I did a search some time ago, and couldn't find any reputable european universities that had Civil Engineering classes in english. Being as it's well known that Civil Engineers are stupid, I didn't find this terribly surprising.

So what you are saying is that there isn't a single reputable university in the whole of Great Britain?

I'm sure they get that warm fussy feeling all over from hearing that. I doubt you looked very hard.

They are even available in Sweden, but then perhaps we are not reputable either by your standards.

KTH; Engineering degrees in english at the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden. I attend class there even thou not to get a degree in Civili Engineering.

On a matter of interest; what exactly is a reputable university as far as you are concerned?

Well, that's debatable. There are a number of studies that show that the brain paths that handle language actually decrease with age. You specifically noted that you begin learning english in grade school. Here in the US, foreign language classes don't ussually begin until high school.

Mind over matter. Time to apply yourself.

To learn a language welll enough to be able to take engineering courses in it? Forget about it. Not gonna happen.

That as noted would be a bit harder then normal conversations.

[MooCow]

So what you are saying is that there isn't a single reputable university in the whole of Great Britain?

You know, for some reason I never think of Britain as being part of Europe. Probably the whole not being connected to the mainland thing. My bad.

I doubt you looked very hard

Well I did, so you'd be wrong.

KTH; Engineering degrees in english at the Royal Institute of Technology

Cool, now I know.

On a matter of interest; what exactly is a reputable university as far as you are concerned?

One that is reputable. You seem to think I said there were no reputable universities in Europe. Never said that.

[TLM]

Flat out wrong on all counts.

My appologies, I should have put a smily there.

So should I, probably. No harm no foul?

Point the second: You can learn a second language if you bother.

Well, that's debatable. There are a number of studies that show that the brain paths that handle language actually decrease with age. You specifically noted that you begin learning english in grade school. Here in the US, foreign language classes don't ussually begin until high school.

This is true, not to mention studies that indicate that language is also something that you have to "train" your ears to understand properly, and this is a lot easier when you're young. The reason so many Japanese and Chinese use L instead of R (as in "flied lice") is because they honestly can't tell the difference between the two sounds. Their ears have been set to hear certain sounds and not others. It's actually a lot more complicated than that, of course, but it's a nice, simple explanation that I can understand.

On the subject of learning a second language in schools, I think everyone should learn a second language as early as possible. If nothing else, learning to speak Spanish in grade school could be a real boon to the average US citizen in a few years, what with all the mexicans you apparently have coming across the border...

[Edit] On an entirely unrelated topic... The thing between the Brits and the French? Norwegians and Swedes have something very similar. We dislike them for trying to keep us in the damned union in 1905, they can't figure out why we left. Oh... and they're probably a bit pissed about losing out on all the oil revenue. Anyway, it was all Napoleons fault, really, and Napoleon was... well, gee. He was French. [/edit]

[MooCow]

Mind over matter. Time to apply yourself

That's a stupid statement by the way. Really, it's the kind of thing I'd say.

Besides which, why should I bother to learn another language? There would be absolutely no profit in it for me.

[lorg]

On a matter of interest; what exactly is a reputable university as far as you are concerned?

One that is reputable. You seem to think I said there were no reputable universities in Europe. Never said that.

No, no. I just wanted to know what you thought made a university reputable. Some examples of Universities that you do think are reputable (and why), perhaps some that you think arn't etc.

Besides which, why should I bother to learn another language? There would be absolutely no profit in it for me.

Don't you ever learn anything that can't turn a profit for you? How do you know learning a new language won't be profitable until you know it? Perhaps speaking a new language opens new doors etc.

[Edit] On an entirely unrelated topic... The thing between the Brits and the French? Norwegians and Swedes have something very similar. We dislike them for trying to keep us in the damned union in 1905, they can't figure out why we left. Oh... and they're probably a bit pissed about losing out on all the oil revenue. Anyway, it was all Napoleons fault, really, and Napoleon was... well, gee. He was French. [/edit]

I can only confirm that this is indeed the case. I don't know if it as bad as the English-French one. But it does exist, we also have a similar one with Finland and Denmark. Don't know which one is the worst, it is probably the one with Norway, after all we don't have as many jokes on their behalfs as we do have with the norwegians.

[MooCow]

No, no. I just wanted to know what you thought made a university reputable. Some examples of Universities that you do think are reputable (and why), perhaps some that you think arn't etc.

I'd have to do the searchs again. I based it off of the impression I got from reading Transportation Journals on cutting edge research being done, and what universities were putting it out.

Don't you ever learn anything that can't turn a profit for you?

Why would I?

How do you know learning a new language won't be profitable until you know it?

Because I can look at the world around me, and see that it wouldn't be of any use. At least not enough use to warrant the several years of time, effort, and money required to learn the language.

Perhaps speaking a new language opens new doors etc

None that I wish to go through.

[3278]

From my point of view the flow seems quite one sided. Not much praise coming back over here, but as I noted we don't send that much over either.

I don't know how true that is. I have no way of knowing how much praise Americans offer to Europeans for the positive actions they take on the world stage. If that praise is not in proportion to the positive actions, I believe it should be.

You demand respect but you don't give it, hench you can't get it by any other means then by pushing people around.

I assume by "you," you mean, "America," since I praise Europe [when I feel some trait of Europe deserves praise], and I [usually] don't push people around [literally]. But if you mean "America," the nation doesn't demand respect, and does give it. And the amount of "pushing around" our nation does is vastly overstated by people who dislike recent foreign policy. As has been noted, the view of America was much more positive before the recent actions in Iraq, which indicates a sudden rise in anti-Americanism based on a single armed conflict, which is absurd.

I'm sure you do take in some of them just like before, just like we do. Did you think we didn't?

No. Please, listen: America does lots and lots of good things. I'm not comparing America to anyone else here. I'm simply saying that, while there are things we do that some people don't like, there are vastly more things we do that people do like, but no one talks about them, because that's not any fun. America-bashing is fun for people, even though it is out of proportion to the actual amount of total harm our nation causes.

Never said you never did anything good. You do, unfortunatly for you that becomes totally overshadowed by all the crap you do.

Come on. How can you possibly believe this? Do you even believe this? That America does more harm than good on the international level? On what timescale? The last five years? Ten? Twenty? Fifty? One hundred? Two? In what way? Do you mean just the American government, or America? There's a significant difference.

I don't base my opinon on America or Americans on the people here, after all you are just a few of ~280 million likewise I assume you don't draw the same conclusions about Europe based on me (1 of ~300 million).

I was thinking about this last night. There's no way I can justifiably talk about "Europeans," any more than anyone can talk about "Americans" in one breath. There is a huge spectrum of opinion, and we're talking about some tendencies among each group of people. This conversation is, in many ways, just too abstract to be meaningful. When I talk about Europeans in this thread, in the back of my mind, I know I'm really just talking about continental western Europe; Britain is /very/ different from the western continent when it comes to opinions about America and American policies, as is Bosnia. So I apologize for the incredible overgeneralization on my part; in my defense, "tendency among continental western europeans" is a lot longer than "Europeans."

So you have large open spaces without a person in them, we got them to.

Remember when I said that Europeans can't concieve of the amount of space we have? I meant it. You cannot. You, personally, I believe, cannot, particularly if you're comparing your amount of space to ours. [Although...which nation do you live in again? If I recall correctly, your country, at least, has more than most.]

Loud and obnoxious is bad in my book and as far as non complaining about the "quiet Europeans" MooCow more or less just did that here before when he said we don't do anything.

I think there is a profound difference between a political lack of action on the part of national leaders in Europe and European tourists who don't yell very much.

I don't really recall anything such threads, non that comes to mind right now.

We know. That's the problem. They exist, but no one recalls them, or replies to them. There is virtually no interest here in talking about European politics. Americans don't know enough to talk about it [generally], and Europeans don't think it's nearly as fun as having another go at bashing America. Take a look at the threads started by Europeans about politics or national or international issues. Take a look at the threads started by you personally. Compare how many are about European politics, and how many are outright America-bashing [or only marginally concealed America-thwacking].

While I primarily tout American's and their goals,values, etc...I don't recall saying Europe is some how really bad. I do say, quite often, that Europe isn't America, and that Europe quite often isn't the ally its traditionally been, nor is Europe necassarily America's friend in all things.

Isn't that just a another way of saying you suck. First you state that like you american goals and values and then you say Europe isn't America, ie it is not good but infact bad.

That's a horrible and unnecessary assumption. Just because X is good and Y isn't X doesn't mean Y isn't good.