Newsweek: Innocents Abroad

[Liniah]

Ok, a few things to say here.

I also never felt the need to reprsent myself as anything other than what I was, and still am.

First off, I'm not representing myself as something other than I am. I have never lied about my nationality and never refused to admit my nationality or anything like that.

Having been to Europe on several occassions in a great number of countries I saw people who felt a number of ways about Americans.

This is still true, but I do think some things have changed within the past few years as well. Someone mentioned, in another thread I think, that anti-American stuff has definately increased over the past several years. I mean, shit, I had a guest lecture at school this semester which was mentioning some ways of how to bring down the American Empire.

By the way I think Liniah is every thing wrong with American youths today. That she is insulted to be thought of as an intelligent American is whats wrong with our society. We have been stereotyped, and we believe it. I'm ashamed of Liniah and people like her.

I'm not insulted to be though of as an intelligent American. I'm insulted to be though of as the American stereo-type that many people have. There is a difference, and a very important one, so don't ignore it. I certainly don't believe that I'm the 'American stereo type'. If I did, I think I'd shoot myself in the head. So, what do be believe? We believe that we've been stereotyped or we believe that we are the stereotype or what? So, why exactly are you ashamed of me, Paul? What shameful things have I done? It's shameful that people who have anti-American views didn't percieve me as American and that I was happy about that? It's like saying "I hate people born in May." "I'm born in May." "Oh, really? You didn't seem like you were born in May cause I don't hate you." "Oh, well, that's cool. I'm glad I don't fit your impression of people born in May."

[TLM]

How about we look at this rationally? And just to spare you all the effort, I'll have a go at myself here: "Oh no, that fucktard, liberal, European, commie anarchist bastard is going to be 'reasonable' again. Fuck him. We're always reasonable! It's the Europeans who are unreasonable" And from the other side: "You fucking US-supporting traitor. Fuck you! You can't reason with these people, and you're only deluding yourself if you think they'll listen. They haven't in the past, and they won't start now".

That having been said...

Pauls post is one of the most constructive thus far, imo.What he's saying is, if I understand it correctly, that previously, the goals of the US and Western Europe coincided pretty nicely, and for a time, it was good. Now that that situation is over, the US and Europe are, quite rightly, parting ways politically. The US has different goals than Europe, and vice versa.

Other than that, he's saying we're all individuals. In fact, I think I'll quote it.

My experiences in Europe, minus France, where on the whole pleasant. I do not wear rose colored glasses, and think that Europe is somehow mystically better or worse. There are poor people there, just like here. People over there put their pants on one leg at time, just like me.

I expect Europeans to stand up for themselves, just like I stand up for myself. I expect their nation to look out for its citizens, just like I expect my nation to do the same for me and mine. (Even people I disagree with.)

All in all I think the article only examines a minutia of life. We can all find fault if we look hard enough. Its far more difficult to find common ground, acceptance and nicities apparently.

Someday I'll get to go back to Spain again, and enjoy the beautiful people, and scenery.

As for discussing US policy and disliking it, weeell... The US is the sole remaining Superpower in the world, and the current administration is well aware of that fact. It's commonly held that an 800 pound gorilla sleeps wherever it likes. When there were two of them they kept each other in check, but then one of them died. Now, quite a few governemnts are worried that the sole remaining gorilla will start smashing the furniture and crockery, not to mention eating all the food in the cupboard (it's amazing how far you can stretch one of these things, isn't it? ).

"You're either with us or against us". I think that sums it up pretty well.

[MooCow]

The US is the sole remaining Superpower in the world, and the current administration is well aware of that fact.

See, that's my whole problem with Europe. Europe needs to become an undevided superpower in it's own right, and challenge the US.

The US will not stop until someone makes us. This is the way it is, and should be.

[TLM]

Following that logic, the US will never allow Europe to become a superpower.

[MooCow]

Following that logic, the US will never allow Europe to become a superpower

Damnit, who let you look at our play book?

Seriously, I think we would. We aren't exactly imperialistic dictators by intention. I suspect that if Europe had our kind of power you'd be running around the world making sure it worked the way /you/ wanted it as well. (Now it might work to, but that's beside the point).

It's like walking down the street and you find a $50 bill lying on the sidewalk. Technically, you should turn that into the police. But how many people do that? Unless someone is standing next to you saying "now be good", most people will take everything they can. Countries are the same way.

[Liniah]

Everyone is negatively stereotyped in some way, so don't think you're special. Liniah's finding out now exactly what the sterotypes are, and having to fight them. She should be lauded for that, not dismissed. From reading her lj I think she is finding as much wrong with the US as right

Oh, and somewhere, someone else (might have been 32) said something about American being more accepting of others or some such. I would agree with that. Eventhough it does cause plenty of problems in the US, I think it's really good that America is such a diverse place. It helps with perspective. In Europe, it's neighbor-to-neighbor relations a lot of times, but even then, they're not all that diverse. (Though, don't go telling Danes they might as well be Germans...they won't take too kindly to that.)

Flat out wrong on all counts....

No, he's not. Sure, Jo-20-something on the street can speak English in all these countries, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to get a job there. Plus, remember, the younger people get, the better english they tend to speak. 'Getting by' during traveling is much, much different than getting a carear and living there.

I did a search some time ago, and couldn't find any reputable european universities that had Civil Engineering classes in english.

Yeah, I may have to come back to the US for my PhD. There just aren't enough options for high level education for English-only speakers here.

I studied Spanish for two years, and still only ended up being able to get the basic gist of children's books.

Two years? Bah! I studied Spanish for about 6 years and I completely suck ass at it. Take that! Nyah.

Mind over matter. Time to apply yourself.

I really hate that attitude.

If nothing else, learning to speak Spanish in grade school could be a real boon to the average US citizen in a few years, what with all the mexicans you apparently have coming across the border...

Which is also why many people don't want to learn Spanish. It's a hot issue of 'well, this is America and if they come here, they should learn to speak English' vs. 'well, they're not, so learning Spanish would be helpful'. It goes round and round. The US doesn't have an official language, though, does it? I heard that somewhere.

Norwegians and Swedes have something very similar....etc

I can only confirm that this is indeed the case.

Yeah, but you all still do have the whole Scandinavian thing going on too. I see that as being a quite different situation. (Did you see all those 'Nordic Victory' signs when Denmark and Sweden tied 2-2 in football...you know, by coincidence getting teh exact score they needed to send Italy home. ) Anyway, though you have jokes, you still all seem very close-nit as well. I mean, I heard here that the Norwegians found out some of the jokes that Danes have about them and so they were routing for Sweden in football. From my perspective, the three nations still get along quite well even though the 'attitudes' that the people asume when at home in order to define themselves. (Gah, I hope this is making sense.)

None that I wish to go through.

MooCow, the close-minded, seeing into the future Cow

There's no way I can justifiably talk about "Europeans," any more than anyone can talk about "Americans" in one breath. There is a huge spectrum of opinion, and we're talking about some tendencies among each group of people. This conversation is, in many ways, just too abstract to be meaningful.

I think this is an EXTREMELY important point. I think this is where people (on both "sides") run into problems many times.

[Liniah]

See, that's my whole problem with Europe. Europe needs to become an undevided superpower in it's own right, and challenge the US.

That's nice, but remember that Europe is not one country. It's not that simple.

[MooCow]

MooCow, the close-minded, seeing into the future Cow

Ya damned right!

That's nice, but remember that Europe is not one country. It's not that simple

Nor was the US always the unified federal power house it is today. Times change. We changed, Europe can too. First Europe unites, then Africa, Asia, then we can start unifying each of those bigger conglomerates.... eventually we'll be ready to go piss off other races in the galaxy!

[TLM]

[glow][Warning! Rant ahead!!][/glow]

OK, Moo, here's my answer: The US administrations have been too fucking wishy-washy. There is no comprehensive approach to the use of US power that I can see (maybe you can, I dunno). Now, your current president has a few people in his administration who's pushing for a "New American Century". The following is for their benefit:

The US needs to decide wether or not it wants to be an empire or not. As it stands, the US has the economic influence, the diplomatic clout, the military might and the scientific advantage to make "world conquest" feasible. All it lacks is a comprehensive policy implementing this as a goal. As it is, one administration overturns what the previous one did and it lacks an overall comprehensive direction. Clinton followed the "talk softly and carry a big stick" approach. Bush 2.0 is using the big stick for the most part, but is starting to fall back on diplomacy.

Would you fucking decide, once and for all?!

Russia has a broken spine, China and Europe aren't ready for a confrontation (yet), Africa is a bloody shambles, and the Middle and Near East is volatile. There are no serious challengers to a US hegemony anywhere. All you politicians need to do is:

A) Decide that world domination is the goal
B) decide on one single approach
C) Go forth and conquer

Don't keep us waiting is suspense. Either do it, or don't do it. But please, stop with the fucking around. I think everyone is a bit sick and tired of being "kept in suspense". Want an exmple? Great Britain. They didn't sit on their asses, no, they bloody fucking well decided they wanted an Empire and they went out and carved it out of everyone's hide. They never wavered in what to use; diplomacy when appropriate and a gun when needed.

So, mr Bush: If you want your "New American Century", you come right out and fucking say it. Don't give me all this crap about "humanitarian concerns" or "liberty and democracy". That never, ever mattered in this kind of politics except as a smokescreen, and even if you believe it, no-one else will. Europeans used that as an excuse all through the 1800's up to the mid 1950's.

And stop fucking whining! "Our allies don't respect us!" "France has betrayed us!" Of course France betrayed you! Of course some of your allies turned on you! They were Empires themselves once, and they have no intention of being part of someone else's. And you sound surprised that this is the case?! So stop your whining. You said you would go it alone if you had to, now put your fucking money where your mouth is! Did you think the "New American Century" would just spontaneously materialize!? It's not going to happen. If you want it, prepare to fight for it.

But don't EVER FUCKING AGAIN spoil my fun by looking like you're finally getting off your ass and putting words into action and then just stop! You have Afghanistan and Iraq... and you STOP!?! You should have taken Syria, crushed Iran, whipped Saudi Arabia, and ravaged Egypt! For fucking STARTERS!

I WANT A WAR OF CONQUEST, YOU ASSHOLE!!

End Rant

Glad I got that off my chest. Now... Where were we?

[MooCow]

I love you man.

[TLM]

Norwegians and Swedes have something very similar....etc

I can only confirm that this is indeed the case.

Yeah, but you all still do have the whole Scandinavian thing going on too. I see that as being a quite different situation. (Did you see all those 'Nordic Victory' signs when Denmark and Sweden tied 2-2 in football...you know, by coincidence getting teh exact score they needed to send Italy home. ) Anyway, though you have jokes, you still all seem very close-nit as well. I mean, I heard here that the Norwegians found out some of the jokes that Danes have about them and so they were routing for Sweden in football. From my perspective, the three nations still get along quite well even though the 'attitudes' that the people asume when at home in order to define themselves. (Gah, I hope this is making sense.)

Yeah I know what you mean. See, it's like this; As a rule, Swedes and Norwegians and Danes dislike each other in a friendly, derisive manner, but don't nobody fucking ever try to join in the fun. We'll stick together then because while we Norwegians may not like Swedes or Danes, they're our Swedes and Danes we don't like!

There's no way I can justifiably talk about "Europeans," any more than anyone can talk about "Americans" in one breath. There is a huge spectrum of opinion, and we're talking about some tendencies among each group of people. This conversation is, in many ways, just too abstract to be meaningful.

I think this is an EXTREMELY important point. I think this is where people (on both "sides") run into problems many times.

Very much with the agreement.

[FlakJacket]

See, that's my whole problem with Europe. Europe needs to become an undevided superpower in it's own right, and challenge the US.

Quite frankly I think that China has a better chance of becoming a rival superpower to the US than Europe does any time in the forseeable future.

[Salvation122]

Following that logic, the US will never allow Europe to become a superpower.

Europe doesn't want to become a superpower.

[MooCow]

Quite frankly I think that China has a better chance of becoming a rival superpower to the US than Europe does any time in the forseeable future.

Awesome. That'll give us an excuse to start shooting up the slanty eyed little chinks.

[Paul]

I'll try and go in order, which may mean I cover some things twice, or maybe things won't always seem to flow as seamlessly as they might otherwise would.

Just to be sure I have put this first. Just so no on misunderstands me, and I think people understand this, but I am being cautious-I like Liniah. I don't dislike her, or think she is a bad person. I simply disagree with her in some areas. (We agree quite nicely in some areas.)

This is an excellent point. I've started a number of threads looking for information on european culture, government, etc. I never get much response.

Not many of the threads started on Europe get many replies from Europeans. I don't recall a thread about Australia at all, even though we have what I see as a pretty large number of Aussies on board.

I don't really recall anything such threads, non that comes to mind right now. But if you want to I'm all for that. If you feel like discussing Europolitics I'll be there, anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

I'll keep that in mind!

As I see it we normally discuss news items and from them discussions spawn. We currently live in a very American centric world, after all we get a large dose of news about what happens in America etc, how much of what we do comes over to the other side? If we remove things related to America, terror, Iraq etc in some fashion how much is left then? I assume it won't be that much.

Hmm I've always felt the only limits on our conversations here are the ones we impose. I'd happily discuss nearly anything involving history-of which Europe, as a whole, has dominated most of.

I'd also welcome more discussion on Europe, but I honestly don't where to begin. America is easy for me. I live here. Europe is harder.

Isn't that just a another way of saying you suck. First you state that like you american goals and values and then you say Europe isn't America, ie it is not good but infact bad.

No! Let me apologize if thats the feel you get. TLM hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. America is changing its role in the world, just like European nations are as well. We're different-but different is no indication of good or bad, right or wrong.

I think the answer to quote Deev, is somewhere in the middle. Americans do bad things. Europeans do bad things. They both do good things. Why they do either is where we vary somewhat.

Does that make sense?

Paul, I think you underestimate the conflicting sense of awe along with the eyeball rolling condencension that your country is viewed in. Or at least you often don't hear the gasps of wonder as you're pouncing on those that find reason to snigger behind their hands for a moment

Yeah I agree. I would after all, I am an American Nationalist. I see the good in my nation. Add in that i don't have a real regular contact with the pulse of European politics,and what not, you're probably more on the mark than I would like to admit.

Everyone is negatively stereotyped in some way, so don't think you're special.

Oh I don't.

Liniah's finding out now exactly what the sterotypes are, and having to fight them. . She should be lauded for that, not dismissed.

I don't dismiss her, and to be honest I hadn't thought of it in that way. I didn't, and still kind of have a hard time seeing her as breaking stereotypes-but I can't deny thats possiblely true. (In fact is at least likely to be true at soem level.)

I've never outright dismissed her, or at least I don't think I have, and if I did sorry! I may differ with her in areas, or any of you in areas, but I also never take it for granted that I can learn from all of you.

You say that you have positive experiances in Europe...

Total aside here. I love SPAIN! We may continue...

...minus France. I know that for whatever reason, everyone has something against the French,but I am trying to find a Time article that goes into how close the US is in terms of culture with ze Froggies. As soon as I find it. I'll send it over to you.

I'd love to read it.

France was dirty, and I mean nasty dirty. Filth in the streets, rude people, even to each other. It was crumbling and over priced, and the few sights I wanted to see were crowded and just somehow not as nice as they were in say Portugal or Britain. Even Albania managed to be a nicer place to visit.

Sorry for the length peoples.

First off, I'm not representing myself as something other than I am. I have never lied about my nationality and never refused to admit my nationality or anything like that.

Actually that wasn't aimed at you Lin, sorry if you thought it was. That was more or less aimed at the idea introduced in the article of Americans who hide their nationality while overseas.

I would never do that. I don't see you as the type to do it either. Sorry for any confusion.

So, why exactly are you ashamed of me, Paul?

Well initially you posted this:

I take it as a compliment when Europeans don't think I'm American. Sure, I am American, but I don't act like the steryo-typical American, which I consider a very good thing. When people do call me American here, I tend to take it as an insult.

Anyone whose initial reaction is to be insulted or ashamed in that situation is what bothers me. Their, in my opinion, buying into the stereotype. Perpetuating it. And thats wrong.

That you're happy to not be perceived as an American bothers me. I don't see in it the same manner as you.

[FlakJacket]

Even Albania managed to be a nicer place to visit.

Well that's nice.

[Van Der Litreb]

We'll stick together then because while we Norwegians may not like Swedes or Danes, they're our Swedes and Danes we don't like!

Damn right.

Europe doesn't want to become a superpower.

Oh. Well, thank you for clarifying that.

... and I mean nasty dirty. Filth in the streets, rude people, even to each other. It was crumbling and over priced, and the few sights I wanted to see were crowded ...

It's New York City!

[Serious Paul]

Heh-and Los Angelos.

[Liniah]

It's New York City!

So true!

[DV8]

France was dirty, and I mean nasty dirty. Filth in the streets, rude people, even to each other. It was crumbling and over priced, and the few sights I wanted to see were crowded and just somehow not as nice as they were in say Portugal or Britain.

Any place in France in particular, because that view of France, to me, only applies to certain parts of Paris.

Europe doesn't want to become a superpower.

Oh. Well, thank you for clarifying that.

Yeah, I was very happy to have that cleared up, myself.

It's New York City!

So true!

Such nonsense!

[lorg]

I compacted all my replies into one post so scroll around ... If you asked or said something durring the last 24h or so it should be here, somewhere, possibly.

Not many of the threads started on Europe get many replies from Europeans. I don't recall a thread about Australia at all, even though we have what I see as a pretty large number of Aussies on board.

Hmmm what is the american-aussie-euro ratio here? An approximation will be fine.

I'd also welcome more discussion on Europe, but I honestly don't where to begin. America is easy for me. I live here. Europe is harder.

True. I think America becomes the "common" ground of discussion simply cause we get american news and you get somewhat less of euro news. Just like non of us really get news from South America or Africa and can have any kind of real discussions about them. In the case of Africa they are more or less limited to that they are either starving or killing eachother and whom is to blame for it if anyone.

So I instruct you to go read the euro section of news.bbc.co.uk on a bi-daily basis or so. While not indepth in to every country it gives a nice overview.

France was dirty, and I mean nasty dirty. Filth in the streets, rude people, even to each other. It was crumbling and over priced, and the few sights I wanted to see were crowded and just somehow not as nice as they were in say Portugal or Britain.

Not many french people here right? OK I guess it is safe then. France is the euro equivilant of the USA. All things mentioned here can apply to them to. They also think to highly of themselves and their achivements. While americans might not be rude like the french (even thou they have not been rude to me except once at an airport) they (the americans) feel more fake. ** lorg does the duck and cover **

Following that logic, the US will never allow Europe to become a superpower.

Europe doesn't want to become a superpower.

Have no doubt I think they would take the opportunity again if it arose. At the moment thou I don't think our common goal (if there even is such a thing) is a military superpower. Instead I think our 'superpower' ambition will be one of knowledge, economy and culture. With enough guns around so nobody tries to fuck with us but not enough to build a new empire that the sun never sets on ala Britain.

Nor was the US always the unified federal power house it is today. Times change. We changed, Europe can too. First Europe unites, then Africa, Asia, then we can start unifying each of those bigger conglomerates.... eventually we'll be ready to go piss off other races in the galaxy!

Star Trekkin' across the universe ...

Mind over matter. Time to apply yourself.

I really hate that attitude.

OK apparently I'm the only one that likes that one ... So I'll never use that one here again.

Yeah, I may have to come back to the US for my PhD. There just aren't enough options for high level education for English-only speakers here.

As I mentioned to Moo previously there is the entire nation of GB, plus a lot of other schools does actually offer it. What exactlly is it that they offer state side that you can't find here? I really want to know, if it is so much better there then here then I might take a trip over there when it comes time to PhD.

And the amount of "pushing around" our nation does is vastly overstated by people who dislike recent foreign policy. As has been noted, the view of America was much more positive before the recent actions in Iraq, which indicates a sudden rise in anti-Americanism based on a single armed conflict, which is absurd.

Yes I did refer to America there when I said "you", I normally do since we are not talking about single persons here but on a larger scale.

I'm not saying you don't ever do any good (hope I didn't, if I did I didn't mean that literally). What I think I said was that the bad things overshadows the good things. If not for another reason bad news always gets more reporting then good news.

I don't belive the recent armed conflicts (iraq+war on terror) made anti-americanism go from 0 to 1, I think it was just the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

Remember when I said that Europeans can't concieve of the amount of space we have? I meant it. You cannot. You, personally, I believe, cannot, particularly if you're comparing your amount of space to ours. [Although...which nation do you live in again? If I recall correctly, your country, at least, has more than most.]

Absolutely. We have large open spaces but not on the same large open scale as you do, or Canada for that matter. But to get local here the core of our population live in the southern 1/3 of the country. But then you have smaller countries like the netherlands where people more or less live in the lap of eachother.

There is virtually no interest here in talking about European politics. Americans don't know enough to talk about it [generally], and Europeans don't think it's nearly as fun as having another go at bashing America. Take a look at the threads started by Europeans about politics or national or international issues. Take a look at the threads started by you personally. Compare how many are about European politics, and how many are outright America-bashing [or only marginally concealed America-thwacking].

I think we have a few reasons for that. One is the language barrier, if all of Europe just spoke and wrote english the information would be easier to access, share and talk about. After all if I would find some local piece of news here and wanted to talk about that the only once that would have a remote chance of understanding it would be the other scandinavians. That is why I think it becomes american centric discussions simply cause I have access to the news and can read them and well so can you. It is not about america-bashing being more or less fun, I enjoy a good bashing regardless of country

About the whole scandinavian thing (se+dk+no)
We have a long common history that binds us together, we speak languages that are somewhat similar etc. We fuck around with eachother in a friendly kind of way. But as noted noone else is really allowed to take part in the fun. One reason we do get along so well I think is that we share a lot of common values and ideas, plus the common and interlinked history or our nations. After all we have once upon a time been one nation, even thou that didn't last all that long.

[Serious Paul]

Well core regular posters that I know for sure:

Americans: 3278, Serious Paul, Daki, Gunny, ak404, Slavation 122, MissTeja, MooCow, Cipher (I think), Scamp, Buzzed, JetPlane, FlameBlade, Eliahad, Liniah(When she's here ) Jeff, Kai, Marius, Bethyaga, Cain,Instant Cash, Jaded, Cash, Caz, Thorn etc...

Canadians: Adam, Szechuan, I know there are more

Aussies: JTB, Lady Jestyr, Mr. Mooky , Crone, SoWhat, a few others I am sure.

Europeans: DV8, Twisted Sister, lorg, Flak, Toryu, Angel ( I think) Eva, Veed, TLM and a couple of others...

I know I missed a bunch.

[WillyGilligan]

Have you forgotten that Crazy Elf is an Aussie? Well, maybe an island to himself..

[Serious Paul]

Like I said, I know I left a lot of people off.

[3278]

Angel is, in fact, European, although she originally came from America. I like to think that no matter what her current allegiances are, we can take credit for having created her.

[MooCow]

As I mentioned to Moo previously there is the entire nation of GB, plus a lot of other schools do actually offer it. What exactlly is it that they offer state side that you can't find here? I really want to know, if it is so much better there then here then I might take a trip over there when it comes time to PhD.

I think this has been covered. We want courses in english from a reputable university (And in my case, it has to be one that the US government will recognize for my licensing). Now, yes you listed one university that has CE classes in english. However, CE is a /very/ broad degree, even more so then other engineering degrees. I haven't looked at the course offerings, but it's a good bet they don't offer the courses I want. I'm having trouble finding them in /this/ country.

Another point, and I know Lin is having a lot of problems with this, is finding someone to pay for this stuff. From what Lin has said, getting our student loans to pay for over seas schooling is a major bitch.

[lorg]

Now, yes you listed one university that has CE classes in english. However, CE is a /very/ broad degree, even more so then other engineering degrees. I haven't looked at the course offerings, but it's a good bet they don't offer the courses I want. I'm having trouble finding them in /this/ country.

Tell me about it, I have so far taken classes at four different universities to get this degree together, hopefully I'll finish it by or around X-mas. The problem here is where do I write my papers etc. Some tweaking later and having all the schools talk to eachother it has been worked out.

Naturally if you want a US Government job or a license from them it is probably better to get your degree over there, can't you talk to people that already have that kind of job and see where they got it? or if it is one they will issue a license for what schools they do recommend. Wouldn't they have such information? I asked around in my field if they knew places where you could take courses they liked or thought where good.

[MooCow]

Naturally if you want a US Government job or a license from them it is probably better to get your degree over there, can't you talk to people that already have that kind of job and see where they got it?

Oh I have. The two degrees I'm interested in are Construction Management and Safety Engineering. The problem is finding CM as an engineering degree or SE with a construction focus. Many CM courses are done through the business college, and SE tends to focus more on manufacturing or office ergonomics.

or if it is one they will issue a license for what schools they do recommend. Wouldn't they have such information?

Well not really. What's required is an "ABET certfication /or/ the equivalent". That's pretty farking broad requirement. ABET can provide you a list of all the universities they certify, but after that you're still left sifting through that university's program offerings.

Frankly, the main reason I looked at european schools is your more liberal loan programs. For some reason which baffles me, many european countries will pay for your schooling even if you aren't a citizen. I think that's nuts, but I'll be more then happy to take advantage of it.

[TLM]

A complete tangent, but possibly amusing, nonetheless.

About the whole scandinavian thing (se+dk+no)
We have a long common history that binds us together, we speak languages that are somewhat similar etc. We fuck around with eachother in a friendly kind of way. But as noted noone else is really allowed to take part in the fun. One reason we do get along so well I think is that we share a lot of common values and ideas, plus the common and interlinked history or our nations. After all we have once upon a time been one nation, even thou that didn't last all that long.

Aaah, the Union of Kalmar. Glory days. And if you go a litle way back before that, we had everyone from Russia to France quaking in their boots!

That's one of the things about Europe... We have well over 2000 years of history (Norway has "only" about 1300 years "official" history), and it actually effects our current international relations. Scandinavians have this love/hate thing internally, but to the outside world, we're pretty unified for all the reasons lorg listed, but especially the historical part.

The main reason GB and France dislike each other? Normandy was once counted as property of the English Crown, and plenty of wars were fought over it waaay back when in 12 - 1300 AD. The reason Germans aren't really popular? One of Charlemagne's sons got the territory and went on to build the Holy Roman Empire, which spent most of it's time waging war. If not against anyone else, then against itself. italy ruled most if Europe under the romans and later through the Roman Catholic Church, so they get a reputation for being arrogant bastards (They're really very lovely people. And oh, the food...). So do the French, since they spent most of the time since the revolution up till about 1870 fighting everyone on the continent.

What I think the average American would consider "ancient history" is still shaping Europe today. Europe used to be a unified, more-or-less cohesive realm, and no-one's forgotten that. So it's only natural that the EU is now trying to unify Europe again, and even expand the borders. That doesn't mean I like it very much, though. There are some real problems with the EU, not least of which is corruption. But if they admit Turkey, Europe will be well on the way to become at least a challenge to the US, if not a military superpower.

But before Europe can be unified, the immense historical inertia that exists between the countries have to be overcome. In that way, the US was bloody lucky. As a very young country (sorry, but it still is), it had very little in the way of historical inertia to impede its growth. It didn't matter where you were from because, "hey, it's the 'New World'! Groovy!" That was and is part of the strength of the US; a highly dynamic attitude. Europe's strength is patience and a lot of experience from trial and error. Neither is necessarily inherently "better" than the other. But given a choice, I'll choose the European way over the Bush Doctrine.

(Tangent within tanget: Actually, I think that's one of the reason Clinton got so popular in Europe; He was very European in his way of handling US foreign policy. Sit down, have a chat, find a solution everyone could live with. Plus, he really was a charming guy. No matter how much I disagreed with what he did, he was still likeable. Oh, Clinton, where art thou?)

[Eva]

Mind over matter. Time to apply yourself.

I really hate that attitude.

OK apparently I'm the only one that likes that one ... So I'll never use that one here again.

You're not. It may not be my personal motto, but you're not the only one who likes it.

[MooCow]

You're not. It may not be my personal motto, but you're not the only one who likes it.

It's a fine sentiment, but is over used. No matter how hard I believe I can fly, jumping off a skyscraper will still kill me.

[DV8]

For the pedantic among us there is MooCow to champion the cause!

[MooCow]

For the pedantic among us there is MooCow to champion the cause!

Why thank you. *MooCow checks a dictionary* Hey wait a minute....

[Instant Cash]

Y'all should place yourselves in others' shoes before saying about each other's countries. I mean, like, live in other countries first for 6 months.

Trust me, I would love to, but unfortunatly that is not an option since I cannot find a job over there, yet. I am not giving up though.


As far as being an "American" overseas, I am torn. When I was there I was often scared to tell people I was America. I even told one person (Veed's friend) that I was Canadian, which I could not keep a straight face about and then told him I was American.

There was really only one time where I got any real negative responses. When I was at a Bar with DV8 one of the patrons asked me where I was from and I told him America. He said "Oh" and rolled his eyes away from me and went back to his drink. I told him "Alright come out with it, what is your issue with America?" He answered, "I think all Americans are stupid". My only response to that was "I disagree with that, Ignorant many of them might be, but there are plenty of smart people there." And that was it.

I did ask DV8 about peoples view of America and he said something that makes a lot of sense. The image most people get of America (since many of them have never been here) is from TV. Most notably Jerry Springer, which is for some odd reason is one of the most broadcasted shows over there (at the time I was there anyway). No wonder people think we are dolts. Add to this the news article I told people about a year ago when BBC did a special on "What America is like". It was filmed in small town Texas with people named (literally) Jim Bob and Billy Ray.

People draw conclusions from what they are exposed to, but really my experience there was totally kick ass. Everyone was nice to me and rather talkative when I was able to have a conversation with them. They even offered me much help with the train system since all the announcements where in Dutch.

I believe this article focuses (again) on the few "bad seeds" just like the BBC showing Texas as "the way Americans are"

[MooCow]

Wait.... hold on.... are you saying that not everyone in Holland wears wooden shoes?

[3278]

I love to hear the US people explaining why they've never lived in Europe for six months, while the Europeans who are happy to judge America and Americans on secondhand information haven't lived here at all.

[Johnny the Bull]

I love to hear the US people explaining why they've never lived in Europe for six months, while the Europeans who are happy to judge America and Americans on secondhand information haven't lived here at all.

You try getting a work permit for the states. I got better chance flooding in from mexico like the rest of the illegals rather than go through the legal process of being able to stay.

[MooCow]

You try getting a work permit for the states. I got better chance flooding in from mexico like the rest of the illegals rather than go through the legal process of being able to stay.

Isn't that the truth. I recall reading an article how many foreign university students can't get visas because the authorities are afraid they'll stay and work when they graduate. "Oh no! Educated, capable people will stay and contribute to the economy!"

What the hell?

[Johnny the Bull]

You try getting a work permit for the states. I got better chance flooding in from mexico like the rest of the illegals rather than go through the legal process of being able to stay.

Isn't that the truth. I recall reading an article how many foreign university students can't get visas because the authorities are afraid they'll stay and work when they graduate. "Oh no! Educated, capable people will stay and contribute to the economy!"

What the hell?

I got flat out told by the American consulate that when I graduate I faced up to a 10 year wait for residency. 10 fucking years, with 2 degrees a postgraduate qualification and a profession to boot.

Needless to say, I'm fucking of back to England (or perhaps Canada, where they're willing to give permanent residency on the day of arrival) as soon as I'm done.

[Instant Cash]

You try getting a work permit for the states. I got better chance flooding in from Mexico like the rest of the illegals rather than go through the legal process of being able to stay.

This is very true, apparently America immigration makes it very difficult (despite having lots of immigrants) to get work over here. Yes it can be done but it takes a lot of work and you have to be /very/ determined to do it. Now this might include leaving everything to start with nothing and work your way up. So since it is a bitch, the same holds true for Americans trying to go overseas for work. Most people who find themselves in a stable well paying job overseas is by hooking up with an international company, working there for a few years, then getting a transfer to something interesting like that.

I had a conversation about this at some point with someone but the details allude me at this point.

[3278]

You try getting a work permit for the states.

*laughs* Yeah, I have. I know.

[Johnny the Bull]

You try getting a work permit for the states.

*laughs* Yeah, I have. I know.

Yeah, fuck the days of give us your poor and downtrodden. We can't even give our prosperous and educated. At the moment it seems to be "give us your billionaires and tax-evaders", which wouldn't be a problem for me if I were a billionaie.

[3278]

Which confused the hell out of me. I assumed for the longest time that the US still had open immigration. They certainly don't bother to teach you otherwise in school; we just talk about the tired and poor, and Ellis Island. No one mentions that, today, you've got to be "desirable" to have a decent chance of getting in, which is to say, have a degree and lots of experience in fields we need more people in.

That's not necessarily bad: I can see that open immigration would be a huge problem in the US today. But it seems like it's not something that gets talked about.

[MooCow]

Which frankly I support. I think you should have something we need before we let you in. Now, that can mean having a strong back and a willingness to collect garbage for a living. However, asking people to send you their "tired and weak" is just stupid.

[Chopper]

No need to come to America. All you have to do is wait for America to come to you. Democracy, McDonalds, shoe factories, programming companies, ect.

Oh yeah, and the latest, minimum wage.

[Angel]

Okay, more Americans should come over to Europe to see how things work here. That way it would free up a lot of jobs in the States for those legal/illegal aliens wanting to work there.

Just think about it, if you're American you can come to Europe and get Health Insurance, 5+ weeks of paid vacation a year, 10+ paid holidays a years, worker's rights, job security, and the knowledge that you're freeing up an opportunity for some poor foreigners trying to make it up the ladder, working his way out of the cesspool and up to the next rung on the ladder, America. While in the same move, you (the American) can take heart in the fact that you're moving up the ladder aswell, to Europe!

Everyone wins!

[Instant Cash]

Okay, more Americans should come over to Europe to see how things work here. That way it would free up a lot of jobs in the States for those legal/illegal aliens wanting to work there.

Just think about it, if you're American you can come to Europe and get Health Insurance, 5+ weeks of paid vacation a year, 10+ paid holidays a years, worker's rights, job security, and the knowledge that you're freeing up an opportunity for some poor foreigners trying to make it up the ladder, working his way out of the cesspool and up to the next rung on the ladder, America. While in the same move, you (the American) can take heart in the fact that you're moving up the ladder aswell, to Europe!

Everyone wins!

Trust me, I am /trying/.

[TLM]

And just to try and head off 3278 and the others who's probably lining up to talk about how "this is something governments should not do" etc; Don't knock it till you've tried it. Seriously. 33 % of my current income go to taxes. Given what I get in return for those taxes, I'd happily pay more. Yes, that's right: I have never evaded tax, nor can I ever imagine a situation it would be desirable for me to do so.

(I know I bitched about taxes in a different thread. I never got around to posting the follow-up which would have listed what I actually get in return.)

[DV8]

Wait.... hold on.... are you saying that not everyone in Holland wears wooden shoes?

Sorry to disappoint you, Moo. But we are all traders, so...ehm...can I sell you a pair?

I love to hear the US people explaining why they've never lived in Europe for six months, while the Europeans who are happy to judge America and Americans on secondhand information haven't lived here at all.

I have to admit, I have no clue what you're saying here. Could you rephrase please, because my 32-to-English translator is on the fritz.

You try getting a work permit for the states. I got better chance flooding in from mexico like the rest of the illegals rather than go through the legal process of being able to stay.

The only sure way is to get sponsored by a company. If you can't, then there's a certain quotum per country that will be issued a visum.

I recall reading an article how many foreign university students can't get visas because the authorities are afraid they'll stay and work when they graduate.

As far as I remember you can stay for a year after graduation to gain work-experience. While you're still in school, you can only work on campus or if you somehow gain credit for it.

I got flat out told by the American consulate that when I graduate I faced up to a 10 year wait for residency. 10 fucking years, with 2 degrees a postgraduate qualification and a profession to boot.

I guess there's a lot of people wanting to go from .au to .us, or they're getting more and more stingy with green cards.

At the moment it seems to be "give us your billionaires and tax-evaders", which wouldn't be a problem for me if I were a billionaie.

You still won't get a work-permit, though.

...5+ weeks of paid vacation a year, 10+ paid holidays a years, worker's rights, job security...

Ehm...this might be true for governmental employees, but it's definitely not the standard in the private sector.

[Angel]

Sometimes I have to wonder what the average American worker thinks she/he is getting in return for allowing (voting for) the Democrats and Republicans to rule over them in the way that they do.

What good comes for the Military-Industrial-Complex (or the welfare state)? Who benefits? Has the average worker really gained anything other than access to a deeper credit debt? Big money isn't everything, and the projects that are "in the best interests" of the people don't seem to be on the agenda of any major politican in America.

At least in some European countries, if the populous is outraged about something that their elected officials have then their protests are actually heard. In America the only voice that is heard is the one which speaks in dollars.

If I were still in America I would be depressed over the apparent lack of empowerment that the people have, and America is supposedly the cornerstone of democracy, a government of the people, by the people, for the people... and it's people have lined up to sell their freedom and best interests for nothing more than a few pennies which were borrowed from the rich.