Bulldrek v3.0

Bill Cosby recently spoke out against what he sees as the black community's "dirty laundry"

It's managed to cause a bit of a stir in the community and I must applaud him for his comments. This is a problem that is becoming more prevelent in those communities and this is the first high-profile case of someone speaking out against it.

Sean Hannity is about to talk about this on the radio. I will keep you posted on anything memorable.

Chopper wrote:Sean Hannity is about to talk about this on the radio. I will keep you posted on anything memorable.

Forgive me, I live under a rock. Who is Sean Hannity?

Right wing radio talkshow host AFAIK. Think Rush Limbaugh.

My infinite respect for the Cos' just doubled.

Sorry about posting so late. I got wrapped up in the weekend festivities, forgot I was actually going to comment. Sean basically brought the issue to his listeners by reapeating what Cosby said and playing sound bites. So nothing really from Sean worth quoting on this.

I do find this quote interresting from Bill Cosby.
"I don't care if a white man can use what I said against the black man."

My friend Nikki has been saying that since the day I met her. I'm really glad Cosby got it out to the world like that. It's a beautiful thing when entertainments most well-known black man starts in on today's ignorant black people. Particularly when he's absolutely right.

Where's our liberals at when this thread gets posted? Hmmm seems to me we're not as liberated as a board as we seem to think....

Either way I think Cosby's remarks were intresting, poignant, and very risky. I applaud him for wanting something better-no demanding better.

Serious Paul wrote:Where's our liberals at when this thread gets posted? Hmmm seems to me we're not as liberated as a board as we seem to think....

What? I happen to agree with Cosby. And this isn't a new message. Go into any black church and you'll see the same message has been preached in almost all of them.

Sorry about posting so late. I got wrapped up in the weekend festivities, forgot I was actually going to comment. Sean basically brought the issue to his listeners by reapeating what Cosby said and playing sound bites. So nothing really from Sean worth quoting on this.

Seriously, don't quote Hannity on this board. So far, I like you, and I like that you've brought brazen conservativism to the table. And I sort of think that Sean Hannity's a guy with generally good politics. But he has a singular talent for taking a good idea a step too far and coming to a bad conclusion. Ask anyone, I'm about as conservative as it gets around here, but I tend to think Hannity's a guy whose ideas need to be debunked, not mirrored.

Serious Paul wrote:Where's our liberals at when this thread gets posted? Hmmm seems to me we're not as liberated as a board as we seem to think....

Forgive me, I'm missing the connection. What does that have to do with this thread? I don't get it.


Bill Cosby kicks ass.

Liniah wrote:

Serious Paul wrote:Where's our liberals at when this thread gets posted? Hmmm seems to me we're not as liberated as a board as we seem to think....

Forgive me, I'm missing the connection. What does that have to do with this thread? I don't get it.

I don't get it either. Maybe the conservatives got to Paul and turned him.

*skips off to hug a tree*

Well, maybe Paul's pointing out the irony; when I say these things, our board liberals - many of them - go berzerk. When Bill Cosby says them - presumably both because he's Bill Cosby and because he's black - everyone nods their heads, or remains silent.

Is this a case of liberalism vs conservatism?

3278 wrote:Well, maybe Paul's pointing out the irony; when I say these things, our board liberals - many of them - go berzerk. When Bill Cosby says them - presumably both because he's Bill Cosby and because he's black - everyone nods their heads, or remains silent.

Or doesn't give a fuck what Cosby thinks. His opinion is about as important to me as Pauly Shore's. When it's you 3278, at least we can debate it.

Marius wrote:Seriously, don't quote Hannity on this board.

Wait a second. Hold up. We can make threads about Moore, but we can't quote Hannity?

DV8 wrote:Is this a case of liberalism vs conservatism?

Yes. And a case of black versus white, Republican versus Democrat, urban versus rural, and several other things. However, I do not believe it is /primarily/ an issue of liberalism versus conservativism; the only reason we're discussing that is because of Paul's comment. If someone comments on a black versus white issue, we'll discuss that.

Marius wrote:Seriously, don't quote Hannity on this board.

I thought one of the hallmarks of "this board" was a free, uncensored exchange of ideas.That's one of the things that keeps me coming back, if people want to say/quote something here they can and do. If someone disagrees they make their own case against it and post. Anyway back to the actual subject of this thread...

DV8 wrote:Is this a case of liberalism vs conservatism?

No. Nor is it"black vs white", "Republican versus Democrat", "urban versus ruraT" or even Oilers vs Lakers.
This is a case of ignorance vs education, sloth vs activity, blaming others vs looking inward and MAYBE finding that a good bit of your fucked up life is your fault.
It's thousands of individuals, working together to create a sub-culture wherein being a wifebeating grade-school dropout with an alchohol problem is not only acceptable, but "not your fault".

Hell, white people have that too, we call them "White Trash".

I think you are wrong Moto. It is Black v. White,and all that. It has to be at least partially some of all of those elements,and the results are what you listed.

What I said more or less meant to be said with a little fecitous ironic smile. (I guess I should learn to tag stuff with sarcasm tags, eh? ) But basically yeah, 3278 put it into words that suite my purposes just right. Had I said this in a public forum you'd have had a headline that used the words racist or NAZI in it somewhere...

And now you're putting words into the mouths of everyone on this board that you'd lump into the category of 'liberal'. How nice.

3278 wrote:Well, maybe Paul's pointing out the irony; when I say these things, our board liberals - many of them - go berzerk. When Bill Cosby says them - presumably both because he's Bill Cosby and because he's black - everyone nods their heads, or remains silent.

Not all of the liberals here leave common sense at the door.

What the fuck'd I do now?

Nothing, yet.

dp.

I absolutely made a sweeping overgeneralization. This is no defense, but it's worth pointing out that "conservatives" are constantly grouped together here, as well, despite hardly being of one mind. Nevertheless, yes, I definitely shouldn't lump you all in together.

This is all very confusing. I think I must've misread the Cosby article, because I think that regardless of political bias everyone on the board agrees with what Mr. Cosby said.

"Or not."

You know, it's really not necessary to be snarky to Deev every time he posts, especially since, in this case, with the exception of Cain (and maybe Lin), he's right.

Liniah wrote:And now you're putting words into the mouths of everyone on this board that you'd lump into the category of 'liberal'. How nice.

Nice? Probably not, I guess, since nice is such a nebulous word for me. But yeah I tend to view a lot of you as pretty knee jerk liberal. Am I wrong? Probably-thats why I read your posts and my opinion changes, and dreckcetera.

Its really not much different than what people do when they read my posts right? I mean how lese do you know me? How else do I know I you? Sure we keep tabs on each others live journals, and maybe a few of us know each other outside this joint, but really our posts are what we have to judge each other.

In this case I seem to have misjudged a lot of you. I think its intresting actually. Its really not what I would have expected of some posters here. (Note I didn't say which ones.)

Salvation122 wrote:You know, it's really not necessary to be snarky to Deev every time he posts, especially since, in this case, with the exception of Cain (and maybe Lin), he's right.

Yeah, but I don't like him. Is it okay if I'm not always nice to people I don't like? And I /don't/ think he's right in this case, which is why I disagreed with him. It's amusing that /I'm/ the one being "snarky" when I quote a reply of his that no one considered "snarky." I appreciate your trying to be my conscience, but the simple fact of the matter is, I'm going to treat people the way I think they deserve to be treated, and DV8, in my opinion, deserves to be treated with snarkyness, for many reasons, not the least of which is the manner in which he treats me, which you've only condemned when you've soundly placed the guilt on both of us. I'm pretty tired of stupid people being stupid, and no one calling them on it, while I'm an asshole for saying true things in a manner people don't like to hear.

Serious Paul wrote:What I said more or less meant to be said with a little fecitous ironic smile. (I guess I should learn to tag stuff with sarcasm tags, eh? ) But basically yeah, 3278 put it into words that suite my purposes just right. Had I said this in a public forum you'd have had a headline that used the words racist or NAZI in it somewhere...

I don't know how you would have expressed yourself, but Bill Cosby has done everything right, here. He doesn't generalise - he says 'some'; he proposes concrete courses of action; he speaks as (some sort of a) leader of a community, to the people of that community instead of sniping from the sidelines (e.g. complaining on a message board).

3278 wrote:I'm pretty tired of stupid people being stupid, and no one calling them on it, while I'm an asshole for saying true things in a manner people don't like to hear.

Your behaviour throughout this thread has been stupid, including your half-arsed attempt to clean up after your poorly thought-through initial reaction.

As for what Bill Cosby said, I agree with him.

Mjelvis wrote:Your behaviour throughout this thread has been stupid, including your half-arsed attempt to clean up after your poorly thought-through initial reaction.

Sorry for admitting I was wrong. Fuckass.

Salvation122 wrote:You know, it's really not necessary to be snarky to Deev every time he posts, especially since, in this case, with the exception of Cain (and maybe Lin), he's right.

Liniah wrote:Bill Cosby kicks ass.

Ok, if that's not clear enough, I'll elaborate.

Cosby Article wrote:"You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."

This point, as well as points in the whole article, are indeed points that I used to stress to my kids at the YMCA when I worked there. On any given day, about 85% of them (approx.) were black or hispanic males, ages 12-15. I tried to get them to understand that shit is important now, more shit than DMX and Fabulous and the rest of those guys, cause those guys aren't going to get you a job.

Cosby Article wrote:"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads.

This, in my experiance, is true as well. It was amazing what words I had to define for the kids. After they started to respect me, some would actually speak up and ask what a word I used meant when they didn't understand it. And I'm not talking advanced words here. They generally tended to be words I asumed that they'd know. It does come from the parents too. I used to have to call home if the kids got in fights and a lot of times their 'issues' ran in the family. There are many reasons for this. Sometimes it's poor parenting, other times it's a different value system, etc.

Also, along these lines, I had a very intelligent and educated black roomate last year. Both her parents were well spoken and seemed like they really had their shit together. However, she would always tell stories about her ghetto-fied cousins at family gatherings. She'd talk about how they acted and spoke, etc.


I've heard some people say that it's a cultural thing and white people just don't like how the black people are talking cause it's not white enough. This is a bit of a valid point, but only to an extent. My roomate last year proved that you can still be black, act 'black', and not talk like a fool. Many black people don't see that, though. One of our mutual friends, who's only half black, isn't speaking to my ex-roomate anymore cause she didn't feel that she acted black enough (so I heard).

Cosby Article wrote:what the white man is doing against us

It's funny how things are selective. Back to my kids at the Y, many of them were taught from somewhere to be racist. They'd say things like 'who sings this song? are they white?' 'one of them is' 'they suck'. It's sad, cause it seems like they're just repeating shit they heard somewhere else.

Cosby Article wrote:Cosby also said many young people are failing to honor the sacrifices made by those who struggled and died during the civil rights movement.

The kids didn't know a damn thing about black history (we did a lesson or two on it) even though they're taught at least a bit about it in schools. One of my coworkers couldn't believe the lack of knowledge these kids had about 'their' history.



I think what Cosby says also relates to the notion that black people are killing black people, and that many groups are trying to get them to look at this and stop. Some people blame it on rap. Well, I tend to think blaming your problems on music is bogus. The music is made because of the problems, not vice versa. Though, role models to propetuate preexisting problems at times. To me, it seems like a big cycle and I don't know a good plan to break it. I really did try with my kids, though. I think a lack of info. about stuff on the black side and on any other race's side is an issue. I don't think it's fair for the rest of the people to go 'oh, this is just a black issue'. I mean, true, what Bill says is right (imo), but that's not an excuse for others to be dipshits about the problem. There is rarely only one cause of a social problem.


Ok, excuse the tangent. I could go on forever on this topic. Think I'll abruptly stop now.

Oh, and by the way, Paul, how was a liberal person supposed to react to Bill's comments, cause I honestly don't see what there is not to like about it. Am I being dense?

I'm not Paul, but I'll shoot [especially since I can hardly piss people off any more than I already have]. I have recieved a lot of flak, almost always from liberals, and almost never from conservatives, for saying many of the same things Bill Cosby said. It's happened here, and it's happened in "real life." In fact, I'm as confused as you are! I can't believe no one understands why someone might contradict me if I started talking about how Ebonics wasn't the speech of successful people, and how black men needed to stop beating their women and holding up convenience stores. [Or if I referred to black children as "dirty laundry."]

It's one of those things, like straight people bitching about gays; you can say the /exact same thing/ as someone gay has said, but if you're straight, the sensitivity police - usually liberals, you know, and not conservatives, who are usually the insensitive ones, like me - will freak out and disagree vehemently with whatever you said. This is a well-known phenomenon, isn't it? I mean, past the person-to-person issues in this thread, this really /is/ something people are familiar with, right? It's like "no one hits my brother but me."

Like DV8 says, it's not a liberal versus conservative issue. Except, as I would add, inasmuch as there is a tendency for liberals to be the people to get offended on the poor black man's behalf, and for conservatives to be the people saying, "Get a job. Stop robbing liquor stores and then bitching about 'the man' keeping you down."

I profoundly doubt, if I had posted the exact speech Cosby gave, in my own name, that only a single liberal would have disagreed. I also profoundly doubt that most of the board's conservatives would have disagreed. That is my point of view; I welcome correction, although at this point such correction is, I understand, somewhat difficult, since it's quite hard to predict what people would do, given less information than they actually have.

3278. In response to your post. Bravo.

Thanks 32, you've expressed it better than I could have.

And you two would be...ah, yes. Conservatives.

You see?

3278 wrote:I'm not Paul, but I'll shoot [especially since I can hardly piss people off any more than I already have]. I have recieved a lot of flak, almost always from liberals, and almost never from conservatives, for saying many of the same things Bill Cosby said. It's happened here, and it's happened in "real life." In fact, I'm as confused as you are! I can't believe no one understands why someone might contradict me if I started talking about how Ebonics wasn't the speech of successful people, and how black men needed to stop beating their women and holding up convenience stores. [Or if I referred to black children as "dirty laundry."]

You could give the same speech, but the context would be very different. So people would interpret it differently. I think the ideas in this speech are kinda interesting, but it is the context that gives it its power.

3278 wrote:And you two would be...ah, yes. Conservatives.

You see?

Also, bravo.

(I assumed my earlier statements implied agreement. From now on, I'll be more direct - for everyone's benefit.)

Okay, I'll bite. 32, you claim that many "liberals" hold a double standard between what you, a white person, are permitted to say and what Bill Cosby is permitted to say. To an extent, I agree with you, but there is another significant difference between what you would say on a message board and what Cosby has said: not only are the speakers different, but the audience is different, too.

If you were to say:

"Black men need... to stop beating their women and holding up convenience stores."

I would question why you referred only to black men. Maybe these actions are more prevalent among black men - I don't know - but presumably there are also many white men, Asian men, and men of all races who also beat their wives and hold up convenience stores, and they all ought to stop doing it. Because Cosby is specifically addressing "the black community", it makes sense that he only refer to black people.

It is also worth noting that (as far as the article reports it, anyway) Cosby did not say, "black people need to to this," or, "black people have this problem" - he was speaking about specific black individuals, rather than black people as a whole. When you say, "black men need to stop beating their women," you are not making this distinction.

Furthermore, while it may appear to be a double standard that Cosby can get away with saying things that you can't, Cosby is presumably much more familiar with what it is like to be black in America than you are, and so he speaks with more authority. Even if what you say is correct, you're speaking in an area where Cosby is probably more expert than you. It's therefore almost inevitable that his word is going to be better received and more constructive than yours. Even though it may be ideologically offensive to you, all voices on an issue are not equal.

mooky, you are correct that all voices on an issue are not equal. That is where the problem lies. If a white man cannot give constructive criticism to a black man, or if a black man cannot give constructive criticism to a white man, then there is still a serious race issue that needs to be adressed. (replace a race with any other race, I dont feel like typing them all out.)

Actually, Cosby isn't "getting away" with it any more than anyone else would. Just take a look at the controversy that's emerged since. People are turning on his words.

The difference is, he's so well-known as a black-rights supporter, that he's earned the respect of the black community as a whole. He hasn't said that racism doesn't exist, or that it's not having an effect, unlike most conservatives and libertarians (or people who refuse to acknowledge collective responsibilities). He's also not putting the onus on individuals, he's putting it on the community as a whole.

Those are the important distinctions to make. Really, the difference between conservatives and liberals in this country amounts to emphasis, and not doctrine.

Cain wrote:He hasn't said that racism doesn't exist, or that it's not having an effect, unlike most conservatives and libertarians (or people who refuse to acknowledge collective responsibilities).

Most conservatives and libertarians say that racism doesn't exist?

Cain wrote:He's also not putting the onus on individuals, he's putting it on the community as a whole.

Bill Cosby wrote:You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage. You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity.

Seems to me that at least some of his comments are targeted at individuals.

Cain wrote:Really, the difference between conservatives and liberals in this country amounts to emphasis, and not doctrine.

The difference between Christianity and Satanism also amounts to emphasis, and not doctrine. But it's still a pretty big fucking difference.

3278 wrote:It's one of those things, like straight people bitching about gays; you can say the /exact same thing/ as someone gay has said, but if you're straight, the sensitivity police - usually liberals, you know, and not conservatives, who are usually the insensitive ones, like me - will freak out and disagree vehemently with whatever you said. This is a well-known phenomenon, isn't it? I mean, past the person-to-person issues in this thread, this really /is/ something people are familiar with, right? It's like "no one hits my brother but me."

Like DV8 says, it's not a liberal versus conservative issue. Except, as I would add, inasmuch as there is a tendency for liberals to be the people to get offended on the poor black man's behalf, and for conservatives to be the people saying, "Get a job. Stop robbing liquor stores and then bitching about 'the man' keeping you down."

Ok, I agree with the part that it would be different for some if a white guy made the same statement. (I personally don't feel I fall into this category. I'm used to that having been a soc. major- lots of race & ethnicity classes and such, with basically all white profs.) However, I have a feeling you would have said it a bit different than Cosby did. (Again, though, it's impossible to say what someone would have said.) I mean, I think the difference is that you're saying liberals make excuses for them, where as conservatives tell them to 'get a job' (in a nutshell). IMO, Cosby didn't exactly do either of these. He did inbetween, which is also where I personally see the truth as. It's not as simple as 'go get a damn job', but if people keep making excuses then nothing gets fixed. Cosby said 'these guys are in need of education' and he also said 'well, it seems to be their parent's fault too' and 'don't sit around bitching about what someone did to you instead of being proactive'. There is a reason for what's going on, what's going on is a problem, but the fact that there is a reason isn't an excuse, it just helps us understand so it can be solved. I'm personally totally all about the 'happy medium' on this issue.

Hardly made news over here so anyone got a transcript of the speech and then i'll comment on it.

Good call. I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing. I just read the link at the top.

Chopper wrote:mooky, you are correct that all voices on an issue are not equal. That is where the problem lies. If a white man cannot give constructive criticism to a black man, or if a black man cannot give constructive criticism to a white man, then there is still a serious race issue that needs to be adressed. (replace a race with any other race, I dont feel like typing them all out.)

Well, you're right and you're wrong, I think. In this particular instance, if we're talking about what 32 can get away with saying and what Bill Cosby can get away with saying, well, there is a difference, and they should not, in fact, be equal. As Mooky pointed out, Bill Cosby can be considered an "expert" in this case, whereas 3278 is not. He's a smart guy and I often respect his opinions, even when I disagree, but he's not an expert on what it's like to be a part of the black community.

Now if we were talking about Random White Guy and Random Black Guy, well then they should be able to give constructive criticism to whoever they choose with equal authority. But we're not talking about random people. I wouldn't expect to talk about the terrible effects of prostate cancer with the same authority as a man who's actually survived prostate cancer - why should Random White Guy (or 32) expect to have the same authority regarding "life as a black person" as Bill Cosby?

32 - to address your comments directly: In my recollection (and if I'm wrong, please let me know) most often your comments regarding problems within the black community have largely come down to "get a job", which okay, seeing as we're often on opposite sides of the ideological fence, I historically probably haven't admitted is a fair point. Of course, the reason typically is because I've been busy trying to state that I don't believe it's as simple as all that. Bill Cosby talked about how there are kids who are being raised in families and communities where they aren't being taught any better than to speak poorly and value the wrong things. I don't recall you often admitting the influence parenting/community can have on a person's future prospects, generally preferring to stress the importance of personal responsibility alone.

So, if you had ever actually made comments /just like/ what Bill Cosby had done, I would of course completely agree with you - because you would be completely right. Unfortunately, I can't currently recall (though I haven't paid much attention to a lot of these more controversial discussions in the past year - if you've done so during that time, I'm afraid I haven't seen it) any times when you discussed the current state of affairs in the black community as thoroughly (and imo, as fairly) as Bill Cosby did.

Seriously, that's the big difference - not who said it or who they said it to (though I wouldn't say it makes no difference), but the entirety of the message and how it was delivered.

Here is an example.

Dr. White says, "If you want to go to my school to become a doctor, you need to speak proper english."

Mr. Black says, "Sure thing, I'll work on that, see you next semester!"

or.

Dr. Black says, "If you want to go to my school to become a doctor, you need to stop being lazy."

Mr. White says, "Sure thing, I'll work on that, see you next semester!"

That was a person to person context, now lets change the situation a bit.

What if Dr. White addressed a primarily black audience of students on carreer day? Suddenly Dr. White is accused of steriotyping cause he adressed the audience as a whole. But if Dr. Black addressed the same audience, well nobody would make a fuss over it would they?