Hong Kong

[Serious Paul]

Link

So Hong Kong was always the one city I wanted to visit as a teenager (I blame Frank Dukes (sp?)) and I keep an eye on the news with its name on it. Its a city that fascinates me to no end.

So what I am wondering is if anyone else is thinking something big is on the horizon over there? This seems like the rock is being pushed up to the top of the hill, but when will it come tumbling down?

HK seems like a place where they would love American help, or anyones for that matter, to get back their independence. I'd actually be pretty supportive of policy from the US that tried to help the people of Hong Kong.

What are your thoughts?

[Johnny the Bull]

I'd like them return to the British Empire, if only because it makes me acquiring dual national status that much easier.

As an aside, my mate Martin's folks have been living there for the last 5 years. They've said there has been very little change to daily life since the Chinese took over. It's too much of a cash cow for the mainland chinese to ruin it.

[DV8]

Exactly. For all intents and purposes it's democracy, or a capitalist communism - which is basically the same thing - as are many different experimental capitalist enclaves throughout China. China's not stupid, and they're planning to let Hong Kong spearhead their economic boom, polevaulting it to heights unreached under British rule.

I'm actually kind of surprised to hear there's animosity towards the communist rule, and I think it might just be based on...how do you say that?...on principles rather than practicality.

[JongWK]

Except that, if look closer, you can see that the Chinese government is subtly tiping the scale in its favor: restrictive laws, no true general elections as promised, threats to journalists (a lot of them coming through the Triads, apparently), etc.

[3278]

So what I am wondering is if anyone else is thinking something big is on the horizon over there?

It is inevitable. Mainland China and Hong Kong will never see eye-to-eye unless one of them changes more than I feel is particularly likely.

HK seems like a place where they would love American help, or anyones for that matter, to get back their independence.

I bet they wouldn't welcome American interference. I bet if you held a vote, the majority of the people in Hong Kong would /not/ want the US to step in, even if it meant eventual autonomy. For what it's worth, I'd vote with them, since I think the US should stay out of other peoples' nations, and because I think revolution is best done from the inside, so people earn what they receive. Freedom imposed from outside seems to have worked poorly in nearly every nation we've attempted such action in the past.

[FlakJacket]

Ahh, the democratic process. Our last goodbye/fuck you present to the mainland Chinese.

[Serious Paul]

Thats a pretty valid point 32. Other than Germany and Japan we have a horrible track record at setting up governments for other people. Germany and Japan were of course pretty unique in their scope, and situation.

I guess I really didn't have much to base my comments on other than a perceived commonality of our peoples. (Similar ideals, and economics-which I guess now that I think about it doesn't really equate to "same".)

[Cain]

It's been a hell of a long time since I pitched a liberty in Hong Kong, but the last one was two years before the handover. Many of my favorite places were gone; the owners had decided to skip the country rather than accept Communist rule.

About all I could do to explain the situation is like this: China is a bunch of disjointed cultures, and the Hong Kong Chinese are probably the most traditional of the lot of them. They're definitely more traditional than the Beijing mainlanders-- which, if you think about it, makes sense; the mainlaners underwent some major cultural shifts while Hong Kong remained more or less the same. As a result, the Hong Kong people tend to view themselves as the true repository of Chinese culture, while the mainlanders think the same.

[3278]

"Pitched a liberty?" That's an odd turn of phrase. Do you just mean, "took a vacation," or were you visiting on military leave? [You and your crazy dialect!]

[Cain]

It's pretty much the term everyone was using when they got to Hong Kong. The Hong Kong nightlife is still quite famous, and the American sailor slang kinda stuck. Some of the people I was partying with were American military as well.

[Johnny the Bull]

I don't know what people are talking about. Returning Hong Kong to independence? It was the most restricted dominion in the Empire, mainly because we leased it from the Chinese after a conference in 1856 (I think, we had total control in perpetuity from 1840 but we made a deal). Hong Kong was never independent and China has /always/ been the rightful owner of Hong Kong, except arguably during the 1840-56 period.

[UncleJoseph]

...Frank Dux

[Serious Paul]

I knew I spelled it wrong. Thanks.

[FlakJacket]

Hong Kong was never independent and China has /always/ been the rightful owner of Hong Kong, except arguably during the 1840-56 period.

Not so. IIRC, in the first land deal we got the Chinese to cede Hong Kong and Kowloon to us in perpetuity. Following that at about the turn of the century we gained a 99 year lease on the New Territories- so called because, well that's what they were. When the lease ran out we decided to give the whole thing back since neither side could really survive divided. That and we didn't want to get locked out of China's rapidly expanding markets.

[Johnny the Bull]

Hong Kong was never independent and China has /always/ been the rightful owner of Hong Kong, except arguably during the 1840-56 period.

Not so. IIRC, in the first land deal we got the Chinese to cede Hong Kong and Kowloon to us in perpetuity. Following that at about the turn of the century we gained a 99 year lease on the New Territories- so called because, well that's what they were. When the lease ran out we decided to give the whole thing back since neither side could really survive divided. That and we didn't want to get locked out of China's rapidly expanding markets.

Hmm... I blame my shitty perusing of resources. You're quite right, took control of the island proper in 1841 and enforced it in 1842 by threatening an invasion at Nanking. 1859 we got Kowloon and Stonecutter and then a 99 year lease on the New Territories in 1898 and agreed in 1997 to give the whole lot to the Chinese, not just the NTs.

But still, HK was never independent, or not in modern times which is when it matters.

[FlakJacket]

Interesting fact- we almost didn't take Hong Kong Island in the very first agreement. There were some very powerful voices in government and politics at the time that said we should have demanded the Island of Formosa- what's known today as Taiwan. Wonder how things might have turned out differently if they'd gone that way instead of Hong Kong.

[mrmooky]

After a ceremony to raise the Chinese and Hong Kong flags, Tung told dignitaries that Hong Kong should only move toward full democracy gradually, and put its efforts into improving its economy.

Am I the only one who finds this line particularly hilarious? While Hong Kong wasn't fully democratic under British rule, it's hardly like the locals will be unable to comprehend the crazy new old system of voting for their leaders.

[Chopper]

"We will give it to you eventually. Like us, we want you to have a democracy."

"When?"

"Eventually. Keep liking us, no need to protest. It's coming."

"When?"

"Eventually. Aren't we cool?"

"When?"

"Not yet, but eventually. Smile."

"When?"

"Eventually."

"When?"

"New law. No more questions."

[Cain]

I thought we were talking about Hong Kong, not Iraq.

[mrmooky]

[Rev]

Vizzini:
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." But, only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when death is on the line!"