In the SST forum, users are free to discuss philosophy, music, art, religion, sock colour, whatever. It's a haven from the madness of Bulldrek; alternately intellectual and mundane, this is where the controversy takes place.
And Jesse Glover is the first one to admit he doesn't teach Bruce Lee's exact style.
Nobdoy who actually trained with Bruce claims to do that. Everyone has a different take on it. The Kimuras may be the closest to his Seattle style, since they teach "Jun Fan", but Glover teaches what he calles "Nonclassical Wing Chun", Patrick Strong doesn't even put a name to what he teaches, and so on. The Oakland era students all teach "Jeet Kune Do" as a brand name, even though what they teach can be radically different from school to school.
Oh, and before I forget-- Gunny, I'm freaking old! How do you think I managed all this, it's because I'm old!
Cain wrote:That photo was taken in Seattle, around 62. Only 40 years or so ago, not that terribly long; except for Ed Hart and Bruce himself, everyone in that photo is still alive.
59 or 60, so 44-45 years ago. You were, what, 35 or so at the time?
How silly of me to simply assume; that always bothers you. How old were you in 1960? And which of the men in that picture did you train with? For how long?
Cain wrote:A sumo in a fight with a standard martial artist, however, tends to go to the sumo.
What you described has nothing to do with the way he taught to throw the one inch punch. Bruce developed the one-inch punch by combining Wing Chun floating punch techniques with boxing techniques, in order to build up power in a very short distance. You don't punch "through", you punch "into" an opponent, using depth in the same way some people use extra force. Combined with the surge action invovled, you explode into your target, and you don't go "through", you go at a very precice depth. Going through robs your stike of power, in the same way that overpenetration loses a lot of power from a bullet. If I do the technique incorrectly, I punch through, and the other guy goes flying. If I do it correctly, he falls down as he tries to reinflate his lungs. (And no, I don't do it correctly except by accident. Which is why I need practice.)
A martial art semantic debate. Wunderbar. Next.
Cain wrote:A sumo in a fight with a standard martial artist, however, tends to go to the sumo.
Whoa! When did they develop a standard for martial artists?
Sumo are not taught how to fight (in any traditional interpretation of the word)... they are taught techniques on how to win at their sport. Just like a football player (Particularly linemen) would learn techniques to succeed in their sport. Those skills up against a martial artist of a decent level of skill are not going to be that effective. Just being big and muscled does no give an automatic advantage.
*ties up Daki's fingers for the remainder of this thread*
It's for your own good.
<center><b><font size=1><font color="#FF9900">"Invaders blood marches through my veins, like giant radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!" -Zim</font></font></b></center>
I still think that Street Samurai can beat the piss out of physads...
_<font color=#5c7898>Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit.</font>
<font color=red>It's funny how lately it seems, that I'm left alone with just my dreams,
and even though my dreams are few; it's funny how they're all of you!
- The Love of My Life</font>
59 or 60, so 44-45 years ago. You were, what, 35 or so at the time?
A lot younger than that, actually.
Sumo are not taught how to fight (in any traditional interpretation of the word)... they are taught techniques on how to win at their sport.
And much of that technique turns around and direcly translates into effective ways of hurting people. Certainly more so than many of the "sport" schools floating around in the USA these days. I'd bet on a sumo over a McDojo black belt any day of the week.
Sumo are not taught how to fight (in any traditional interpretation of the word)... they are taught techniques on how to win at their sport.
I'd bet on a sumo over a McDojo black belt any day of the week.
I'd bet on any professional - well if it's not 'fighter', then, uh, 'aggressive assertor of one's body mass into space occupied by another' - over a McDojo. Hell, I'd bet on just about any large guy over a McDojo.
59 or 60, so 44-45 years ago. You were, what, 35 or so at the time?
A lot younger than that, actually.
How old were you in 1960? And which of the men in that picture did you train with? For how long? I mean, come now: your qualifications are a central plank of your defense. You can hardly think we'll take your word for things that run counter to our own experience simply by saying, "I'm really old," and "One of these guys taught me something."
...or you shouldn't let yourself get into pointless arguments with your archnemesis, which have caused for heavy disruptions of the board's functionality due to increasing childnishness, so just let it go.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
<center><b><font size=1><font color="#FF9900">"Invaders blood marches through my veins, like giant radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!" -Zim</font></font></b></center>
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Hey hey hey, I'm 3PO's arch nemis... nemi... thingy, as has been established over the years already. Only these days, we don't bother arguing. This is because I realise that my side of the argument is always right, whereas 3PO is under the delusion that he's correct. As he's obviously loopy, I figure it's just not worth arguing about these days.
I'd bet on any professional - well if it's not 'fighter', then, uh, 'aggressive assertor of one's body mass into space occupied by another' - over a McDojo. Hell, I'd bet on just about any large guy over a McDojo.
No kidding. The sad part is, there's a lot more McDojos out there than good ones.
Even skilled fighters have issues with guys who are a lot bigger than they are. I spent some time doing light sparring with a guy who was 7'5" (Aaron Meisner, for those of you who knew him-- he passed away due to conditions related to gigantism some years ago), and while I *could* beat him, his reach gave me fits. Combine size with raw mass, a lot of fat overlaying a lot of muscle, and decent skills, and you're in for one hell of a match. Add to this the McDojo factor, and the odds of any given black belt being able to beat a sumo really dwindles.
Then let's start comparing things properly. Don't say average sumo versus average martial artist unless, by martial artist, you are saying one that does not come from a McDojo.
It's *still* not a fair comparison, at least in this country. The "average" sumo has been trainin since he was a small child. The "average" martial artist in this country trains twice a week, and started less than five years ago (probably less than 3, many less than 18 months). They'd get killed going up against a sumo.
The average "black belt", ignoring McDojos, is still nothing special. They're good at what they do, but only at this level are they being taught to realize what it exactly is that they know. Some of them have been in intensive sparring, some are just starting to try their techniques in a quasi-realistic situations. The average sumo, however, has been training for 5-10 years, has a slap that could knock an ox silly, and has been punched and slapped around repeatedly. He's been in match after match after match, which might not be a perfect street simulation, but isn't much worse than the point-sparring matches so prevalent in even self-defense schools; and is a lot more applicable.
Start crossing into expert and above, and then the odds shift somewhat. UFC fighters have the equivalent of multiple black belts, which puts them above the average sumo. (Incidentally, only average sumos enter UFC-style games. The truly skilled ones don't bother, simply because they don't need to; they're worshipped as sports stars in Japan and have their own groupies!) Even so, the other guys fighting sumos tend to be very wary, and they don't ever try for gut shots-- they go for the nose, the throat, or the knees (if it's allowed)-- places where there *isn't* a lot of body fat.
Cain wrote:...they don't ever try for gut shots-- they go for the nose, the throat, or the knees (if it's allowed)-- places where there *isn't* a lot of body fat.
You'll also notice that none of those places have much muscle around them either.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
It's *still* not a fair comparison, at least in this country. The "average" sumo has been trainin since he was a small child. The "average" martial artist in this country trains twice a week, and started less than five years ago (probably less than 3, many less than 18 months). They'd get killed going up against a sumo.
So then we compare Expert to Expert. Nothing in your post supports the theory that a Martial Artist can't beat a Sumo.
You'll also notice that none of those places have much muscle around them either.
The throat does, but not the same as the arm or shoulder, I'll admit. But you'll see people attack arms before they try and attack the gut, especially on a large guy.
So then we compare Expert to Expert. Nothing in your post supports the theory that a Martial Artist can't beat a Sumo.
Never claimed that. Just pointed out that on average, the sumo's got one hell of an advantage, due to the body fat. Once we cross into expert territory, things change dramatically, and it becomes more about individual skill than body composition. Sumos still have an edge, but they need to know how it use it better than the other guy.
I dunno Cain. I have a general idea of how bullets work, and large bodies might cover up more vital organs, but there's a lot of water in that mass, still.
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
You'll also notice that none of those places have much muscle around them either.
The throat does, but not the same as the arm or shoulder, I'll admit. But you'll see people attack arms before they try and attack the gut, especially on a large guy.
Incorrect. There is a portion as the base of the neck where it meets the collarbone where there is no muscle (or so little as to be insignificant). It's a key target for a finger strike.
Also, your average person on the street will, usually, try to tackle the oppoent to the ground to start and take a superior mounted posture to strike from.
Incorrect. There is a portion as the base of the neck where it meets the collarbone where there is no muscle (or so little as to be insignificant).
Which is what I mean by "not the same as the arm or shoulder".
{quote]Also, your average person on the street will, usually, try to tackle the oppoent to the ground to start and take a superior mounted posture to strike from.[/quote]
Actually, your average person on the street will, usually, charge with a wild haymaker. Most fights end up on the ground because both parties try this, and knock themselves over. You're correct from that point onwards, though.
And if we're discussing ground fighting-- while strength plays a very important role, leverage and mass are even more important. Fat can be an edge here, since it gives you more mass to throw around.
Cain wrote:And if we're discussing ground fighting-- while strength plays a very important role, leverage and mass are even more important. Fat can be an edge here, since it gives you more mass to throw around.
Muscle, however, can be a better edge under those circumstances, since it gives you both mass to throw around - more of it, actually, than fat would, per cubic inch - and additional strength.
Cain wrote:And if we're discussing ground fighting-- while strength plays a very important role, leverage and mass are even more important. Fat can be an edge here, since it gives you more mass to throw around.
But we're not talking ground fighting. It was a statement that the average person will try and tackle someone to the ground in a fight. That's all.
Cain, I've been in a lot of street fights. Way more then my fair share. And 9 times out of ten, they try to push me or tackle me first. Of course, that's just my experience. Maybe your own extensive experience is different. *shrug*
Pax Romana, Motherfucker. Breaker of unbreakable things.
Not to mention slow you down, give you a severe disadvantage to momentum, pumping out more sweat to keep the body cool due to extremes being put on the organs inside thus wearing out or overheating before your opponent.
Yup. A definite advantage.
But I bow to your superior wisdom/experience Cain because you know and have done everything that trumps anything anyone else says no matter what. BECAUSE CAIN IS GOD! Don't you know he made the world too!? It's also his experience that the world goes 'round and 'round! Stupid ignorant masses!!!
<center><b><font size=1><font color="#FF9900">"Invaders blood marches through my veins, like giant radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!" -Zim</font></font></b></center>
Bishop wrote:Cain, I've been in a lot of street fights. Way more then my fair share. And 9 times out of ten, they try to push me or tackle me first. Of course, that's just my experience. Maybe your own extensive experience is different. *shrug*
Not sure I've been in the same number of fights as Bishop, but that's been my experience as well. And those few who do throw a punch will go for the head 90%+ of the time.
I love when they try to punch my head. I just drop my skull. Sure, it hurts my head a little..but not near as much as it does their hand. Course, I've regretted that a couple times, too. Had some opponents who *gasp* knew what they were doing, and when they hit my head, it /fragging hurt/. Course, that made me hit them harder. :cyber
Pax Romana, Motherfucker. Breaker of unbreakable things.
I'll throw a feint to the head just to get their guard up tight so it blocks their view from what I'm really trying to do. Open palms strikes are good for shots to the side of the head.
Gunny wrote:But I bow to your superior wisdom/experience Cain because you know and have done everything that trumps anything anyone else says no matter what. BECAUSE CAIN IS GOD!
Come on, Gunny. Don't hold back so much. Tell him how you really feel.
_There are some who say that Time is itself a hammer: that each slow second marks another tap that makes big rocks into little rocks, waterfalls into canyons, cliffs into beaches.
There are some who say that Time is instead a blade. They see the dance of its razored tip, poised like a venomous snake, forever ready to slay faster than the eye can see.
And there are some who say that Time is both hammer and blade.
They say the hammer is a sculptor's mallet, and the blade is a sculptor's chisel: that each stroke is a refinement, a perfecting, a discovery of truth and beauty within what would otherwise be blank and lifeless stone.
And I name this saying wisdom.
Wait, if so many people go for the head, does this make me a moron for aiming for the legs?
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing left to pursue." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo
Kneecap shots are good, but you need a strong kick. Kicks to the side of the kneecap and back are best, one being more damaging than the other. Back of the knee is best just for taking your prey to the floor, not disabling like the side kicks. There's nothing like kicking someone's knee into angles it was never made to go.
<center><b><font size=1><font color="#FF9900">"Invaders blood marches through my veins, like giant radioactive rubber pants! The pants command me! Do not ignore my veins!" -Zim</font></font></b></center>
A martial art semantic debate. Wunderbar. Next.
