[No flames]Cain/--cain--

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Sun May 09, 2004 1:45 pm

Anyone who posts to this thread must promise that they /will/ not flame, fillibust, threaten, carpet bomb, explode whatever. If you at any point feel that you are going to do any of the above, leave the thread, count to 10 and come back. If that doesn't help. /don't post./

Cain. I can already hear you laughing at the "no flames" part of this post since I am almost certain you feel that this is an outright flame to begin with. Yes, well, it is. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to burn more in order to contain the fire. And this fire has gotten big. Huge.

I am here as a member of the Bulldrek community. As myself and no one else. I am not here representing 32. I am not here representing Bethyaga, Cazmonster, Nexusvoid, any of them. I am not being asked to do this by anyone to do this. I am, howeve,r doing this for the board.

I was supposed to leave for a week, I couldn't, and when I see flashing pi, threads about banning the first person ever, or deleting posts (My fault, I freely admit, but in my defense, I've never seen a post so filled with b's in ST before. Kudos to whoever for the horizontal scroll thingy) that tells me that the board is somewhere strange. Yeah, some people are trying to go on like its not affecting anything, and more power to them. I can read it in peoples posts though, those this does affect seem to be forcing things. Trying to act like it doesn't bother them. /That/ is not fair. Not to them, not to the other people who are reading their posts and don't care about this whole situation.

so here's the deal. Welcome to Bulldrek's home court. Here we are, the community right here, and I'm, me, a member of that community, offering you a place to use your voice. Here, you can even have the ball, if you want it. However, Cain, I need you to be specific, straightforward, and above all, yourself. List your grievances if you want. List your accusations, list citing information /here/. Leave it out of all the other threads. Let the discussions everywhere else continue, while we contain this /issue/ to one thread. Trust me on this, it won't get ignored /here/. Everyone will stop by from miles around. They can't let go. Just like I can't let go.

I put to much into this place, I'm /not/ going to let go.

You've said we've treated you differently. I don't see how. You might as well start over from the beginning and explain it to me slowly. Maybe I'll get it this time around.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Sun May 09, 2004 2:07 pm

If this turns into another Cain is evil thread, I'm smiley pi-ing it.

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Sun May 09, 2004 2:08 pm

No, see, that's my whole point. I'm trying to /not/ turn this into one of those threads. If people can't discuss it rationally here, with everyone present, then there's probably some deeper discussion that has to go on. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Sun May 09, 2004 2:10 pm

You're damn straight it's not turning into one of those threads, because if it does, I'm smiley pi-ing it!

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Sun May 09, 2004 2:15 pm

Good point

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Sun May 09, 2004 2:24 pm

You're a whore Eliahad

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Sun May 09, 2004 9:53 pm

Defers to Thorn. Will not discuss here.

--Cain-- · Post by **--Cain--** » Sun May 09, 2004 9:55 pm

Very simple. Thorn has convince me that respect is too much to ask for Bulldrek as a community. So, I'll put it this way-- in SST, we all agree to be civil. Honor system only; no mod influences or anything, just self-policing. We all agree to can the flames,snide insults, and rabid attempts to sidetrack threads. Should a thread degenerate, we allow Bulldrek entropy to take effect on it. Once it's clear that a thread is irretrieavably broken, we allow Salv's "Carpet bombing". Until that point, we all agree to handle each thread politely and civilly.

I'm not asking for any apologies from anyone, or that people come and grovel. I'm just pointing out that Bulldrek has gone downhill significantly, if one member can feel so alientated that a fillibuster becomes a needed tactic to highlight the issue. We can stop it, if we all-- myself included!-- agree to start playing nice.

I will stop the fillibuster and edit all the extraneous posts, when I have an agreement from the other principals involved. I'm going to handle this as professionally as a Congressman.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sun May 09, 2004 9:59 pm

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally will leave this board forever before I agree to limit my freedom of speech to "kindness under the barrel of a gun."

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Sun May 09, 2004 10:03 pm

You are asking us to turn Semi-Serious Topics into Serious Topics? I cannot agree to that. Second, you're asking for self-policing, something that has always been present. There /are/ no moderators, no censors. Unless an overwhelming majority asks for something, nothing can happen here.

It would be a shame to lose one member. But to remove all the lightness from this forum until we 'vote on a broken thread' is even worse.

I do not agree to your terms.

--Cain-- · Post by **--Cain--** » Sun May 09, 2004 10:07 pm

Who says we need to remove all lightness and fun? As the saying goes, "it's all lightness and fun until someone gets hurt". We go ahead and joke, and jest, and have fun with one another on this BBS. However, once things turn nasty, people turn to personal attacks instead of levity, that's when we have to see if the thread might be best left to die. I'm as guilty of that as the next Bulldrekker-- continuing when I really should not have, and letting myself be baited into worse and worse actions.

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Sun May 09, 2004 10:08 pm

*echoes Eli*

And besides, who makes the decision that a thread is no longer worthy and deserves to be carpet bombed. One man's broken thread is another's bread and butter.

--Cain-- · Post by **--Cain--** » Sun May 09, 2004 10:20 pm

Then what would you suggest? I'm open to suggestions.

Thorn · Post by **Thorn** » Sun May 09, 2004 10:23 pm

--Cain-- wrote:Thorn has convince me that respect is too much to ask for Bulldrek as a community.

I beg your pardon??

Where on earth did I say that Bulldrek was incapable of respect? How on earth, based on my post, would you come to the conclusion that respect is something Bulldrek cannot give?

Oh, I'll readily agree that concensus is something Bulldrek is not capable of, if that's what you're referring to. But that doesn't, to me, seem to be what you're saying. What I'm reading (and do correct me if I'm wrong) is that Bulldrekkers are incapable of showing respect to others. Which, frankly, is bullshit.

The difference between Bulldrek and other boards is that when respect is given, it's real. It's not something we mimic in order to toe some moderator line. Respect on Bulldrek is, imo, worth more than respect on other boards, because here it is only ever given freely. There are no requirements that we all respect each other.

And once again (as I mentioned at the beginning of my post in the Embassy), what I'm referring to here is the sort of enduring respect that comes from long-term association with a person or group.

If you're talking about respectful treatment... sure, I'd agree that the world in general could use more of that - Bulldrek is no exception. But to demand it.... Look. I, at least, am not saying that we should treat everyone like shit until they survive the shit-gauntlet and /then/ maybe we'll treat them like a human being. And for the record, even the few people making noises to that effect, if you think about their actual behavior here, you'd realize they don't really mean what they're saying.

But if a person comes here and, after having received their fair share of respectful treatment that any mature, socially adjusted person offers any stranger, insists on doing things which make people respect them less rather than more... well, eventually they're going to reap what they sow.

Which leaves me curious how you would propose we handle that kind of thing.

lordhellion · Post by **lordhellion** » Sun May 09, 2004 10:48 pm

I'm not going to pretend to know all the logistics of what's happened here to spark these threads (anyone wishing to PM me a rough unopinionated summary can guarantee it will be observed), but from what I see a lot of the controversy comes from the concept of respect.

Let me call your attention to something, an old thread: Why Parallel Dimensions and Alternate Realities Are Bunk

This was maybe my second or third thread on Bulldrek. I'll save you the burden of reading the play-by-play, but basically I put my cards on the table with a theory I had been working on involving space, timeflow, and perception--something I still feel was a pretty gutsy move considering I had next to no concept of how the people on this board would react.

The result? Some beratement, some insults. Logic countering my ideas. Valuble input, non-valuble blows.

But here's the point. For everyone that told me I was full of shit and worked vehemently to disproove my processes, I thank each and every one of them. They told me what they were truly feeling an thinking, which is nearly impossible to find on the internet. I'm not a 'net jockey. I only use one e-mail account, I don't use IRC or IM's, only belong to three forums, of which only one do I bother to post one, this one.

The reason I choose this one is for that honesty, as thrown in your face as it may be. The anonymous nature of the internet has caused most of its inhabitants to become faceless individuals joining into a collective mass that for the most part acts the same, thinks the same, uses the same jokes, has the same tastes.

Here there is truth, individuality, and, altough it may not be in a form that is often thought about, respect. The respect inherent in Bulldrek is that everyone is allowed (and encouraged) to be themselves. Sure, when we hit Bulldrek Proper we revert into clincially insane action figure representations of ourselves, but for the most part we are who we are, and allow each other to be that person.

Looking back on this rant, I'm not sure that I really made a point, but hopefully I provided some food for thought. I just implore that everyone work to keep Bulldrek from losing what it is that it brings to the table in a large cybernetic community of indifferent and indistinguishable entities.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sun May 09, 2004 11:04 pm

This is a free-speech message forum. We value free speech so highly that we are willing to allow people to make it difficult or impossible to contribute to or even read the material that is posted here. We will not limit speech to "polite speech." [Although such a proposal could certainly be made in The Embassy and be voted on by the users of the community; any decision thus made would be final, even one limiting speech.]

In fact, the limitation of free speech to polite speech is one of the reasons - okay, THE reason - this board was started in the first place. I cannot imagine why anyone would seriously propose that we reverse that decision so that one person does not feel so put-upon, particularly when the only actions which prompted serious insult were the recent "protests."

As an alternative suggestion, I would recommend that if people don't want to be insulted, they don't do things worthy of insult, and/or simply accept what insults may come. I get insulted quite often, by opponents, opposition, and even Crazy Elf. I have seen no insults directed toward any members of the board who were not specifically taking action to infuriate the community that would be worthy of any kind of protest, much less the most damaging protest this board has ever seen. I welcome correction, but I read pretty carefully, and I simply haven't seen anything that warrants this kind of behavior.

Can anyone find a case of a severe personal insult toward Cain from before the "protests?" Anything anyone had done that "being polite" would prevent? If not, it would seem the protests and the solution to them offered by Cain are not in any way connected, which makes this solution even more of a blackmail/terrorism/ransom sort of situation.

No one else is protesting the rudeness being displayed toward them - not even people whose every thread is criticized, like Ancient History, who I feel has more reason to protest than anyone else - so one must question if it is the offenders or the offended who have caused - or intended - any insult.

Anyway, I certainly promise never to treat anyone in any other way than the manner in qhich they deserve to be treated. [Actually, I'm a /little/ more nice to most people than I think they deserve, but as CykoSpin pointed out, I'm more than a touch meaner than the average poster.] If someone is stupid, I will call them stupid. If someone is a jew-lover, I will call them a jew-lover. If someone is poor, I will call them poor. This is "truth," and if truth is not protected by free speech, then I feel something is very, very wrong.

If someone insults you and it's not true, they are wrong, and you have no reason to take offense. If someone insults you and it is true, then the fault is not theirs, but your own.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Sun May 09, 2004 11:05 pm

That's a great post, lordhellion. Amen.

crone · Post by **crone** » Sun May 09, 2004 11:54 pm

3278 wrote:Can anyone find a case of a severe personal insult toward Cain from before the "protests?" Anything anyone had done that "being polite" would prevent? If not, it would seem the protests and the solution to them offered by Cain are not in any way connected, which makes this solution even more of a blackmail/terrorism/ransom sort of situation.

Are you for real? I can find them for you, if you really don't remember them.

Cash · Post by **Cash** » Sun May 09, 2004 11:58 pm

I doubt it's very hard to find personal insults from all sides... The more thin skinned a person is, the more they're going to see everything as a personal insult, both veiled and overt.

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:07 am

Crone: To echo, in a way, what Cash said, I can find just as many going the other way. What happened /in those threads/ was the result of a long history, in fact, one that had never blown out to the proportion that occured over the last two weeks. In the past, those kinds of threads would've moved to the bottom of the pile and been forgotten. /In those threads/ there is nothing to begin with that was disproportiante to the history that had already been established.

Salvation122 · Post by **Salvation122** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:35 am

3278 wrote:Can anyone find a case of a severe personal insult toward Cain from before the "protests?" Anything anyone had done that "being polite" would prevent?

I wrote:You know, Cain, a bunch of us were talking in IRC last night, and the consensus was that you're a fucking moron and an asshole.

TLM wrote:Sorry Cain, you are still 0wned. Now go away and let the adults discuss the topic seriously.

That's all I've got. However...

If someone insults you and it's not true, they are wrong, and you have no reason to take offense. If someone insults you and it is true, then the fault is not theirs, but your own.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:38 am

crone wrote:Are you for real? I can find them for you, if you really don't remember them.

I am absolutely for real. While I think it would be useful to see an itemization of what Cain feels are the insults to which he has been subjected, the analysis of an intelligent and unbiased user would likely be even more useful. For that matter, it would be amusing - I just read through a fair portion of "Hard Work" - to see an itemization of the insults from both sides, as I'm fairly sure more insults come from Cain than from his opposition, by a fair margin. [Particularly if you consider using my first name in contravention of perhaps 50 requests not to an "insult," which I don't.]

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:46 am

An analysis of the veracity of Cain's claims that his posts are always neutral until someone else stops being neutral might be interesting, as well. I was just reading <a href="http://www.bulldrek.com/viewtopic.php?t ... rt=0">this thread</a> and noticing patterns of escalation which seem to contradict his claims. Ultimately, I feel that's a judgement each person has to make for themselves, although I would love to find someone rational with far too much time on their hands to come in and give the viewpoint of a completely outside party on some of these controversial threads; I think many people might be surprised at what someone truly unbiased would say to them.

The Eclipse · Post by **The Eclipse** » Mon May 10, 2004 12:48 am

Very simple. Thorn has convince me that respect is too much to ask for Bulldrek as a community

Hah!, that's hilarious. It's amazing how cain can completely ignore the point of a post and bend it to (bending the point doesn't even do cain justice, he makes origami out of it) so that it better suits his "Oh woe is me, I'm the poor and downtrodden. I'm a terrorist, but don't blame me, it's not my fault" line of thought.

EVERYONE who has been here for more than a few months, or maybe weeks, has been in a personality clash with one or more members of this board. I personally have traded insults that went waaaaaaay beyond simple discussion and into the realms of pure childish one-upmanship with people in the past. (deev and CE come immediately to mind)

BUT, in the end I still have fantastic respect for nearly everyone here because I feel that most everyone here is, when you come down to it, pretty decent and good people (even CE, occasionally).

I feel that respect is bulldrek's most valuable commodity. It's not something that is going to be given just because someone erronously feels that they get shit on more than average. At least by myself, Cain's proposal is rejected. As I said, no negotiation with hostage takers.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 1:03 am

I have a whacky proposal: what if Cain stops bombing threads and instead uses that time to build his case? If he has been insulted without reason and has tried to utilize rational means of preventing those insults, he should be able to find multiple instances of each; providing those specific instances and links to the threads in question [as well as page numbers, at least; linking to an individual post is a little harder], then we could actually have a serious, rational conversation with evidence and everything. It seems like, if the problem is people being irrational, the solution isn't more irrationality. If the problem is people being rude, then the solution shouldn't be even more overwhelming rudeness. As a community, we have [what I feel is probably an unhealthy level of] respect for evidence, and not very much respect for people mucking with readability.

So why doesn't Cain present his evidence for our consideration? If the problem is as drastic as he percieves it to be, then the truth of his claims should be self-evident given evidence of them.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Mon May 10, 2004 1:48 am

Is not replying to anyone part of your protest Cain?

If so how can we expect any of this to be resolved. Or is it only certain people are now allowed to speak to you, if thats the case do Liniah, DV8 or those whom you obviously consider to be somehow better than the others have to present both sides of the issue? That hardly seems fair to them.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:16 am

Serious Paul wrote:Is not replying to anyone part of your protest Cain?

Well, it /is/ Mother's Day, and a Sunday, to boot. He posted this afternoon, but may be spending the rest of his day - 3 hours behind us, remember - with his family, and not online.

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:18 am

*whistles*

We're getting borderline. I know it's a heated topic. Just, please, count to 10 before you post.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:25 am

I have a counterproposal to that which Cain made earlier.

1. Cain will send the US$50 he owes me.
2. I recieve the US$50 he owes me.
3. I will publicly acknowledge reciept of the US$50 he owes me.
4. I will remove any reference to Cain from my signature.
5. Cain will cease his protests and edit his posts to remove the protest content. [He is, of course, free to do this at any earlier time.]
6. I will rescind my pledge to not speak to Cain.
7. I will affirm never to say anything untrue about anyone on this board. [In the event that I do, once evidence is presented, I will publicly apologize and withdraw my comments.]
8. I will encourage the rest of the users to join me in speaking only truth about persons on the board.

If this is acceptable to Cain, it is also acceptable to me.

Kai · Post by **Kai** » Mon May 10, 2004 2:57 am

Huh. That scrollfix is pretty badass, thanks for making me search that out. No, I don't have anything else useful to say on the topic at hand.

JohnnyRico · Post by **JohnnyRico** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:01 am

3278 wrote:
Serious Paul wrote:Is not replying to anyone part of your protest Cain?
Well, it /is/ Mother's Day, and a Sunday, to boot. He posted this afternoon, but may be spending the rest of his day - 3 hours behind us, remember - with his family, and not online.

I think, though that's probably an untrue statement, that Paul might be referring to Cain's patent style of ignoring people's questions when he doesn't like them. Several times I've seen him only argue the points that he's not completely outgunned at, in what may be the hope that they will be forgotten in the "heated discussion" that his latest post would produce. Although I could be all washed up here. If I am, please correct me Paul.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:02 am

3278 wrote:Actually, I'm a /little/ more nice to most people than I think they deserve, but as CykoSpin pointed out, I'm more than a touch meaner than the average poster.

Well, that isn't entirely what I meant. I was referring to a tendency I've seen for you to be equally as insulting as your 'antagonist', but then act as if you somehow believe that you've taken the "high road" in the argument.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 6:15 am

Oh. I don't think I've taken the high road because I'm less insulting than my opponent; I think I've taken the high road because I'm right.[/i] Call that what you will.

--Cain-- · Post by **--Cain--** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:21 am

Sorry for the delay-- like 32 said, it's mothers day, I have studies to do, and I'm several hours behind the rest of you.

Tell you what. Here's what I'm thinking is fair. First of all, as a side note-- 32, I never promised you US 50, I promised to send you a fifty dollar bill. I had the envelope and monopoly money all ready to send, then I saw your post. However, knowing how broke you are, I'll make this much of a counter-counter proposal.

I don't have any money at the moment, but I will make it a point to donate, via paypal, a certain sum of money to Bulldrek as a whole. This will take about a week or so; if someone would kindly post an email to send it to, I'll see that something gets sent within seven days. I will also edit out the pi-string in Word Association. The next step is for everyone with anti-Cain insults to remove them from their sigs. We'll finish the rest within the week.

Sound good?

crone · Post by **crone** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:24 am

<edit>OK, Cain has made this post unnecessary.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:47 am

--Cain-- wrote:Tell you what. Here's what I'm thinking is fair. First of all, as a side note-- 32, I never promised you US 50, I promised to send you a fifty dollar bill. I had the envelope and monopoly money all ready to send, then I saw your post.

Cain wrote:I'll bet fifty bucks that in the time it took you to read that sentence, you shifted your weight at least two times.

Cain wrote:Post your full name and snail-mail address on this thread, and I'll personally send you a fifty dollar bill.

--Cain-- wrote:I don't have any money at the moment, but I will make it a point to donate, via paypal, a certain sum of money to Bulldrek as a whole.

You owe me fifty dollars, Cain. That is a simple fact. You can mail it to me, you can donate it to the board, you can do whatever you choose, but no amount of intentional misleading changes the fact that you owe me fifty dollars.*

--Cain-- wrote:I will also edit out the pi-string in Word Association.

Then I do not accept. Word Association is not the bulk of the problem, and is not the worst case of your destruction. Understand that you have made necessary alterations to this board's layout which have made it uglier and unusable for many users. Understand that many people cannot load the threads you have damaged, and cannot know which threads you have "protested" in. Understand that asking you to edit these posts, and not simply removing the damaging content, is so obscenely tolerant as to make this board's users practically saintly, particularly given that some of the people who voted in favor of not removing the posts are the same people who cannot use the board because of them. You will edit all of the offending posts, or I, at least, will not agree to your terms.

--Cain-- wrote:The next step is for everyone with anti-Cain insults to remove them from their sigs.

I certainly can't speak for anyone else, and you must remember that users are free to put whatever they wish in their signatures. I hardly think that you, of all people, can object to signature content. You may negotiate with those users; I will even assist you in any way that I can. But you cannot demand this as a condition of "cease-fire."

*People might wonder why I make such a big deal out of this [beyond Cain's manipulation of words to somehow make "fifty dollar bill" mean "fifty fake dollars"]. I hope everyone understands that while perhaps fifty dollars doesn't mean much to you, to me it means food for three or four months.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon May 10, 2004 11:05 am

The next step is for everyone with anti-Cain insults to remove them from their sigs.

Prior to this statement, there was of course nothing in my Sig in reference to this situation.

Cain: You're a Whore

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 11:31 am

"Anyone who posts to this thread must promise that they /will/ not flame, fillibust, threaten, carpet bomb, explode whatever. If you at any point feel that you are going to do any of the above, leave the thread, count to 10 and come back. If that doesn't help. /don't post./"

crone · Post by **crone** » Mon May 10, 2004 11:43 am

Cash, Eli, you make good points. My understanding is that Cain is protesting the history of abusive behaviour, on all sides. He is proposing a bilateral disarmament, as it were. Since he knows that people wouldn't normally agree to play nice, he is trying to point out the problems with being inconsiderate and disrespectful of others, and give some incentive for reluctant parties, but the response is "It's OK to be a bit inconsiderate but Cain is just going too far."

That's my interpretation, anyway.

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon May 10, 2004 1:05 pm

"Anyone who posts to this thread must promise that they /will/ not flame, fillibust, threaten, carpet bomb, explode whatever. If you at any point feel that you are going to do any of the above, leave the thread, count to 10 and come back. If that doesn't help. /don't post./"

32 is a whore as well.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:02 pm

crone wrote:My understanding is that Cain is protesting the history of abusive behaviour, on all sides.

Thats absurd in my opinion. Are you saying Cain is protesting for me as well? For the rough shod treatment I too have received at times? I didn't ask him to stick up for me. I don't want him to.

As for his own treatment, please direct me to where in this board it says you are entitled to be treated as you please by others. Crone do you expect me to treat you nicely because you'll disable the board or do you expect me to speak to you civiliy,etc.. out of respect?

He is proposing a bilateral disarmament, as it were.

NO.HE.IS.NOT.

He is the only one armed. He is the only one disabling the board. He is the only not replying to other people.

Since he knows that people wouldn't normally agree to play nice...

They don't have to. This is not Live Journal or DSF.

he is trying to point out the problems with being inconsiderate and disrespectful of others...

No one asked him to. He is also not pointing anything out. He is being destructive, and threatening us.

and give some incentive for reluctant parties...

You mean THREATEN.

but the response is "It's OK to be a bit inconsiderate but Cain is just going too far."

Yup. Why is that hard to accept? Where is his consideration for others? How does he jsutify his behavior? He doesn't. He can't. He won't.

He is so busy attempting to corner one mans attention he is ignoring the rest of us. To his jeopardy.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Mon May 10, 2004 3:05 pm

Also Crone when I start smiley bombing Bulldrek in an attempt to force you to post the answers I want will you defend me, and my actions? After all there is no limit right? So when I start pasting a million smileys into every thread, will you defend me?

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:54 pm

3278 wrote:I think I've taken the high road because I'm right.[/i] Call that what you will.

Arrogance.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 6:06 pm

That is, indeed, what most wrong people call it.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:01 pm

How convenient of you to prove my point for me.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:05 pm

And you, mine, for me.

CykoSpin · Post by **CykoSpin** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:12 pm

Ah, the circular argument tactic. How fun.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:46 pm

Ah, the "Call it a Tactic" tactic. Seriously, what's the difference between arrogance and confidence? Arrogance is undeserved confidence, confidence when you don't have something to be confident in. I'm confident of my opinions and my facts, because I don't say things unless I'm pretty sure they're right; I'm really, really concerned with being right because I don't like people to see me being wrong, and because I value information - which means truth, rightness, that sort of thing - very very highly. That's one reason I don't mind admitting I'm wrong when I am: I actually /want/ people to prove me wrong if I'm wrong, or I'm going to run around being wrong, looking like an ass, and having incorrect information!

You think I'm arrogant because you think I don't have a reason to be confident. Hey, that's great. Show me why I don't have a reason to be confident. Don't just say - like you are now, effectively - "You're wrong." That doesn't help either of us, or anyone else! I'm going to continue walking around spreading wrongness and looking like an idiot. No good for me or the people who read or hear me. So if you think I'm wrong, correct me; show me the truth, and I'll gleefully accept it, because truth is more important to me than confidence.

Anyhow, I'm done railing this thread way off-topic. You can have the last public word, if you'd like to, whatever, maintain your own confidence. I'm confident enough that if I feel a need to correct you, I can do it privately without disrupting this thread any further.

crone · Post by **crone** » Mon May 10, 2004 11:22 pm

Serious Paul wrote:Thats absurd in my opinion. Are you saying Cain is protesting for me as well? For the rough shod treatment I too have received at times? I didn't ask him to stick up for me. I don't want him to.

Heh. That's one of the problems with what he's doing of course, that the board as a whole has determined that there isn't an issue. But certain individuals at certain times have had problems with the insults and incivility that is common in certain kinds of discussion. Their protests never get anywhere though. Cain thinks they are verbally bullied into giving up, so he is standing up for them as well as himself.

As for his own treatment, please direct me to where in this board it says you are entitled to be treated as you please by others. Crone do you expect me to treat you nicely because you'll disable the board or do you expect me to speak to you civiliy,etc.. out of respect?

This is a hard question for me to answer. I think that how person A treats person B has a lot more to do with person A's character with person B's.

NO.HE.IS.NOT.

He is the only one armed. He is the only one disabling the board. He is the only not replying to other people.

He is not the only one armed. You don't care, or notice, the effect your aggro has on others (I think).

He is the only one crashing browsers. But if you want the board to be a certain way, then it has been 'disabled' for a long time.

Aren't there 23 people supposedly not replying to him?

They don't have to. This is not Live Journal or DSF.

Fair enough. What if he wants it to be?

he is trying to point out the problems with being inconsiderate and disrespectful of others...
No one asked him to. He is also not pointing anything out. He is being destructive, and threatening us.

No one has to ask him to. He is pointing out by actions rather than words (I think this is a mistaken tactic, myself). Yes, rudeness and disrespect suck, don't they?

You mean THREATEN.

Yeah, OK.

but the response is "It's OK to be a bit inconsiderate but Cain is just going too far."
Yup. Why is that hard to accept? Where is his consideration for others? How does he jsutify his behavior? He doesn't. He can't. He won't.

I haven't said I don't accept it. I can see how from Cain's POV it's interesting how what everyone else does is OK, but what he does is wrong. I am trying to clarify why that might be (OK, so I'm not doing a good job, obviously).

Also Crone when I start smiley bombing Bulldrek in an attempt to force you to post the answers I want will you defend me, and my actions? After all there is no limit right? So when I start pasting a million smileys into every thread, will you defend me?

If it was up to me I would ban you, as I would Cain. Or ignore you, as I often do Cain. But if I see you making bits and pieces of a point over a number of different threads, while everyone else is going "WTF", I will try to clarify things. I'm not defending Cain's actions, but I think if people could see his point, it might help in coming to a solution. I might be totally wrong on that, of course.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon May 10, 2004 11:39 pm

Something I've been wondering about is this: most of the insults Cain is objecting to come at the end of 3 or 5 or 10 pages of round-and-round debating, and there's a clear and inevitable escalation. So why doesn't Cain, when things start getting uncomfortable for him, just say, "Hey, listen, man. I'm not in this to get insulted, and I think you're being insulting. So I'm done here; I enjoyed the conversation, but now I'm through."

He doesn't do that, though. He continues the escalation. Why? Because - get this - Cain comes here to vent his agression. I mean, we know that for a fact: he's made it very clear, in no uncertain terms, that he comes here for that reason, that he fights with people for that reason. How can you go someplace specifically to blow off steam and then be surprised when you get steam burns?

How about it, Cain?