"Hard Work"

[FlameBlade]

This is in reference to This section of thread about child porno

Cain's posts:

You got it. People who are lazy and successful are also called "Geniuses".

Okay, let's try this example: who's working harder, someone who spends all day coding a program, or someone who spends all day honing his skills on Evercrack?

"Thinking" jobs can be work; but I think you'll discover that most breakthroughs are developed not just by people who want to make things easier, but people who want to make things easier *and* have an enjoyable method to develop it. They don't just want to find an easier way to do things, they want to find a fun way of doing it.

I'm going to use Earl as an example. He loves to build big scientific toys that go boom. He hits on an idea for a railgun that will generate enough force to knock the planet out of orbit, using household current, and coincidentally has access to all the parts he needs. Now, which is he more likely to do: Spend months slaving away with a hammer, nails, and wrenches to put his device together; or spend months coding a computer simulation to blueprint his device, so he can put it together in a few days?

One involves hard labor, and lots of it. One involves him playing on a computer all day, doing something he enjoys. Which approach will he take?

Bethyaga:

Jesus, Cain, do you realize that a huge part of your troubles with the "hard work" portions of this thread stem directly from the fact that you chose to define "hard work" as "intensive physical labor," even though (quite clearly) no one else in the thread chose to define it that way?

Hard work is a very old phrase from back in the days when most work /was/ physical labor. But just to satisfy your perverse nitpicking joy at intellectual fisticuffs, go back and reread my posts or 32's or Flame's or anyone else's on the subject and substitute "applying yourself" for "hard work." Since that, or something close to it, is very clearly what everyone else meant by the phrase, and somehow only you seemed to have trouble deciphering that.

Cain:

No. They choose to define it as "unpleasant labor", as do I. Someone may apply themselves at being the best on Everquest, but who'd call that "hard work"?

I know thiat this seems silly, but I have a desire to call Cain out on this one. You make me wonder, Cain about this one.

If we were a bunch of lazy geniuses, then I must wonder how civilization reached the point that we did. From my understandings, Thomas Alva Edison is regarded to be a genius, because he invented countless different things. Also, he is quoted for:

Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration

Also, it's worthy looking at this webpage, for quotes from Thomas Edison.

I wonder how civilization would develop to this point without any inventions that were created by Edison. He worked hard to get things easier for us.

Now about Newton. Is he a genius? Seems to be a standard convention that he is a genius. He invented foundations of mathematics AND physics through careful research and publication of his works in a society that looks harshly on any works.

Now about Einstein. He's a genius, right? He may have done poorily in the school, but regarding physics, he did not skirt off on anything. He took what is there, and criticized everything that he did not agree with, or something that there is something that appeared to be flawed. He looked carefully at each cases. He wasn't looking for way to make things easier, but rather, looking for way to explain what is happening around us. Through his hard work, he managed to crank out theory of general relativity.

Now, I have presented three of many different cases that contradicts your assertion, Cain. Genius isn't about laziness, but rather, it's about how you do work in real life.

[Ancient History]

I've always considered genius as a greater ability to comprehend, interprate and extrapolate, myself.

Hard work depends on the person. I consider physically tedious labor hard work in the sense that it is physically difficult for me; I consider recoding all my pages hard work because of the size of the material and level of detail necessary; and I consider tricksy programming questions hard work because it tests my comprehension of the subject matter.

In the prior two cases, the work itself is simple, only the size of the exertion required makes it "hard." In the latter case, the actual exertion may be as simple as a few lines of code, but the mental gymnastics to get to those lines of code may be very difficult indeed.

[Thorn]

I'm personally inclined to agree with someone's (sorry, I forget who, if I had to guess I'd say Bethie's) suggestion that "hard work" is just a synonym for "applying oneself". And well, genius is something else entirely. I'd be comfortable, until someone offers a better option, to go with AnHi's description of genius. That's about how I've always thought of it, too.

Here's the thing, there are plenty of lazy geniuses out there. The thing is, we never hear about them. Why? They were lazy. We know about Edison and Newton and Einstein because they were geniuses who applied themselves.

I'll use myself as an example: I've always been the kind of person who can absorb information without even half trying, and in school I always did well on tests, because if I knew even a kernel of the material, I could stretch that into something that sounded good to the teacher. I'm also very good (if I may be so bold) at taking Info A and Info B and working out how they might effect each other/interrelate/whatever. My problem is that, well, I'm lazy. Really lazy.

In high school, one of my best friends did not test well. Ever. She worked her ass off, every day of her high school career. She got better grades than I did in practically every class, though when it came time for SATs and the like, I left her in the dust.

I'm afraid I've lost touch with my friend in the past couple years, but we did stay in touch for a long time before that, and last I knew, well... she'd left me in the dust. She finished her bachelor's degree and was pursuiing a master's, last I knew. She was working on her career before I even got a job that could possibly turn /into/ a career (and it's not really much of one, at that). I'm sure by now she's either finished her master's degree or is darn close to it, and I'm equally certain that she's a lot further "ahead" in her life than I am in mine. And it's not because she's a genius, it's because she applied herself. She always has. Meanwhile, I'm a dumb medical transcriptionist who's not even fully qualified to be one (i.e. I can't seem to get a job outside the specialized area I've fallen into because I never went to transcription school) and still doesn't even really know what she wants to do with her life.

So, who's the genius? Easily, I've got a higher IQ than my friend. But if either of us is going to become famous for having done something, it's probably going to be her (well, unless the twins grow up to rule the world with twin iron fists, of course).

[Cash]

I'm equally certain that she's a lot further "ahead" in her life than I am in mine.

I understand the point that you're making and it's a good one (I have a friend in the same boat). I just take some offense at this sentence. If you were a lot further "ahead," then we might not have known you and that'd be a tragedy to me. You went down a different path, dear.

[Thorn]

I'm equally certain that she's a lot further "ahead" in her life than I am in mine.

I understand the point that you're making and it's a good one (I have a friend in the same boat). I just take some offense at this sentence. If you were a lot further "ahead," then we might not have known you and that'd be a tragedy to me. You went down a different path, dear.

Oh, don't be that nice to the pregnant lady! She's emotionally unbalanced as it is.

And I hear what you're saying. I've taken offense at things like that too - Caz has a cousin who's a super-high-powered lawyer making gobs of money all the time and all that stuff, but I'd defy anyone to tell me that guy is happier than we are. So yeah, there are plenty of ways to define success, and I do think most of them are perfectly valid and true. But in the whole "hard work" discussion that this thread stemmed from, the only kind of "success" that was being discussed there was professional/financial/educational advancement, not really anything else. So, you know, I was sticking with that.

[EDIT: Hey! I just noticed - in fact, that's exactly why I had "ahead" in quotes originally. Because I was speaking of a kind of success that I don't really think covers all the aspects of being truly successful in life.]

[Cash]

But in the whole "hard work" discussion that this thread stemmed from, the only kind of "success" that was being discussed there was professional/financial/educational advancement, not really anything else. So, you know, I was sticking with that.

*nods* I just had to point it out. I went to a private hs notorious for pumping out movers and shakers in all aspects of life (with a complete "old boys network" to go with it. I've thought about your post a lot for similar reasons).

[EDIT: Hey! I just noticed - in fact, that's exactly why I had "ahead" in quotes originally. Because I was speaking of a kind of success that I don't really think covers all the aspects of being truly successful in life.]

I figured that. Hence why I did the same.

[Ghotty]

To me, hard physical labor, is not unpleasent. I find it to be satesfying. What I dislike is mindless rote, and not knowing what to do. When I don't know what to do, I tend to get distracted and not do shit.

[Cain]

I don't know as much about Edison, but I've been reading up on Tesla recently. Tesla was the one who actually invented much of what we depend on today-- the transistor, alternating current, the radio, and so on. Tesla lambasted Edison as a mere inventor, and not a genius. In Tesla's case, he did most of his work simply because it looked interesting to him, or so he could find an easier way of doing things. Later in life, he set out to do things just so he could make for some big publicity stunts.

I'm also not as up on Newton's life, but Einstien is a classic example of the "lazy genius". He was very poor at basic arithmetic, simply because he found it boring. The advanced theoretical physics and maths, that he found to be interesting-- according to what I've read, he *enjoyed* doing that sort of thing, about as much as some people enjoy playing Everquest.

Part of the definition of "hard work" isn't the amount of exertion required, but how unpleasant the labor is. It may take just as much exertion for someone to shave five strokes off his golf game as it does for someone to debug a section of code; but unless the first guy is a golf pro, we won't consider his effort to be "hard work".

[Eliahad]

Why not? Why can't the amateur golfer put in hard work, working on his golf game? He goes to the range, buys a couple hundred golf balls for a few hours. He's making a concerted effort to achieve a goal. That's the part you're missing.

Me, I find cello playing highly enjoyable, and I am persuing it professionally. I put in, on average, four or five hours of good hard practice a day, every bit of it being hard work. I have been known to sweat at the end of practicing from the sheer quantity of concentration I'm putting into it and not a single bit of it is unpleasant. Every ounce of that practicing is towards making my playing or the piece I'm working on better, and that's hard work.

I also like writing and I'm pretty good at it. I'm not great, but I'm getting better. I try and put in a couple of hard hours of work a day just on writing. Sometimes I'm just freeflowing stuff that isn't exerting anything at all, but I always try and make it better, and that also takes 'work.'

Getting projects done on a tight schedule takes hard work.

Teaching is probably the hardest work there is, and you're not physically exerting ourself as much as that golfer, well, sometimes you may be.

Hard Work is hardly dependant on enjoyment factor.

And why are all your geniuses scientists? I think they may all be very smart people, but they're not the only geniuses out there. Mozart was a genius, probably /the/ laziest genius out there. Beethoven was a genius as well, but his art came through agony and hard work. Picasso, Michaelangelo. Shakespeare. Tolkein. These are the people who defined eras, and are just as much a genius as Einstein and Newton.

[Cipher]

I don't know as much about Edison, but I've been reading up on Tesla recently. Tesla was the one who actually invented much of what we depend on today-- the transistor, alternating current, the radio, and so on. Tesla lambasted Edison as a mere inventor, and not a genius. In Tesla's case, he did most of his work simply because it looked interesting to him, or so he could find an easier way of doing things. Later in life, he set out to do things just so he could make for some big publicity stunts.

If half the urban legends are true, Edison went out of his way to actively discredit Tesla and his discoveries, later in both of their careers. This may have been an early form of retroactive continuity, following the days when Tesla actually worked briefly with Edison.

[Bethyaga]

He's making a concerted effort to achieve a goal.

Maybe this phrase has already been batted around before on this topic, but this is the first time I've taken note of the exact phrasing.

What a great way to define exactly what I meant by "applying oneself" and by extension "hard work." That is truly truly excellent.

[Thorn]

He's making a concerted effort to achieve a goal.

What a great way to define exactly what I meant by "applying oneself" and by extension "hard work." That is truly truly excellent.

I sort of noticed that too - that "making a concerted effort to achieve a goal" really is probably the best definition of "hard work" most of us have seen.

And I have to agree with Eli that not all "hard work" has to be unpleasant. Or rather, the level of enjoyment one derives or does not derive from one's efforts should not be the only or even the major determining factor of whether something counts as "hard work". I know in my own job, there are plenty of times when I've been working my ass off (and as a transcriptionist/office grunt, it's not like this is grueling labor) but I also am getting a measure of satisfaction out of what I'm doing. I mean, why should my efforts be devalued because I gain some sense of accomplishment or purpose from them?

I also have to agree with Ghotty, that often hard physical labor can be the most satisfying sort of work there is. Even non-physical work that shares qualities in common with hard physicial labor can be very satisfying.

I know for myself, I feel a greater sense of accomplishment on those days I've been able to type a ton of reports than on days I haven't had time to type many reports because I've been busy answering the phone, packing up slides to be sent out, troubleshooting, etc. On the latter kind of day, I sit down at my desk at the end of it, exhausted and knowing that I've worked my ass off, but without anything concrete to point to as "There. That is what I did today." On the other hand, when I've been free to just type my little fingers off, at the end of it I have a whopping stack of reports that I can point to say, "Look at all that I did."

It's that tangible quality of the work that, imo, makes physical labor often more satisfying than non-physicial labor. "See that stack of wood? I chopped all that" or "See that giant hole? I dug that with this shovel." There's a very significant sense of accomplishment one derives from work like that which is much harder to get out of efforts which do not have such concrete results at the end of them.

[FlameBlade]

And why are all your geniuses scientists? I think they may all be very smart people, but they're not the only geniuses out there. Mozart was a genius, probably /the/ laziest genius out there. Beethoven was a genius as well, but his art came through agony and hard work. Picasso, Michaelangelo. Shakespeare. Tolkein. These are the people who defined eras, and are just as much a genius as Einstein and Newton.

Because they're areas that I'm more familiar with.

In fact, I like the examples that you gave out, Eliahad.

And I must admit one thing...I like Eliahad's definition. "Concerted effort to achieve a goal."

And by the Cain, I enjoy hard work. It's the satisifcation that comes with the completion of the work. There is nothing like cranking through difficult mathematical equations to find something truly beautiful in the real world.

So, seems that all of us except for Cain has similiar definition of what Hard Work means to us. Also, seems that we have own set of defintion of what creates a genius. Just an observation.

Genius is someone who works hard to get ideas across, and to be accepted by general people or audience. That's my view, then again, I tend to hold scientific point of view.

[MissTeja]

I think, as well, that hard work can be broken down into different segments, such as physical, emotional, mental, etc. Whereas a professional athlete may exert large amounts of physically-hard work, an ER surgeon or a child psychologist must maintain a strong emotional stability in order to endure the hard work that comes in their careers. Each of them does have a goal, though, and it is through such hard work that they are able to achieve their desired outcome. Yet - I, in no way, think that such work has to be undesirable for it to constitute as hard work.

Sure, the professional hockey player probably wouldn't mind having a couple extra teeth still there at the end of the season and the surgeon probably would have managed better had he been able to save the three kids he treated in the ER who were burn victims, but an understanding that such stuff goes with the territory helps a large component of it all, too - the ability to appreciate the good parts of hard work. As well, some may not necessarily really dislike the negative portions. Some football players like being able to grapple and hit people head on. Some child psychologists like having to hear children's horror stories because it allows them to help the child. Etc.

I agree with Eli's definition.

[Cain]

I think you hit on the part we all missed, Teja. Part of "hard work" is productivity. We assume someone who produces a lot is working hard, while those who don't accomplish very much of value are considered to be "slackers".

When you have work you enjoy + high productivity, you have a "natural" in your field. When you have work you dislike + high productivity, you have difficult labor. When you have low productivity, you have a "slacker", regardless of rather or not the work is enjoyable.

[3278]

This is such a silly discussion. Everyone knows what hard work is, and everyone knows it helps you get ahead. Working hard will almost always get you further in life than not working hard, all other things remaining equal. Everyone knows that.

What this conversation is about, ultimately, is people who /don't/ work hard. Let's use me as an example, since I'm the person least likely to take offense to people saying I'm not working hard. I weigh about 20 more pounds than I'd like to. In order to lose those 20 pounds, all I have to do is take in fewer calories overall than I expend. It's that simple. And yet, I'm still 20 pounds bigger than I'd like to be. Why? Because I don't make an effort to eat less, drink less Mountain Dew [the real culprit, at about 1800 calories a day], and walk around more. It's that simple: I'm not putting in the effort, so I'm not getting the work done. It's not the fault of my environment, or my lifestyle, or the government conspiracy to undermine my figure. It is solely up to me.

This "work hard" issue originated in another conversation, initially, one about unemployment or underemployment. Let's look at the example from that conversation: Cain. We all know Cain has a degree and a whole lot of years of experience. We all know he could have made more money than he did before he left his job. Why doesn't he? It's not because his legs are broken, or better-paying jobs aren't available; it's because he doesn't put in the effort. I myself posted several jobs Cain was certainly qualified for, and I'll put money down that he never applied.

What's the lesson? No, it's not that I'm fat and lazy and Cain is poor and lazy. Look to yourselves: I guarantee you can all think of a thousand times in your own lives that you've been held back by nothing more than your overwhelming urge to sit on your ass and do nothing. [Well, not all of you; Teja doesn't really have this problem.] Certainly, the general course of my life would be radically altered if I had ever really applied myself, and I would wager that's true for most of us: intelligent people get used to never having to work hard, since their initial exposure to "work" is school, which is easy for them, and they're less able to succeed at the things they'd like because they never learned hard work.

My brother is quite a bit less intelligent than I, but I've been unemployed for two years, while he works in New York theatre, brushing shoulders and being friends with the most famous people in town. That is because he has worked hard, applied himself, and really /tried/ at everything he did. I've been called unambitious, although that's not precisely true; I have ambition flying out of my ears. But I lack the drive to realize my ambitions, something I borrow from the people around me. [Translated: I make my girlfriend help me.] That drive, that "hard work," is what this discussion is ultimately all about.

Hard work is better than not working hard, all other things remaining equal. I don't think anyone here disagrees with that, and I know we all have plenty of proof of that in our own lives and the lives of people around us. Every time we procrastinate, every time we stay seated instead of getting up to do something, every time we fail to make a concerted effort to achieve our goals, we succeed less.

Now, if you'll excuse me, instead of looking at job postings, I'm going to go to sleep.

[3278]

Part of "hard work" is productivity. We assume someone who produces a lot is working hard, while those who don't accomplish very much of value are considered to be "slackers".

Perhaps some people assume this is true, but that doesn't make it true. In fact, it's not true at all. Hard work is hard work; productivity has nothing to do with it.

[Cipher]

This is such a silly discussion. Everyone knows what <X> is ....

When has that ever been a sufficient criterion for ending a discussion on this BBS, a_e?

[Eliahad]

32 said it. I've had days where I've worked really hard with nothing to show for it. Then, months later, I suddenly have tons of improvement. Was I working less hard during those first few months?

[Cain]

This is such a silly discussion. Everyone knows what hard work is, and everyone knows it helps you get ahead.

Really? Then please define it, and show us how it's a guaranteed measure of success.

Why doesn't he? It's not because his legs are broken, or better-paying jobs aren't available; it's because he doesn't put in the effort.

Better paying jobs aren't availiable. You never looked at the application process, or the expiaration dates, on those jobs you posted. And you didn't look at the competition. Unfortunately, in my field, there's thousands of people with similar education and experience; and the kids half my age, like you, have me beat in the energy department.

That drive, that "hard work," is what this discussion is ultimately all about.

As you've said, we've had this out before. You've asserted that, if we have a disadvantaged kid-- raised in a poor neighborhood-- he needs to work harder to achieve success. And we shouldn't make a special effort to help him, since then he won't work hard enough to succeed. And, if he doesn't succeed, it is therefore his fault, because he didn't work hard enough.

Hard work is hard work; productivity has nothing to do with it

If a kid has straight A's, do you assume he's working hard, or not?

I've had days where I've worked really hard with nothing to show for it. Then, months later, I suddenly have tons of improvement. Was I working less hard during those first few months?

According to 32's antiwelfare arguments, yes.

[Eliahad]

Hard work is hard work; productivity has nothing to do with it

If a kid has straight A's, do you assume he's working hard, or not?

Nope. Grades are hardly dependant on the amount of work you do. They can be a factor, but my A's were never because of hard work. That's not true, the A's in music weren't because of hard work, but I worked hard anyway.

According to 32's blahdeblah

That's a bullshit answer. That's not what he was talking about at all. If I'm working six hours a day, I'm still applying myself to the task at hand. That's what 32 was talking about, 'applying oneself.' If I were typing on the computer for those six hours, no way in hell am I applying myself to the cello. Or if I'm sitting there talking to my friends instead of practicing. That's not applying myself.

But that's not what I said, I said I was putting in hours of hard work. Focused work, and getting nothing to show for it. I /was/ applying myself.

[Bethyaga]

But that's not what I said, I said I was putting in hours of hard work. Focused work, and getting nothing to show for it. I /was/ applying myself.

No immediately visible result, but you were getting something from it. For some things, there is a threshold level, and until you cross that, it can seem like you're getting nowhere.

My son has been working on riding a bike. For weeks we did this, and for some reason, this is really hard for him. We see tiny incremental steps, but he's really frustrated, because he's putting in all this work and he still can't ride a two-wheeler. Then one day--all that work pays off at once. It clicks, and suddenly he's riding. On now, with practice, he's getting better by leaps and bounds.

Was all that initial work for nothing? No. Would he have gotten to the threshhold without all that labor? No. There was no shortcut to it. He had to put in that much time with seemingly limited results to push himself over that line from non-rider to rider.

Or melting ice. One calorie raises one cc of water 1 degree Celsius. So let's say you've got your one cc of water in frozen form. It's at -20 Celsius. You put in 20 calories, and now you've got it at 0 degrees. But now you've got a threshhold to cross. I don't remember what it takes to transition from solid to liquid, but let's say it's 30 calories per cc. So you've got your tiny ice cube at 0 degrees, and you are pumping in energy 1 calorie at a time, and after 20 or 25, you're getting kind of frustrated, because you've still got ice at 0 degrees. Then finally, you approach that threshhold, and suddenly ice turns to water, and the temp starts rising again. All that energy applied at the threshhold is not for nothing, it's just that it's results aren't immediately obvious.

[Cain]

All righty, then. Which of the following constitutes "hard work"?

1. Sampling mimosa mixtures to perfect your recipie.
2. Sitting on the computer, debating on Bulldrek.
3. Studying for an exam in culinary arts.
4. Writing a position paper on politics.

We'll try this the Socratic way.

[MissTeja]

Um, wait, back up. Where did I ever say anything about productivity? Working to acheive a goal does not necessarily mean that, and productivity can be measured in many, many different ways. Low productivity does in no way mean a lack of hard work.

[WillyGilligan]

1. Yes. You're trying to improve the recipe, which takes discernment and effort. As a side benefit, you get to drink lots of mimosas.

2. I'd say that this depends on who's involved. Seriously though, if you're debating and not just throwing out witty comments or saying "you're wrong", the effort is there. It's just not all that hard or intended to improve your life.

3. Obviously yes.

4. Obviously yes.

Here's a few for you.

5. You get an unexpected windfall and decide to put it away for your retirement rather than upgrade your computer or go to Disneyland.

6. You don't go to a party because your kid is sick.

7. Abandoning an established career to pursue education towards a new career which will pay more but is less certain when you have a small child at home.

[crone]

I'm not sure what is meant by 'concerted effort'. I think hard work is work that makes me tired, whether physically, mentally or emotionally. It could be pleasant or unpleasant. I think some people have broadened the definition too much, to include any kind of continued work or effort, including 'smart' work and easy work.

Personally, I'm not at all convinced of the value of 'hard work'. I think other things are much more important, liking recognising opportunities, and knowing your own preferences.

[Thorn]

This is such a silly discussion. Everyone knows what hard work is, and everyone knows it helps you get ahead.

Really? Then please define it, and show us how it's a guaranteed measure of success.

Um, hello? He didn't say it was a guarantee. I think we all seem to be in fairly unanimous agreement that there are /no/ guarantees in life. That even with "hard work", you aren't guaranteed success. What he said, and I'll quote it again, just for good measure, is that "it helps you get ahead." Helps. Not guarantees. Helps.

I don't think I've seen a single person here propose that "hard work" is the sole determining factor for success. Though I have seen you put those words in other people's mouths, Cain.

What I think, and what I've seen most people around here trying to get at, is that hard work increases your chances at succeeding at whatever your goal might be. Just like taking up parachuting increases your chances of dying in a parachuting accident, you increase your chances at achieving your goal if you work toward it.

No guarantees in either case - just because you take up parachuting doesn't mean you /will/ die in a parachuting accident, but your chances of doing so are certainly higher than those of someone who's never been parachuting. Working hard toward a goal doesn't guarantee that you'll achieve your goal (after all, you could die in a parachuting accident before you reach it), but whatever effort you put in sure improves your chances.

[3278]

Better paying jobs aren't availiable. You never looked at the application process, or the expiaration dates, on those jobs you posted. And you didn't look at the competition.

You are lying.

As you've said, we've had this out before. You've asserted that, if we have a disadvantaged kid-- raised in a poor neighborhood-- he needs to work harder to achieve success. And we shouldn't make a special effort to help him, since then he won't work hard enough to succeed. And, if he doesn't succeed, it is therefore his fault, because he didn't work hard enough.

Well, that's certainly a simplified version, but yes, that's more or less the truth. I would definitely include his parents and his school in the responsibility.

If a kid has straight A's, do you assume he's working hard, or not?

I'm sorry; I know this isn't the answer you want. I don't assume either way; in real life, there are too many factors to make assumptions about grades. Some people have to work hard for an A; some people barely have to be awake. I'm afraid whatever your point was, you'll have to make it, and not simply ask questions.

I've had days where I've worked really hard with nothing to show for it. Then, months later, I suddenly have tons of improvement. Was I working less hard during those first few months?

According to 32's antiwelfare arguments, yes.

...I'm sorry, but could you please stop putting words in my mouth? I never said any such thing.

[Eliahad]

No immediately visible result, but you were getting something from it. For some things, there is a threshold level, and until you cross that, it can seem like you're getting nowhere.

Everything you just said in that post is part of my point, which is, stated simply, productivity isn't a part of hard work. The work wasn't any less hard because there wasn't any obvious productivity.

[Bethyaga]

No immediately visible result, but you were getting something from it. For some things, there is a threshold level, and until you cross that, it can seem like you're getting nowhere.

Everything you just said in that post is part of my point, which is, stated simply, productivity isn't a part of hard work. The work wasn't any less hard because there wasn't any obvious productivity.

Yeah, I figured. I was directing that at Cain in case he should misconstrue you as supporting whatever point he's making.

[Cain]

1. Yes. You're trying to improve the recipe, which takes discernment and effort. As a side benefit, you get to drink lots of mimosas.

So, you'd consider someone who stays at home and drinks mimosas to be working as hard as someone who does greuling, unpleasant, physical labor?

2. I'd say that this depends on who's involved. Seriously though, if you're debating and not just throwing out witty comments or saying "you're wrong", the effort is there. It's just not all that hard or intended to improve your life.

If it's "not all that hard", how can it be considered as hard work?

You are lying.

Really? Then please post the resume's of the top three contenders.

Well, that's certainly a simplified version, but yes, that's more or less the truth.

And now we get to the heart of the debate.

My position is a reaction to yours-- that hard work is the key ingredient in success, and all failure signifies a lack of hard work. That's your position, by your own admission. And it's an idiotic stance, not supported by any actual evidence, and based solely on your own idealogy and imagination. I'm not even "sticking words in your mouth"-- you've just gone and admitted it.

Lack of success!= lack of "hard work", whatever that is. And Success! = "Hard Work", whatever that is. In fact, I defy you to provide hard statistics showing that an increase in effort is the most significant factor in monetary success. Hell, I defy you to prove that it's a significant factor.

[Eliahad]

1. Yes. You're trying to improve the recipe, which takes discernment and effort. As a side benefit, you get to drink lots of mimosas.

So, you'd consider someone who stays at home and drinks mimosas to be working as hard as someone who does greuling, unpleasant, physical labor?

Yes, and here's why. If a person is working hard at creating the 'perfect' miamosa, they are not simply drinking miamosas. They are taking notes, researching different ingredients that can be used. Driving out the find the most perfect orange, trying to find different kinds of champagne off of the internet, or hell, talking to people about the quality of champagne. It's not just sitting around and drinking the miamosa. All of your work is lost if you don't know how you achieved that 'perfect' miamosa. So you're documenting every step you take so you know that flavor #52 is the one you want and here's the exact proportions.

Next, at no point has anyone said that not being successful is a result of not working hard. They've said that working hard 'helps' in being successful, but the opposite is not true. Working hard aids successes, but all successes are not a result of working hard. Winning the lotto, for an example, is a success that doesn't come from working hard.

Second, you've never stated your position. You said "Your position is a reaction to ours" and then never stated your own position, straight up so we could read it plainly without all the frills.

I'm going to assume that "!=" means "not equal to," though it really looks like you're typing "Success!" I'm happy that your successes are so emphatic, really, truly. Oh, and the research is easy, just time consuming. There's plenty of biographies out there, I'd just have to read them all, and I don't feel like putting in that much hard work for this topic.

[Bethyaga]

Lack of success!= lack of "hard work", whatever that is. And Success! = "Hard Work", whatever that is. In fact, I defy you to provide hard statistics showing that an increase in effort is the most significant factor in monetary success. Hell, I defy you to prove that it's a significant factor.

So is it your contention that hard work has no bearing whatsoever on success? Or at least no measurable effect? Or better yet, are you saying that while it may have /some/ relation, the connection is tenuous enough to be considered negligible?

----------------
And just to be clear, I am defining "hard work" as "making a concerted effort to achieve a goal." I (and many others) have made clear that in discussing "hard work," that is what we are referring to.

As for a definition of success, I don't remember seeing one, but dictionary.com seems in line with my own thoughts: "The achievement of something desired, planned, or attempted." More succinctly, I would simply say, "Success is defined as achieving one's goals."
----------------

Because if you answer "yes" to any of my questions above, then you are essentially saying that there is no real reason to work hard. There is no reason to apply oneself towards a goal, because there is no evidence that doing so will bring about any measure of success.

And IF that is the case, then what do you propose we teach people to do? It's better not to have goals? It's better not to apply yourself or to strive for anything? Life is based on luck, so you better learn to react to and live with whatever life dishes up to you. Having goals and expectations is just setting yourself up for failure and disappointment. Better that you expect the worst and get on with it. Do we teach people that hope is a bad thing?

My God, I don't know if I can adequately convey the overwhelming sadness that I feel just trying to picture what creates such an outlook on life. I can't imagine what it feels like to live that life. It's just so horribly wrong to me.

[Cain]

So is it your contention that hard work has no bearing whatsoever on success? Or at least no measurable effect? Or better yet, are you saying that while it may have /some/ relation, the connection is tenuous enough to be considered negligible?

Pretty close.

Look, examine a situation such as financial success. Take a look at all the factors involved, and see how many of them can be affected by effort alone. Parental education and wealth, quality of schooling, compatriots, market conditions, availiable opportunities-- all of these are out of individual control.

The only hope is to change as a society-- make the initial conditions better across the board. Placing the onus on individuals is the "lazy way out" for a society.

[3278]

There's nothing I can say to criticize Cain that will have a more profound effect than what he just said.

[Eliahad]

Aw damn, I was hoping you'd say it so I wouldn't have to. Back later.

[WillyGilligan]

You know what? I had a huge post thought of, with thoughts, musings and lots of points to make. I scrapped it in favor of this:

Cain, you recently went back to school. Why?

[FlameBlade]

and I have a question for everyone.

When boss tells you to work hard on something, what kind of meaning you believe that your boss is telling you?

I'll tell you my opinion to this question later.

[WillyGilligan]

I'd say that he wants it done with full attention and all speed. That may mean working late until it's done, or it may mean organizing a larger effort to get it done, but if he wants 'hard work" put into the job, he wants it done ASAP with high quality.

[Cain]

You know what? I had a huge post thought of, with thoughts, musings and lots of points to make. I scrapped it in favor of this:

Cain, you recently went back to school. Why?

Because it's smarter, and easier, than my old career; with more potential.

[Bethyaga]

So you applied yourself towards a goal with the hope of achieving a greater level of success than you currently enjoy? Why?

[WillyGilligan]

But isn't it more effort (at least in the short term) to learn new skills than it is to keep using what you know with a tweak here and there to keep current when things change?

[Rev]

So you applied yourself towards a goal with the hope of achieving a greater level of success than you currently enjoy? Why?

Cause he doesn't have the option of retroactively becoming a rich persons child.

[Cain]

But isn't it more effort (at least in the short term) to learn new skills than it is to keep using what you know with a tweak here and there to keep current when things change?

Not really. The amount of work I needed to do to "keep up" is less than doing academic work, and I find academics to be more fun. I also have a more flexible schedule and can spend more time with my daughter. Then again, I've always been good academically-- it takes me less effort to learn theory than to do the practical. (And besides, much of whatI have to study is refresher courses-- it's been about twenty years or so since I studied college chemistry, but it hasn't changed that much.)

[Bethyaga]

So you applied yourself towards a goal with the hope of achieving a greater level of success than you currently enjoy? Why?

This is an activity that you specifically deny has any relation to success, so why did you bother?

[Cain]

So you applied yourself towards a goal with the hope of achieving a greater level of success than you currently enjoy? Why?

This is an activity that you specifically deny has any relation to success, so why did you bother?

Because it's smarter, and easier, work than before.

[Bethyaga]

So going back to school does not in fact constitute, "applying yourself towards a goal"? And further, you didn't do so in hopes of achieving greater success?

You are actually trying to claim that you went back to school and are trying for (or have) a better job, because it was the easy way out? Going back to school was the path of least resistance?

Bullshit. I've tried to be largely respectful through these multiple threads, but c'mon... bullshit. You are either lying, or you are intentionally twisting definitions and your own intent to the breaking point to make your actions fit your (obviously) contradictory stated position from earlier.

[ak404]

This is such a silly discussion. Everyone knows what hard work is, and everyone knows it helps you get ahead. Working hard will almost always get you further in life than not working hard, all other things remaining equal. Everyone knows that.

What this conversation is about, ultimately, is people who /don't/ work hard. Let's use me as an example, since I'm the person least likely to take offense to people saying I'm not working hard. I weigh about 20 more pounds than I'd like to. In order to lose those 20 pounds, all I have to do is take in fewer calories overall than I expend. It's that simple. And yet, I'm still 20 pounds bigger than I'd like to be. Why? Because I don't make an effort to eat less, drink less Mountain Dew [the real culprit, at about 1800 calories a day], and walk around more. It's that simple: I'm not putting in the effort, so I'm not getting the work done. It's not the fault of my environment, or my lifestyle, or the government conspiracy to undermine my figure. It is solely up to me.

It consistently scares the shit out of me how much we have in common.

Now if y'all excuse me, I need to cram some homework for late credit.

[WillyGilligan]

Because it's smarter, and easier, than my old career; with more potential.

Didn't you say that opportunities were outside of your control? Honestly, it does seem that you're advocating that it's better to teach your children to play the lottery than to actually try to do something with themselves. I know you don't think you are, but it's what's coming out of your fingers. Hard work != only sweat-producing physical labor.

[3278]

The reasons Cain is giving you are complete bullshit, meant to avoid the topic. Cain, would you mind if I gave my interpretation of why you have changed careers?