[Spain] And the world keeps getting blugeoned

Instant Cash · Post by **Instant Cash** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:16 pm

Well it has been over 24 hours since the attack on Madrid.

All I can say is my thoughts and wish's go to those who have died just so that some arrogent bastards can make a warped statement.

I really hate humanity somedays.

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:22 pm

I missed something, didn't I?

JohnnyRico · Post by **JohnnyRico** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:28 pm

You bet your ass you did.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03 ... index.html

Bishop · Post by **Bishop** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:32 pm

:cry

TheScamp · Post by **TheScamp** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:36 pm

And they actually call for 3 days of mourning.

What did we get? "Go out and buy shit!"

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:56 pm

One of my colleagues' wife is a Basque, who grew up in what is considered to be the capital of the ETA, and she is pro-seperation - like most Basques are. She said that though there are similarities, it has very few trademarks of an ETA attack. It surprises me that some governmental prominents are trying to covince Spaniards that it was, in fact an ETA attack.

Instant Cash · Post by **Instant Cash** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:04 pm

Probably more that people want to find someone to direct their anger and fear. Instead of a "We have no fucking clue" which seems to me like what is the status at the moment.

Matt McS · Post by **Matt McS** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:23 pm

Word is that while ETA is being blamed, this doesn't have two trademarks of an ETA attack, one of which is a warning of an impending attack. The other is a claim of responsibility.

"It's not al Queda" is another answer being bandied about. Possibly to avoid saying, "We don't know."

Eliahad · Post by **Eliahad** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:26 pm

I dunno, as of the BBC Worldservice this morning I got the impression that the government of Spain was wishing they hadn't said it was the ETA and that they were now, in fact, leaning more towards Al Qaeda or a related group. Maybe I heard wrong though.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:35 pm

No, that's correct, Eli. They have found a stolen van, containing 7 detonators, and several Arabic recordings in a city that three of the four trains passed through, just outside of Madrid. They also got a claim of responsibility, which they're researching right now, which is from a group whose name I can't recall off the top of my head, but who were responsible for an attack in Turkey last saturday, killing two, and an attack in Afghanistan if I remember correctly, killing 10+ Italians. They claim to have started the attacks from the staging point of many crusades into the Islamic world. Whether they mean that historically, or presently is not entirely sure. Spain was the number two ally of the United States in the War in Iraq.

Ikarus7 · Post by **Ikarus7** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:23 pm

Wether its true or not, I'm sure they will be linked will al-qaeda soon enough.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:45 pm

Please, allow me to be the first to say: Happy Train Day!

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:00 pm

Touché!

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:04 pm

Heh. Touche indeed.

So I have been hearing that this unfortunate turn of events for the Spainish might influence the rest of Europe pretty heavily. What say our Europeans? Do you think the attack on Spain will "Galvanize" (The word NBC has been using a lot on the news.) Europe and make them more supportive of the war on terror?

Also does any one else think Al Qaeda made a small tactical mistake here? It seems like they have just opened up a "second front" in their "war".

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:12 pm

Best guess, it'll probably just split the people more firmly than before. The pro-inavsion crowd will point to it as what happends if you don't act whilst the anti-war camp will use it as an example of what happens when you do stuff like that - help invade Iraq without Holy UN Mandate that is.

Whilst the scale of the thing is pretty impressive, Europe's had experience of terrorism for decades so I don't think there are going to be earth shattering reactions. Although this is pretty much the biggest attack yet so there might be some changes.

ak404 · Post by **ak404** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:54 am

Yeah, I've been reading about this too. Thing is, while the attack lacks the hallmarks of the ETA, it also lacks one specific hallmark of the al-Queda: no suicide bomber. Apparently, it was all done via remote.

Call me a cynical bastard, but does anyone find it too convenient that someone found a stolen van that contains all that's needed to implicate the al-Queda when you know it's a terrorist organization with a bankroll in the millions? Or that this attack's come so damned close to the elections for PM in that country?

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:56 am

Yeah. The Koran tape just had me thinking I'm surprised they didn't find a spare ghutra, some sand and a handwritten note saying 'Yes, I am an Islamic suicide bomber' as well. Set off the bomb and leave the tape around for Al-Qaeda to take the blame- although that leaves the question of why. But that's probably just the cynical bastard in me talking.

All-Qaeda, if you can really consider it an organisation, usually waits a bit before gloating. Unsubstantiated e-mails aside, I'd pin this one on ETA. They were the ones caught driving a truck carrying half a ton of explosives to Madrid only a couple weeks back.

ak404 · Post by **ak404** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:25 am

And the really stupid part is that Bush or some other freak is gonna try to find a way to link the ETA to al-Queda, though these groups have very little in common.

Funny thing is, Matt's post keeps coming back to me: the impending warning and a claim of responsibility. According to NPR, the ETA's staying away from this one, and the al-Queda would take responsibility for McDonald's overly greasy fries if they thought it'd hurt America.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:56 am

Funny thing? ETA has some fairly strong links to the IRA of all terrorist groups. But something tells me we wont be seeing Bush criticise that particular group any time before the elections, if ever.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:48 am

Serious Paul wrote:So I have been hearing that this unfortunate turn of events for the Spainish might influence the rest of Europe pretty heavily. What say our Europeans? Do you think the attack on Spain will "Galvanize" (The word NBC has been using a lot on the news.) Europe and make them more supportive of the war on terror?

I seriously doubt it. We have had terrorism for decades here flairing up from time to time. OK never really on this scale. But I seriously doubt you'll see any large scale support for a US led 'war on terror' or that we have a serious knee jerk reaction on security. But sure if I lived in say London or Rome I might be a bit more scared.

Also does any one else think Al Qaeda made a small tactical mistake here? It seems like they have just opened up a "second front" in their "war".

From their point of view I don't think they made an error at all.

Spain's government ousted in poll

Not only because of the bomb, blame ETA but also the VERY VERY unpopular war in Iraq that Aznar supported while the large majority of the population didn't. Just saw it on the news that the new PM said the spanish troops will be withdrawn from Iraq. From that point of view you could say that Al Qaeda made a smart move. That is 1300 or so less troops in Iraq. Not so much a military failure for the USA but a moral blow. One less allied country on their list (if they are actually withdrawn that is).

<edit>
Spain PM to withdraw Iraq troops

OK not as they mentioned it when it was breaking news. Now it is;

But the soldiers would be pulled out if there was no change in Iraq by the 30 June deadline for transfer of sovereignty.
</edit>

FlakJacket wrote:Funny thing? ETA has some fairly strong links to the IRA of all terrorist groups. But something tells me we wont be seeing Bush criticise that particular group any time before the elections, if ever.

Most modern western terror organizations are created to be IRA clones. After all they did succeed with their goal. Their tactics have proven to work. Just took a lot of time.

Not very likely Bush will do that or any american president for that matter concidering the Irish-American population is probably quite important or atleast in some part of the country (north east corner).

MooCow · Post by **MooCow** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:25 pm

Ahhh.... It's good to see terrorism works. </sarcasm>

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:39 pm

You're making one of two assumptions; either that the current ruling party, and it's rather, ehm, flamboyant prime-minister didn't have this stance on the war in Iraq before the attacks, or, if he did, that Spain's citizens were swayed to vote for the current ruling party because of the bombing. (And that's keeping the moronic way the former ruling party handled the blaming of ETA out of it.)

Conscience42 · Post by **Conscience42** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:16 pm

DV8 wrote:You're making one of two assumptions; either that the current ruling party, and it's rather, ehm, flamboyant prime-minister didn't have this stance on the war in Iraq before the attacks, or, if he did, that Spain's citizens were swayed to vote for the current ruling party because of the bombing. (And that's keeping the moronic way the former ruling party handled the blaming of ETA out of it.)

You're making the assumption that people that are crazy enough to blow up trains, and use suicide tactics are smart enough to look at this in the way above.

Suicide Bomber 1: "Yay! We blew up a train and Spain's government has changed and now they're talking about pulling their troops out. Bombing civilians works!"

Suicide Bomber 2: "No No, what they're talking about has been an ongoing process for weeks, our bombing had nothing to do with it, the timing is just a coincidence."

I'm guessing the majority of them are going to see it the first way, increasing their resolve. So Moocow's comment does stand quite well. Atleast the Polish Prime Minister was smart enough to realize that any changes now would be to admit that the terrorist plans worked.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:30 pm

Conscience42 wrote:You're making the assumption that people that are crazy enough to blow up trains, and use suicide tactics are smart enough to look at this in the way above.

Just because they're highly dedicated to their beliefs and willing to kill and commit suicide for them, that doesn't automatically make them stupid.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:42 pm

This is something I've been considering, as well. Sure, Aznar wasn't going to run for a fourth term anyway. Sure, the Socialists were going to get voted in no matter what. Sure, once the Socialists were in power, they'd be removing spanish troops from the area as soon as was practical. All of this was common knowledge before the attacks. But in a way, that doesn't matter to the terrorists, who in this case are a breed of people who take pride even in the appearance of victory [at least partially because there are so few actual victories to take pride in*].

Accurate news isn't that easy to get in third-world countries, much less in desert caves. What will be told is that, after striking a terrible blow to the accomplices of the devil, they ran like dogs, in fear of the Arab once again. We return to a time when the spanish bowed before Allah, and...you see where I'm going. The intricacies of the situation are lost to the hopeful teenage boys seeking to reclaim their homeland from the devil of secularism.

*Yes, they've blown up a great many things. But it hasn't accomplished very much, and when your men keep dying, and nothing's getting better, you have to have something to celebrate about. The promise of a beautiful afterlife isn't much comfort when you're waiting to die, and have no earthly victory to celebrate.

Conscience42 · Post by **Conscience42** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:32 pm

FlakJacket wrote:
Conscience42 wrote:You're making the assumption that people that are crazy enough to blow up trains, and use suicide tactics are smart enough to look at this in the way above.
Just because they're highly dedicated to their beliefs and willing to kill and commit suicide for them, that doesn't automatically make them stupid.

3278 explained it slightly better then I did. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "Smart". I should have said that the culture that promotes suicide bombers and blowing up trains will take this as a victory due to the appearance of Cause and Effect instead of looking at the underlying geopolitical situation in Spain before the bombing.

Of course, the leaders of these terrorist groups may be looking at the political situation in Spain at the time of the bombing, but then again, they're not the ones blowing themselves up or getting caught, are they?

mrmooky · Post by **mrmooky** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:31 am

Right, it's official. In the three or four weeks leading up to the Australian election I am completely avoiding public transport, tall buildings and large crowds.

On the plus side, it's good to see radical Islamists becoming involved in the democratic process.

The Eclipse · Post by **The Eclipse** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:06 am

[quote[Not only because of the bomb, blame ETA but also the VERY VERY unpopular war in Iraq that Aznar supported while the large majority of the population didn't. Just saw it on the news that the new PM said the spanish troops will be withdrawn from Iraq. From that point of view you could say that Al Qaeda made a smart move. That is 1300 or so less troops in Iraq. Not so much a military failure for the USA but a moral blow. One less allied country on their list (if they are actually withdrawn that is).[/quote]

Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:21 am

The Eclipse wrote:Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.

No. The new spanish prime minister had decided before the election that he would follow his personal beliefs and the beliefs of the majority of his countrymen and withdraw their troops from military action in a conflict in which no tyrant or terrorist ever threatened Spain or Spanish interests until after those troops were sent.

In other words, the now-dominant Socialist party in Spain does not feel that Spanish troops belonged in Iraq in the first place, and had resolved with great public support to withdraw them. In reality, this maneuver was at least slightly foolish on the part of the terrorists - if they are, indeed, islamic fundementalists - since it could have galvanized public opinion against withdrawing troops. Luckily for the spanish troops, Europe isn't like America. Anymore.

Johnny the Bull · Post by **Johnny the Bull** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:24 am

The Eclipse wrote:Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.

One could make the argument that many of the nations that joined the war on terror were rolled by a different tyrant.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:40 am

The Eclipse wrote:Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.

All I can say is that apparently we have very different ideas and views on how France and Spain works.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:01 am

Johnny the Bull wrote:One could make the argument that many of the nations that joined the war on terror were rolled by a different tyrant.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:40 am

I have to agree with Eclipse-this is appeasement politics at work, and int he end all that doe is buy them some time until these militant radicals are able to defeat any real opponents, and then turn their attention to finishing the job.

Admittedly thats seemingly a ways off-but you never know what will change the balance of power.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:21 pm

I have to disagree since I don't think that just cause you don't want to take an active part in the US led "war on terror" you for that reasons, and apparently that reason alone, are living by an appeasement of terrorism policy.

mrmooky · Post by **mrmooky** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:56 pm

The Eclipse wrote:Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.

The major problem with the "appeasement of terror" argument is that you're assuming the attacks on Spain would have happened regardless of its involvement in the Coalition of the Willing. I'm not so sure this is the case. I suspect Spain's involvement in Iraq was the major reason for the bombings. Thus, by withdrawing from Iraq, Spain is not "appeasing" terror, but rather, removing the main incentive for terrorists to attack its people again.

Conscience42 · Post by **Conscience42** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:18 pm

mrmooky wrote:
The Eclipse wrote:Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.
The major problem with the "appeasement of terror" argument is that you're assuming the attacks on Spain would have happened regardless of its involvement in the Coalition of the Willing. I'm not so sure this is the case. I suspect Spain's involvement in Iraq was the major reason for the bombings. Thus, by withdrawing from Iraq, Spain is not "appeasing" terror, but rather, removing the main incentive for terrorists to attack its people again.

So "Caving in" would be a better term for what Spain is doing?

Spain is involved in the war on terrorists.
Spain is bombed.
Spain withdraws.
Terrorists win.
Thanks Spain.

And no, "appeasement of terror" arguments don't assume that the attacks on Spain would have happened regardless of their involvement. The "appeasement of terror" theory is based soley on the fact that Spain has given the impression through their actions that the terrorists were able to influence a policy change with a bombing.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:21 pm

Only if you ignore most of their past actions/stances to suit your worldview. But then that's never stopped people before.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:22 pm

Flak: I agree with that as far as it goes. Yes, in the past Spain has had a pretty decent, I'd even say tough stance(Comparitively mind you...) on terror attacks,but this signals a major shift in policy. And one thats apparently pretty popular.

Now as a US citizen who isn't on the streets what I get is a combination of news reports that show millions of spainards marching in protest-and to me it says whoa! Major shift with popular backing. The guy they put into office is a man after my own heart (My people first...) but in this situation I think its going to be a bad decision on their part.

And its not that they differ on the war-its how they are doing it. I'd say there is a much better way to pull out. Now I could be wrong but the impression I get is complete withdrawal. I could care less about Spainish troops in Iraq-but perception is part of the battle people.

Conscience42 · Post by **Conscience42** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:32 pm

FlakJacket wrote:Only if you ignore most of their past actions/stances to suit your worldview. But then that's never stopped people before.

Kind of like you ignoring past comments in the thread. As I mentioned earlier, the perception of this event and how it plays to the terrorists living in the caves is that they're winning. The average terrorist won't care that this was most likely in the works before the election. As it will appear to them, the Spanish decided to pull troops out of Iraq after a terrorist attack. Appearance = Reality.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 11:02 pm

Sorry, I was agreeing with you. Just chalk it up to me being in a sarcy mood. I was agreeing that whilst the Socialists had campaigned on the issue, it's likely that the fundamentalists will willfully ignore that to match up 'reality' to their worldview.

lorg · Post by **lorg** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:08 am

Conscience42 wrote:So "Caving in" would be a better term for what Spain is doing?

Not really. More of a popular policy correction. The Iraq "war" was very unpopular in the vaste public. The new PM and the socialists campaigned on that Aznar and his guys had gone about doing whatever they wanted and not so muched cared about public opinion.

It was belived to have been a close election before the boming. The bomb just tipped the scale a bit. So it was the Iraq thing and also quite apparently all the lying about the bombing on the part of the old government that tipped the scale. I hardly call this 'caving in' to the will of terrorists. After all they have been fighting ETA for some 30 years without caving in to them yet. Sounds more like you are miffed that they don't want to play along with the US anymore on US terms and doing their bidding.

Rev · Post by **Rev** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:14 pm

Besiides Zapatero did not say that spanish troops will leave, he said that spanish troops will leave unless there is a great increase in UN control over Iraq. Now given the Bush administrations general attitude toward the UN, or thinking that it needs help from anyone really, I think it is pretty safe to say that the Spanish troops will be leaving. One could just as easily, and I am sure the Spanish socialists do, charachtarize it as 'standing up' to the US rather than 'caving in' to terrorists.

Cain · Post by **Cain** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:57 pm

Paul: You have to realize, the attitude you're presenting (which is very prevalent in American culture) is that the best way to beat a bully is to pound him into submission. It's part of our "frontier mentality", where we believe we're invulnerable, and a display of strength is better than losing pride. Spain, and much of the world, prefers a more passive approach.

The best analogy is this: an American will try to avoid being mugged by carrying a gun and mace. An European would try and avoid being mugged by not walking down dark alleys, always travelling in groups, and so on. You're not "caving in" to muggers by avoiding dark alleys, you're simply not letting yourself be a target.

I realize that the big tough guy attitude is so deeply imbedded into our culture, many of us may never understand the other viewpoint. But it's important to realize that the avoidance attitude is not the same as cowardice, and in fact can seem like plain common sense.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:04 pm

Today the police restricted train travel to and from Amsterdam during afternoon rush-hour. As a country that supported the invasion of Iraq, and has active troops there, the Netherlands has been frightened of its own shadow ever since the bomb attacks in Madrid.

3278 · Post by **3278** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:32 pm

Cain wrote:Paul: You have to realize, the attitude you're presenting (which is very prevalent in American culture) is that the best way to beat a bully is to pound him into submission.

But...that /is/ the best way to beat a bully. If you just stay out of dark alleys, the bully's still there, and quite unbeaten.

Which doesn't matter, because Spain isn't staying out of dark alleys, Spain's staying out of a fight with a bully who never attacked them in the first place, and who isn't the guy mugging people anyway. I think Spain's doing the thing they likely should have done in the first place. That doesn't mean you can beat bullies by trying to stay away from them. That just leaves them there to hurt the next guy who needs to get through that alley.

Cain · Post by **Cain** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:08 am

But...that /is/ the best way to beat a bully.

No. It's the best way to hurt someone. The best way to beat a bully is to make him into a fine upstanding person.

It also presumes that you're invulnerable, and that your opponent will stay beaten, instead of just getting madder and more vicious. Of course, the attitude of invulnerability is so deeply imbedded into our culture, it's hard to see it any other way.

Still, you're right; Spain shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Most of their population didn't want to get involved, so their government should have reflected that.

FlakJacket · Post by **FlakJacket** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:22 am

Cain wrote:Still, you're right; Spain shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place. Most of their population didn't want to get involved, so their government should have reflected that.

Possibly, possibly not. If they felt that it was the right thing to do and in the best interests of their country, in spite of how public opinion was on the issue, then they should have done it. Since we live in representative democracies the general theory as I understand it is that we vote for them, they're meant to govern as best they can and then if we don't agree with what they did we don't vote for them next time. Which is what happened, democracy in action.

Crazy Elf · Post by **Crazy Elf** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:58 am

3PO wrote:Please, allow me to be the first to say: Happy Train Day!

...

Although you're totally stealing my shit, it's good to see that someone was carrying the flag.

Happy Train Day, let's do the dance of explodo!

Eclipse wrote:Ah, so the new leading spaniard is going to emulate France and assume the position to surrender, appease and in other words; get rolled by every petty tyrant and terrorist the world has to offer.

Not really, you see by saying, "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" to Bush, they're kicking the biggest petty tyrant right in the balls, and by withdrawing their troops from Iraq, Spain is going to be doing something that a lot of other "democratic" countries seem to have lost sight of, and that's what the people want.

Conscience42 wrote:Spain is involved in the war on terrorists.
Spain is bombed.
Spain withdraws.
Terrorists win.
Thanks Spain.

Sure, you can look at it that way if you like, but you'd be wrong and a fucking Ross to do so. Spain's people didn't want the troops in Iraq to begin with, regardless of the bombings. The end. If this means that the terrorists blow up more things as a result of this result, then GOOD! Welcome to global politics, where if you fuck over one of the largest ethnic/religious groups on the planet repeatedly, they fucking well do something about it. I personally hope to see MORE explosions as a result of this, because that way a lot of the governments who were doing what the people didn't want get thrown out of office and people who actually do what the people want get in.

Fancy that! When you piss people off, they do something about it! The horror! Isn't that EXACTLY what the Americans did after Happy Plane Day? Why was blowing the shit out of Afghanistan any better than blowing up a few train stations. At least the train bombings didn't kill as many people, and at least more people aren't dying because of warlords cropping up all over the fucking place because the government went BANG!

This was fucking great. Bang! Results. No need to keep killing.

As I mentioned earlier, the perception of this event and how it plays to the terrorists living in the caves is that they're winning

Of course, because all terrorists are subterranean mongoloids who live on cat food. Thanks for the scientific social analysis.