Would you vote for Bush in the next election?

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TheScamp
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Post by TheScamp »

It is equally certain that it is due vastly more to the incompetence and/or political bias of the voters.
It is easily debatable that the first half of this is at least partially the responsibility of the aforementioned election organizers, and the second half can be easily discounted, as voting is precisely the process of making your political bias known.
For the sake of argument, if someone was to have all of the credentials to be a good president, was wise enough and just enough to make the decisions needed to be a good president, but lacked the charisma to get elected, would it be all that bad to elect a president that did possess that charisma, to be thier puppet?
When actual voting is concerned, then yes it is all that bad just on principle.
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Post by PMWrestler »

When actual voting is concerned, then yes it is all that bad just on principle.
I don't understand. Is it because you're pissed that they're lying to you? Wouldn't the good of the country balance that out though?
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Post by Marius »

No. You have to be elected before you're allowed to make decisions for the good of the country.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by 3278 »

TheScamp wrote:
It is equally certain that it is due vastly more to the incompetence and/or political bias of the voters.
It is easily debatable that the first half of this is at least partially the responsibility of the aforementioned election organizers...
Not being a moron is not at all the responsibility of the election organizers. Sure, the organizers could and should have done more, but mostly the problem was the total idiocy of the people voting.
TheScamp wrote:...and the second half can be easily discounted, as voting is precisely the process of making your political bias known.
Right. That's what made it funny. Okay, funny to me.
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Post by Cain »

PMWrestler wrote: For the sake of argument, if someone was to have all of the credentials to be a good president, was wise enough and just enough to make the decisions needed to be a good president, but lacked the charisma to get elected, would it be all that bad to elect a president that did possess that charisma, to be thier puppet?
Yes.

We elect individuals to office, not a general staff. When push comes to shove, the POTUS is the one who has to make the decisions, and not let someone else make the decisions for him. He's given all the power because he also has to take on all the responsibility; if he's not making the decisions, then we've got someone who's got all the power and no responsibility.

As the saying goes, at the president's desk, "The Buck Stops Here."
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Post by Serious Paul »

Cain wrote:We elect individuals to office, not a general staff. When push comes to shove, the POTUS is the one who has to make the decisions, and not let someone else make the decisions for him. He's given all the power because he also has to take on all the responsibility; if he's not making the decisions, then we've got someone who's got all the power and no responsibility.

As the saying goes, at the president's desk, "The Buck Stops Here."
Which is certainly not untrue, but decisions are not made in a vacuum. I mean I'd rather see a guy choose from the worst of some really well thought out positions, then a really smart guy choose on his own, or worse get advice from the wrong people.
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Post by Cain »

Which is certainly not untrue, but decisions are not made in a vacuum. I mean I'd rather see a guy choose from the worst of some really well thought out positions, then a really smart guy choose on his own, or worse get advice from the wrong people.
Agreed, but the president needs to choose his advisors. The advisors shouldn't choose the president. Which, in the case of Rove, is exactly what's happened.
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Post by MissTeja »

Cain wrote:Agreed, but the president needs to choose his advisors. The advisors shouldn't choose the president. Which, in the case of Rove, is exactly what's happened.
Cain, sometimes you have decent substance in your argument of certain points and I definately have to hand you one for persistence, but really...the Rove Argument?? *Teja collapses*

In my view, this entire "Rove Responsible for President's Bush Getting Elected" theory is an absolutely ridiculous stretch, even for the Liberals. Something I found amusing to illustrate my point was on Amazon.com, regarding a book entitled, "Bush's Brain," a book by James Moore about the whole Rove situation. What struck me was the list of books that Amazon said buyers of "Bush's Brain" were also purchasing:

*Bushwhacked: Life in George W. Bush's America by Molly Ivins, Lou Dubose (Hardcover)
* What Liberal Media? The Truth About Bias and the News by Eric Alterman (Hardcover)
* The Clinton Wars by Sidney Blumenthal (Hardcover)
* Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth by Joe Conason (Author) (Hardcover)
* Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right by Al Franken (Hardcover)

Yeeeeah...I don't think these readers here seem to be having much of an open mind when it comes to the political spectrum. Rove is a political campaign strategist. I would fear any President who didn't have such strategists at his side, because you cannot try to hold an office such as that one without them, no matter how much people hate to admit it. Politics is dirty at every end, and as much as I dislike rumors that were allegedly started by Rove about officials like McCain, McKinney and others, it's American politics! This goes on in so many elections it's practically commonplace. Does that make it right? No, but since when have political races been entirely fair? Not in a damn long time.

Sure Rove may be a a control freak and rather tunnel-visioned in that sense at times, but he is sharp, intelligent, instinctive, and obviously - not doing too darn bad for himself. As far as I have read, Bush is the one that persuaded Rove to come and work with him in 1999, too - not the other way around. George W. Bush did choose Rove as his advisor. If you think that was a bad decision to make, that's one thing, but to say that Rove chose Bush to be America's President is just stretching the band a bit too far. It is not "exactly" what has happened. Should Bush be held responsible for Rove's actions? To an extent, possibly, but the fact still remains that Bush is Bush and Rove is Rove. Let's be sure to not get them confused.

Come on, Cain. Just join us all on the dark side...
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Post by lorg »

Anguirel wrote:Famous Third Party Candidates the most recent of which was H. Ross Perot and the most well known of which is Abraham Lincoln.
Famous is one things winning is another, All Perot did was spend his fortune. Perhaps he had an impact on some level but the final goal did elude him.
Anguirel wrote:Jim Jeffords is currently an independent United States Senator from Vermont. When the Senate is otherise fairly evenly divided, his swing vote can become a powerful factor and thus he can often wield significant influence. The Republican Majority has lessened his impact, though that has also lessened the influence of even the Democrats.
So you have 1 out of 540 (100 senators and 440 in the house (that is a guess from a list of them since I couldn't find a page on the house.gov that flat out said how many they where). That isn’t much, but perhaps that is representative of the public opinion.

Sure one vote can become important when the others are tied. I assume you wouldn't agree that the system is holding back independent and non-republican/democratic people from taking office? Perhaps it isn't, but I doubt it.
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Post by lorg »

MissTeja as you pointed out liberals buy books that cater to their opinion much like the right ... lets take a look and see what people buying for example Bill O'Reillys book bought besides his book (who's looking out for you).

They bought other O'Reilly books and they bough:

Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity by David Limbaugh

Off with Their Heads : Traitors, Crooks & Obstructionists in American Politics, Media & Business by Dick Morris

Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right by Ann H. Coulter


Since Ann Coulter is a real bag of hot air lets see what people that read her "masterpiece" bought ...

Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First by Mona Charen

High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton by Ann Coulter

Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Endangered America's Long-Term National Security by Robert Patterson

Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News by Bernard Goldberg

The Savage Nation: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Borders, Language and Culture by Michael Savage


The result was hardly a surprise.

To end it lets look at Sean Hannity (the man I'm surprised that Colmes just doesn't jump across the desk and strangle every night) ...

Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right by Ann H. Coulter

The No Spin Zone: Confrontations With the Powerful and Famous in Americaby Bill O'Reilly

Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Endangered America's Long-Term National Security by Robert Patterson

Useful Idiots: How Liberals Got It Wrong in the Cold War and Still Blame America First by Mona Charen

Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News by Bernard Goldberg


MissTeja wrote:Yeeeeah...I don't think these readers here seem to be having much of an open mind when it comes to the political spectrum.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Not that Amazon.com shopping lists really prove anything beyond that people buy books.

A possible explanation for it could be that all these people, be them liberal, conservative or not plug each others book on each others and what ever other little chat shows they can get on.

O'Reilly mentions his own books at least once a show, Hannity ain't much better, Coulter is a guest of Hannity with some regularity and so on ...
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Post by MissTeja »

lorg wrote:MissTeja as you pointed out liberals buy books that cater to their opinion much like the right ... lets take a look and see what people buying for example Bill O'Reillys book bought besides his book (who's looking out for you).
Yay! You see, I was under the assumption that all of us non-Liberals were illiterate; or at the very least, just speaking out of the holes in our asses...
... My listing of books, there, was not a demonstration, or "throwing a rock" at all Liberals, because I understand that such would be quite hypocritical. I was "throwing my rock" at those folks who, as I stated, believe Rove should be entirely credited with President Bush's election. Such an ascertain is silly, and my listing of similar reads was added to illustrate that. I realize that there are some Moderates and Conservatives out there lacking brain cells on a similar level, especially ones that go out and buy books demeaning people as humans before even getting to the first page, like with the book entitled "Useful Idiots (Charen)." However, "distaste" was not my point of the post.

The books were simply a brief illustration in my post in attempt to further my point of the absurdity of this "Rove Theory."
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Post by Cain »

Actually, Rove *is* largely responsible for Bush being elected; that's what campaign strategists do. Rove has also been closely assciated with the Bush family for many years; he has apparently been grooming Junior for the presidency for a good number of years.

To say that Rove single-handedly got Junior the presidency is quite far-fetched, I admit, which is why I don't actually suggest any such thing. But to say that Rove was heavily instrumental in it, and that he wanted to back a successful presidential candidate, and that he saw one in Junior many years ago-- none of that is out of the question, and is supported by much of the evidence. And to say that he's got an influence in policy all out of proportion to his position is also pretty much self-evident. (The same holds true for Cheney.)

Whatever the case, the truth is that whomever makes a decision, the POTUS is responsible for it. Rove and Cheney appear to be making many of the decisions for Bush, which is not a good thing.
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Post by MissTeja »

Cain wrote:To say that Rove single-handedly got Junior the presidency is quite far-fetched, I admit, which is why I don't actually suggest any such thing.
Ahh. Okay. See, I thought that's "exactly" what you were saying based on this previous post:
Cain wrote:Agreed, but the president needs to choose his advisors. The advisors shouldn't choose the president. Which, in the case of Rove, is exactly what's happened.
My bad.
Cain wrote:Whatever the case, the truth is that whomever makes a decision, the POTUS is responsible for it. Rove and Cheney appear to be making many of the decisions for Bush, which is not a good thing.
Actually, I like to think of them as recommendations. As you have said, the President is responsible for each decision put into the works. However, if Bush, who we have elected to do what is in the best interests for our country, feels that the recommendations Rove and Cheney are making are sufficient enough and good enough to benefit our country, he puts them into the works. That's not a bad thing, it's avoidance of a dictatorship.
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Post by mrmooky »

3278 wrote:It is equally certain that it is due vastly more to the incompetence and/or political bias of the voters.
Political bias of the voters? It's too early in the morning over here, so I'll assume that was a joke.

As for incompetence: yes, many voters were incompetent. Many more were presented with faulty hole-punchers, or were barred from even entering the booth because they had the same name as a convicted criminal. I'll grant that some of the voters whose votes weren't counted were incompetent, but this was not true of all of them, or even a proven majority - hence, a re-election in Florida was necessary to ensure the President had truly been elected democratically.
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Post by Bethyaga »

mrmooky wrote:
3278 wrote:It is equally certain that it is due vastly more to the incompetence and/or political bias of the voters.
Political bias of the voters? It's too early in the morning over here, so I'll assume that was a joke.
I personally thought it was a spectacular joke. That's very very funny stuff.
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Post by Marius »

And to say that he's got an influence in policy all out of proportion to his position is also pretty much self-evident.
I really don't see any way that the "Chief Political Advisor to the President" could /ever/ have an influence on policy out of proportion to his position. Literally no one, except the President himself, should have /more/ influence on the President's policies.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Cain »

Teja: Just to make my views clear, I think Rove was the one who pushed Junior into running for president; that he's been managing Junior's political career for years with that very aim in mind; and that now, he holds power all out of proportion to his actual position. I honestly do think that Rove chose Bush, instead of the other way around; and as a result, we have someone who wields a great deal of presidental power without any of the attendant responsibilities.

I don't know what the "Rove theory" is, so I can't tell you if I agree with it or not. I do think that Rove has been grooming Bush for the presidency for a very long time, for any number of reasons. I think if Rove were out of the picture, Bush would not have done nearly as well as he did in 2000; or for that matter, in the Texas governor races. So yes, Rove is one factor among many responsible for Bush's election in 2000. And a major factor at that.

I also believe that Rove and Cheney, plus others, are making many of the actual decisions, and telling Bush what will happen next. I'm getting the impression that Bush is largely a figurehead for various people; his sudden turnarounds on several issues are pretty clear indicators of that. It's also clear that the influence of actual advisors, like Powell, largely goes unheeded when it goes against the decisions of Rove and Cheney.
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Post by Marius »

I also believe that Rove and Cheney, plus others, are making many of the actual decisions, and telling Bush what will happen next.
Indeed they are. But it's not because Bush is merely a figurehead. It's because that's the way Bush chooses to do business. It is a management style that says, "You go and decide what we should do about this, and bring it back to me." And because he has a lot of faith in the people working for him, he virtually always green lights what they bring back. Every executive differs in management style, and knew what Bush's worked this way when we voted him into office. We voted in a guy who leads by management, and it contrasts with a guy who leads by dictate, which is more what we had last, and is how people sometimes mistakenly archetype the Presidency.
his sudden turnarounds on several issues are pretty clear indicators of that
His sudden turnarounds are indications that what he said he wanted to do didn't match up with what the folks on the project say is actually doable. That's all. Every administration does that. (Remember that the Doonesbury icon for Clinton was a steaming waffle?)
It's also clear that the influence of actual advisors, like Powell, largely goes unheeded when it goes against the decisions of Rove and Cheney.
Powell is not an advisor, actual or virtual. He's the head of the State Department. Rove's official title, on the other hand, is Chief Political Advisor.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Cain »

Indeed they are. But it's not because Bush is merely a figurehead. It's because that's the way Bush chooses to do business.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....

People who supported Bush supported the man, and not his chief of staff. What's more, the president is a leader, and not a rubber-stamper. Asking someone else to make the decisions goes against the longstanding Presidental tradition of "The Buck Stops Here".

If Bush is merely rubber-stamping decisions for others, then we could easily replace him with a Xerox. Who would you vote for as president: Sharpton, Nader, or a copier machine?
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Post by Marius »

Who would you vote for as president: Sharpton, Nader, or a copier machine?
In all seriousness, the copier machine.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....
. . . then it's probably a bird, and totally irrelevant to our discussion.
People who supported Bush supported the man, and not his chief of staff. What's more, the president is a leader, and not a rubber-stamper. Asking someone else to make the decisions goes against the longstanding Presidental tradition of "The Buck Stops Here".
No, it absolutely doesn't. No President types up the federal budget. No President works out the language of administration policy, and no President brainstorms the nuts and bolts of the tax code. Every President has people around him who actually suggest the policies, who invent them, and refine them, advising the President on them, and changing them to his liking. Each President tries to micromanage this process to a different extent. This President likes to micromanage very little, and to do so he's got advisors and Cabinet members who are highly experienced policy makers and administrators in their own rights. He micromanages little, and accepts much. That makes him neither a duck, nor a rubber stamp, nor a copy machine.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Serious Paul »

Okay thats garbage.

Goes against long standing tradition? If you had said that he wasn't taking responsibility for these decisions and was passing the blame off to others, then yeah okay maybe I'd buy it-even if passing the buck is a political sport of the highest nature.

Saying that having advisors is wrong is by far the most absurd statement I have ever heard you make. Every president has his own set of advisors, and not all of them are necassarily cabinet members. JFK had RFK, Johnson had a massive number of advisors, Nixon had people he listened to-every president does. The decisions are not made in a vacuum.

There is no way one man could run the presidency alone. No way he could read the sheer amount of paper work involved, write the papers required, none of it. Its just absurd to think Bush should run the White House identical to Washington or even Lincoln. Its just not possible.

He's not rubber stamping-he's picked people who represent his ideals-just like voters are supposed to pick people who represent them. There is very little difference.

Your comparison is as absurd as your post. You're letting your personal dislike for the man cloud your better judgement. Jeesh, you normally get to say this to me!
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Post by Gunny »

Cain wrote:If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....
I'm sorry, but I really fucking hate that. That's got to be the most underhanded, blind judgement statement EVER created. :mad
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Post by Cain »

Saying that having advisors is wrong is by far the most absurd statement I have ever heard you make.
Good think I didn't make it, then.

Yes, every president needs advisors. But the President needs to be the one who sets policy. Not his cabinet, not his advisors. The advisors are there to help formulate policy, not to hand it off to him to sign.

Bush Jr. is particularly bad about this-- he doesn't mircomange because he doesn't manage at all. Best I can tell, Rove and Cheney manage him, and not the other way around.
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Post by 3278 »

And you're basing this on your close and personal friendship with them all? Or what you see on the news? What you read in liberal zines, or on political websites? What are you basing this [very strong] opinion of yours on?
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Post by MissTeja »

Cain wrote:Yes, every president needs advisors. But the President needs to be the one who sets policy. Not his cabinet, not his advisors. The advisors are there to help formulate policy, not to hand it off to him to sign.
Back to what Marius stated, every President has their own management system. The process by which President Bush gets policies in the works may be different, and obviously not to your liking or approval, but that does not make it wrong. It's not breaking any laws. It's not burdening any Advisors with any work that they strongly oppose doing for the President. They are there to advise the President and aid him in such decision-making. To what extent that stretches is not for us to determine. Plus, the fact that he does sign it as a final step holds him accountable and ensures that he approves of that policy. Not only that, but I highly doubt that President Bush has not played any part whatsoever other than the signee, in these policy formations.
Cain wrote:Bush Jr. is particularly bad about this-- he doesn't mircomange because he doesn't manage at all.
Nope. He's the President of the United States, and even though he received his Bachelor's Degree from Yale, his Master's from Harvard, worked in the Energy field for a few years prior to co-owning and serving as the Managing General Partner of the Texas Rangers baseball team, served eight years as Governor of Texas and is now President of the United States of America - Nope. Can't imagine where he'd get any management, not to mention micromanagement skills in all of that. I'm sure he'd have been better off flipping burgers at Wendy's.

I understand you don't like the man, Cain. You're not alone on that, but to make such statements really just damages your argument even more.
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Post by Toyman »

Marius wrote:
his sudden turnarounds on several issues are pretty clear indicators of that
His sudden turnarounds are indications that what he said he wanted to do didn't match up with what the folks on the project say is actually doable. That's all. Every administration does that. (Remember that the Doonesbury icon for Clinton was a steaming waffle?)
Ok, Cain, you've been scrutinizing Bush for too long and ignoring the Dems to think that Political 180's aren't SOP. Let's look at the Dems record on WMD in Iraq and the need to intervene there...

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
— Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, 9 Oct. 1998

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre—Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a illicit missile program to develop longer—range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
— Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D—FL), and others, 5 Dec. 2001

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
— Al Gore, 23 Sept. 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
— Sen. Ted Kennedy (D—MA), 27 Sept. 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons ..."
— Sen. Robert Byrd (D — WV), 3 Oct. 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
— Sen. Jay Rockefeller, (D — WV), 10 Oct. 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
— Rep. Henry Waxman (D—CA), 10 Oct. 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
— Sen. Hillary Clinton (D — NY), 10 Oct 2002

"[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
— Sen. John F. Kerry (D — MA), 23 Jan. 2003

I can do the same thing for Republicans, particularly President Bush. Minor changes in the world and suddenly you're saying the exact opposite of what you said a few months prior...

Edit: w00t! I knew I'd forget to change names eventually. I bet I have a few other posts now...
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Post by Bethyaga »

Rock out, Ang. Very nice.

And yes, I'm sure a Republican list would be very similar.
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Post by FlameBlade »

Bethyaga: It is. I have seen them posted around at my college...especially at College of Liberal Arts. It is incredibly similar to what is being said by Anguirel.
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Post by ak404 »

I'd love to see that ist myself, FB. I don't count is as flip-flopping, really. They were wrong, they changed their minds. I mean, what would you do in the same situation? Except they never actually admitted they were wrong, I guess. Politicians rarely do.

Here's what I'm wondering. Weren't Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft on someone else's Administration? My head's somewhere else right now, but I believe Cheney was Secretary of Defense for #41, while Ashcroft was with Reagan. Or am I getting this wrong? Anyway, I was under the impression that a good strong President would have a lot of connections and some serious cred in Washington, which worries me slightly since it seems to me that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Powell, and #41 would have these, but I don't think #43's ever held office or any position of importance in Washington besides the one he has now. I mean, the same goes for Clinton, I guess, but I never thought of him as an especially strong President.

Of course, I'm always under the impression that #41 had much more control over his Administration than #43, where I can start to see cracks forming.
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Post by Marius »

Cheney was in the Nixon, Ford, and Bush I (Sec. of Defense) administrations. Rumsfeld was Sec. of Defense under Ford, and held various odd Federal positions during Reagan and Bush I, while he was in the private sector. Ashcroft was a Governor and Senator, but never served in a Presidential administration.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by FlameBlade »

I know. The trouble, is, the such lists have a lot of different sources of the quotes, and it's on some kind of mailing list that some professor subscribe to. I, myself would love to see how those professors gather such information. I just have that feeling that whoever has military control, the other party will condemn while the party with control will make cases. And this may be the case with Republicans and Democrats. Somehow, I have a feeling that Republicians and Democrats will take everything so personal that they are forgetting what is the main goal of United States.
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Post by ak404 »

FB, they're members of a bipartisan political system. That in itself is a pretty bad idea...I think Washington himself said it. I'm not treating it as gospel, I'm just saying, putting things into distinct groups like that tends to filter out too many good ideas because you've gotta step in line with your party, and for the most part, party loyalty comes first. I see a bill go through Congress and most of the time, I have a pretty good idea of how it's going to go - GOP on one side, Dems on the other, and maybe a few swingers here and there to make things interesting. It's almost sadly predictable.

Incidentally, Washington was the only President I can recall who wasn't affiliated with any political party. I don't know how that affected his performance or status in the capitol, but I'd guess he was well-liked.
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Post by Cain »

Back to what Marius stated, every President has their own management system. The process by which President Bush gets policies in the works may be different, and obviously not to your liking or approval, but that does not make it wrong. It's not breaking any laws. It's not burdening any Advisors with any work that they strongly oppose doing for the President. They are there to advise the President and aid him in such decision-making. To what extent that stretches is not for us to determine. Plus, the fact that he does sign it as a final step holds him accountable and ensures that he approves of that policy. Not only that, but I highly doubt that President Bush has not played any part whatsoever other than the signee, in these policy formations.
Let me give you a hypothetical example. Suppose we prove, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that Bush lied extensively about Saddam, the situation in Iraq, and so on. Let's go to the extreme of saying that Saddam called Bush, crying for his mommy and begging to surrender, and was ignored. (Since we know that isn't at all likely to have happened, it's a safe example.) Let's say that Bush went to war anyway, and is found out.

What happens next? Well, Bush would be impeached, if he had done something that heinous. But the people who formulated the policy, the people who told him what to do, they would be untouched. Cheney would become President, and Rove would keep his job; and the people who gave the order remain untouched an in power.

We have checks and balances on the President. We do not have such checks on his staff, because the President is supposed to be the one making the decisions.
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Post by Marius »

Well, Bush would be impeached, if he had done something that heinous. But the people who formulated the policy, the people who told him what to do, they would be untouched. Cheney would become President, and Rove would keep his job; and the people who gave the order remain untouched an in power.

We have checks and balances on the President. We do not have such checks on his staff, because the President is supposed to be the one making the decisions.
As a matter of fact, we do. Per the Constitution of the United States, any officer of the executive branch can be removed by impeachment.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by WillyGilligan »

That's fine, Cain, but as 32 said, on what are you basing the opinion that his advisors are making the decisions and telling him where to sign? Cuz I gotta tell you, that situation would seem pretty identical to having a manager who agrees with what his advisors are telling him if you're looking at it from the outside.
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Post by MissTeja »

Cain wrote:Let me give you a hypothetical example.
Why don't you give me one real, solid example instead? I'm not picky or overly hard to satisfy, so just one will do...
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Post by TheScamp »

Not being a moron is not at all the responsibility of the election organizers. Sure, the organizers could and should have done more, but mostly the problem was the total idiocy of the people voting.
Ah. Well, idiocy != incompetence.
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Post by ak404 »

Marius wrote:Cheney was in the Nixon, Ford, and Bush I (Sec. of Defense) administrations. Rumsfeld was Sec. of Defense under Ford, and held various odd Federal positions during Reagan and Bush I, while he was in the private sector. Ashcroft was a Governor and Senator, but never served in a Presidential administration.
So basically, they have a lot more experience and juice with Washington and its politics than the President does? That doesn't seem too good to me?
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Post by Marius »

So basically, they have a lot more experience and juice with Washington and its politics than the President does? That doesn't seem too good to me?
It should seem good to you. Presidents are almost never people who have tons of experience in Washington, and their advisors almost always are.
There is then a need to guard against a temptation to overstate the economic evils of our own age, and to ignore the existence of similar, or worse, evils in earlier ages. Even though some exaggeration may, for the time, stimulate others, as well as ourselves, to a more intense resolve that the present evils should no longer exist, but it is not less wrong and generally it is much more foolish to palter with truth for good than for a selfish cause. The pessimistic descriptions of our own age, combined with the romantic exaggeration of the happiness of past ages must tend to setting aside the methods of progress, the work of which, if slow, is yet solid, and lead to the hasty adoption of others of greater promise, but which resemble the potent medicines of a charlatan, and while quickly effecting a little good sow the seeds of widespread and lasting decay. This impatient insincerity is an evil only less great than the moral torpor which can endure, that we with our modern resources and knowledge should look contentedly at the continued destruction of all that is worth having. There is an evil and an extreme impatience as well as an extreme patience with social ills.
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Post by Serious Paul »

Well wouldn't it be relative? I mean George II had a preisdent for a father, a father who was also the head of the CIA. He likely lunched with some of these people at one point or another? Also being a govenor doesn't totally isolate you from Washington politics, and niether would owning/managing a business.

I guess he just doesn't seem any less political than any other president, imho.
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Post by mrmooky »

You can't deny that Bush has political experience. And it's quite probable that he relies heavily on his advisors, just like every other political leader in the world. Ultimately, I don't think it matters who sets the agenda of an administration - the point is that the administration as a whole is pushing the agenda.
MissTeja wrote:I don't think these readers here seem to be having much of an open mind when it comes to the political spectrum.
And this concerns me. I remember a great quote from Hitler where he said that he only ever read to confirm his already existing views. Sorry to invoke Godwin's law, but it gives an indication of where such a mentality can lead.
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Post by FlakJacket »

mrmooky wrote:
MissTeja wrote:I don't think these readers here seem to be having much of an open mind when it comes to the political spectrum.
And this concerns me. I remember a great quote from Hitler where he said that he only ever read to confirm his already existing views. Sorry to invoke Godwin's law, but it gives an indication of where such a mentality can lead.
So, because they kind of share a managerial style, that makes Bush a screaming Nazi as well? We're not back to the Bush/Chaney goosestepping round the Oval Office in spiked Kaiser helmets scenraio now are we?
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Post by FlameBlade »

Though, you have to admit that the mental imagery is funny, Flak :)
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Post by mrmooky »

Uh, Flak, for the sake of clairty, that part of the post wasn't talking about Bush in any way, shape or form.
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Post by FlakJacket »

Oops. Sorry, my bad. Went back and re-read the post and the first time around my brain seems to have read something completely different. :aww
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Post by mrmooky »

Don't worry. Happens to the best of us.
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Post by Cain »

MissTeja wrote:
Cain wrote:Let me give you a hypothetical example.
Why don't you give me one real, solid example instead? I'm not picky or overly hard to satisfy, so just one will do...
Check the most recent Newsweek, dated (I believe) November 17th. I can't access an online copy, it's a subscription site; but it describes how Cheney was the one who sold the war to everyone. Of all the times when the president should look at the facts himself, instead of meekly accepting what's handed to him, going to war is it. When you're putting that many American lives on the line, the president is the one who needs to make sure it's worth it. But the pattern that emerges is that Cheney wanted the war, and Bush merely assented.
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Post by MissTeja »

Cain wrote:Check the most recent Newsweek, dated (I believe) November 17th. I can't access an online copy, it's a subscription site; but it describes how Cheney was the one who sold the war to everyone. Of all the times when the president should look at the facts himself, instead of meekly accepting what's handed to him, going to war is it. When you're putting that many American lives on the line, the president is the one who needs to make sure it's worth it. But the pattern that emerges is that Cheney wanted the war, and Bush merely assented.
So, the article specifically states that Bush was not in support of the war until Cheney advised him that it was a good idea, thereby which lead Bush to engage in actions beginning the war?
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Post by 3278 »

Cain wrote:Check the most recent Newsweek, dated (I believe) November 17th. I can't access an online copy, it's a subscription site; but it describes how Cheney was the one who sold the war to everyone.
Wait, this opinion you hold, you've decided on the basis of one Newsweek, that just came out a few days ago? This opinion that you've held for months now? You must have /some/ other example, other than this one article. After all, it's a pretty strong opinion, with some very powerful ramifications; I'd think you'd want to have more than one source for something as significant as this, that you'd want to verify it before you came to such a solid conclusion on the matter.
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Post by Cain »

So, the article specifically states that Bush was not in support of the war until Cheney advised him that it was a good idea, thereby which lead Bush to engage in actions beginning the war?
No. It indicates that Cheney made the decision to go to war, and Bush merely rubber-stamped it.
Wait, this opinion you hold, you've decided on the basis of one Newsweek, that just came out a few days ago? This opinion that you've held for months now? You must have /some/ other example, other than this one article. After all, it's a pretty strong opinion, with some very powerful ramifications; I'd think you'd want to have more than one source for something as significant as this, that you'd want to verify it before you came to such a solid conclusion on the matter.
Mostly what I have is a series of practices, a chain of circumstantial evidence. The Newsweek article is merely one of the clearest examples. There's any number of articles out there describing Cheney as the "Power behind the throne", going back to before Bush's inauguration. There's also a good number of articles on Rove. Taken single, none would be proof. Take them all together, and you have a pretty interesting picture.
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