What the Fuck is Cyberpunk?

[Nicephorus]

Seriously. What was it? What is it now? Is it still alive? I don't want any links or goddamned official answers, no "failed writer #634,466 defines it as...". I want your opinions, what it means to you.

I'll add my thoughts later.

[Jeff Hauze]

Is it still alive? Sure. But I think the definition of cyberpunk expanded quite a bit. You're finding core attributes of cyberpunk settings (the dark, dystopian world, balkanization of factions, hidden class/caste warfare) cropping up everywhere from urban fantasy settings like The Dresden Files to the inevitable conclusion of transhumanism in settings like Eclipse Phase. It's grown far beyond its roots, and clinging to only those roots does a disservice to the genre.

As for what it was? I always felt that it was entirely a product of Reagan-era America. You had the xenophobic fear of southeast Asia, the corporitization of society, the growing gulf between rich and poor leading to the creation of an actual untouchables caste in the States.

[Ancient History]

To me, cyberpunk was a brief and exciting phase in literature and media. A lot of it was crap, some of it was awesome, and it still influences stuff today - but it was also extremely tied to its founding era. I don't think you could write Neuromancer today; you could write a book every bit as awesome as Neuromancer, but it wouldn't be cyberpunk. We're too enmeshed in internet culture, technology has lost too much of its mystique. Not that cyberpunk is irrelevant, because it is - it's still tremendous fun, and tremendously engaging, but the spirit of the movement has passed.

[Tiny Deev]

I'm actually writing an article on how the Cyberpunk genre is being revisited and retold in computer games. With Deus Ex, Syndicate, Hard Reset and the rumors of Snatchers being in production, the gaming world seems to go through a bit of a Cyber-punk phase.

[Serious Paul]

To me Cyberpunk has a few essential elements:

• Dystopian World View. The rich are rich and powerful; the poor are poor and often times disenfranchised. There is no real middle ground, or what little exists is in danger of disappearing with a rapidness.
• Science Fiction-this has already been a difficult point for modern cyberpunk writers to address. CP is near future, not distant Star Trek futuristic. The problem is when you're on the cutting edge of science fiction writing, you find that "Oh crap. This came to pass." Suddenly it's not science fiction but reality. Or something like it.
• CP is often, to me stories of plots and schemes by the big guy stopped or ruined by the little guy, or the few. But not always.
• CP is often about information and it's value.
• CP is music. I'm not as Punk as some people are, but to me it's about the anti-establishment movement in parts, and individuality in other parts.

Combine all of that, and BHAM! Cyberpunk.

[Ancient History]

I think Paul's right, particularly about the music aspect.

[paladin2019]

I generally agree. Comments in line.

To me Cyberpunk has a few essential elements:

• Dystopian World View. The rich are rich and powerful; the poor are poor and often times disenfranchised. There is no real middle ground, or what little exists is in danger of disappearing with a rapidness.

Of course, it's punk. DAMN THE MAN!

[*]Science Fiction-this has already been a difficult point for modern cyberpunk writers to address. CP is near future, not distant Star Trek futuristic. The problem is when you're on the cutting edge of science fiction writing, you find that "Oh crap. This came to pass." Suddenly it's not science fiction but reality. Or something like it.

I'm not sure this is a bad thing. CP is inherently near future because the punk aspect is often social commentary. If the tech is this close, how close is the society?

[*]CP is often, to me stories of plots and schemes by the big guy stopped or ruined by the little guy, or the few. But not always.

Back to punk, or specifically, punk justice fantasies. Not that this is a bad thing.

[*]CP is often about information and it's value.

Recognizing its roots in Orwell, I think this follows the dystopia. And the near future thing, eg WikiLeaks.

[*]CP is music. I'm not as Punk as some people are, but to me it's about the anti-establishment movement in parts, and individuality in other parts.

I'm not sure music is as much a key element, being that CP is a literary style at its core. I don't discount it's inspiration and importance in adapted media.

But the core CP theme is humanity. With rapidly advancing technology mindlessly surpassing it, a dystopian society actively trying to crush it, can the protagonist retain his humanity? What if he isn't human at all? Can he learn to be "human"?

[Ancient History]

Music is critical to a lot of early and core cyberpunk tales, from "City Come a-Walkin'" and "Winter Market" to "Synners" and "Black Glass." The music industry is one of the places where non-technical people can start messing around with very technical equipment and adapting it to new uses and styles - today we would maybe point to the vast number of home audio synthesis, editing, and recording data, but in the 80s we're talking relatively cutting-edge digital media, modular analog and digital synthesizers, some of which were computer programmed and controlled...hell, the whole body of tray table techniques. Music is a measure of talent and skill which is evident regardless of social class and formal education, so it breaks class boundaries, and musicians who make it big become media and business icons.

[3278]

Well, it's funny, isn't it, how music defines genres of things other than music. Whole subcultures are defined by the music they listen to. Shadowrun had Queensrÿche logos distributed liberally throughout its artwork; Queensrÿche sang songs about cyberware. Cyberpunk in literature isn't cyberpunk in music, but the two are inexorably intertwined.

[Serious Paul]

I'm not sure this is a bad thing. CP is inherently near future because the punk aspect is often social commentary. If the tech is this close, how close is the society?

I agree it's not a bad thing. I just think it's a common obstacle for writers of CP fiction. When Shadowrun first hit the scene a lot of what was contained between it's pages was just science fiction. Now some of it is science fact.

I'm not sure music is as much a key element, being that CP is a literary style at its core. I don't discount it's inspiration and importance in adapted media.

I am. Music is intrinsically intertwined in my CP. It's an integral part of CP for me. I don't think we're disagreeing here.

[Van Der Litreb]

Hell, in the Cyperpunk RPG, one of the archetypes was a musician. And wasn't there some lame guitar sequence in The Crow?

[3278]

Rocker was an SR archetype, too. And Information Society made a song about Molly.

Is there an implication there that The Crow is cyberpunk?

[3278]

Cyberpunk may be dead, as a sub-genre, but it's passed its memes into the collective subconscious such that millions of people watched The Matrix or played Deus Ex without ever hearing the word cyberpunk. The issues it raises couldn't be more relevant: megacorporations, increasing influence of hackers, man-machine interfaces, global telecommunications, the growing class divide. Cyberpunk presaged all of this, and like all good science fiction, in some ways brought it to pass. It's no longer separate from the culture, it is part of the culture: its data payload has been delivered to the global network.

[Serious Paul]

This thread is one of the best in a long while. I'll be back to this later, but for now off to hang with a friend. Thanks to all who made this fun to read!

[Jeff Hauze]

Is there an implication there that The Crow is cyberpunk?

There's a fair amount of common ground, yeah.

[Serious Paul]

I can see some similarities between the Crow and the CP movement, but I'd personally throw it under a Goth label.

CP is pretty dear to me, because frankly it was the genre I was raised on. So like all first loves, it's still got a place near and dear to me. I do think that genre has begun to fade, to a point and the post-humanist stuff has begun it's ascent but I'll always have love for what Shadowrun was.

[Ancient History]

You might like Black Glass, Paul.

[Serious Paul]

I'll have to check it out.

[3278]

Is there an implication there that The Crow is cyberpunk?

There's a fair amount of common ground, yeah.

I'm not seeing it. Some organized crime, yeah, and little guy against bigger guy, but that hardly cyberpunk makes. Where's the megacorps, the mirrorshades, the cybernetics, the global telecommunications, the high tech in general? Aren't those things essential to the core of what it is to be cyberpunk?

[paladin2019]

Is there an implication there that The Crow is cyberpunk?

There's a fair amount of common ground, yeah.

Punk, yes. Cyber, not so much.

[Ancient History]

I guess I consider The Crow as Gothic punk - the sort of I'm-back-from-the-dead-and-my-jeans-are-torn that you get from say, 1st edition Vampire: the Masquerade and one of the greatest vampire movies of all time, Near Dark.

[Jeff Hauze]

I'm not seeing it. Some organized crime, yeah, and little guy against bigger guy, but that hardly cyberpunk makes. Where's the megacorps, the mirrorshades, the cybernetics, the global telecommunications, the high tech in general? Aren't those things essential to the core of what it is to be cyberpunk?

Never said it was cyberpunk. Don't know why folks thought I did. I said, there's a fair amount of common ground. What you mentioned, plus the dark, dystopian future, class warfare, a largely uncaring and ineffective police force, and spectacularly overdramatized and hyperstylized criminals. Not an "overwhelming amount of cross-over", just a fair amount of common ground. I thought what I wrote was pretty clear.

To be more specific, it has a bit more in common with Shadowrun than cyberpunk. Shadowrun itself isn't straight cyberpunk, much to the chagrin of the die-hard "We should go back to the Pink Mohawks!" crowd. Magic is most definitely not cyberpunk.

[Ancient History]

Magic is most definitely not cyberpunk.

I wouldn't say magic is cyberpunk, but I wouldn't immediately discount it as not being cyberpunk either. Mirrorshades, the original and definitive cyberpunk anthology, included stories with magic. Bruce Sterling wrote "The Little Magic Shop" and "The Unthinkable." Many cyberpunk stories, including Neuromancer, deal with technology and reality in ways that do not conform to the real world, and there is a very strong literary camp describing Gibson's fiction as "magic realism" rather than science fiction.

That is of course leaving aside the early cyberpunk/magic crossovers like the Bordertown/Borderland anthologies and the SERRAted Edge novels and crap. Elves & Chrome. Hell, even Cyberpunk 2020 had rules for vampires in one adventure/supplement, if I remember correctly.

[Jeff Hauze]

Many cyberpunk stories, including Neuromancer, deal with technology and reality in ways that do not conform to the real world, and there is a very strong literary camp describing Gibson's fiction as "magic realism" rather than science fiction.

I'd also consider that opinion mistaken. The tech isn't advanced enough to fit the "law" about tech being magic, and most importantly, Gibson's own insults against Shadowrun make it pretty clear what the author thinks in terms of magic fitting with his vision of cyberpunk.

SERRAted Edge might have managed a few drops of cyberpunk in it at best, and I say that as a fan of them when I was a kid. Additionally, a single adventure in the entire wealth of the CP game setting, dealing not specifically with magic but vampires, seems to be pretty clear on the setting's thoughts on magic.

Opinions will obviously vary, which is all that strong literary camp has as well. I tend to feel this way, because I think it does a grave disservice to early SR to say magic is cyberpunk. And I happen to really kind of like early SR, so I'd rather not do it a disservice.

[Serious Paul]

I'm not as picky as Jeff, as I figure there's room in the genre for all of it. I like Magic in Shadowrun-not at the same level the pink mohwak crowd might like it, but I do like it. It adds some unpredictability to the game.

[3278]

Is there an implication there that The Crow is cyberpunk?

There's a fair amount of common ground, yeah.

I'm not seeing it. Some organized crime, yeah, and little guy against bigger guy, but that hardly cyberpunk makes. Where's the megacorps, the mirrorshades, the cybernetics, the global telecommunications, the high tech in general? Aren't those things essential to the core of what it is to be cyberpunk?

Never said it was cyberpunk. Don't know why folks thought I did. I said, there's a fair amount of common ground.

Well, for my part, it was that, "yeah" that implied that, "yeah, the Crow is cyberpunk, there's a fair amount of common ground." If you just mean they have a lot in common, but don't mean that the Crow is cyberpunk, then we don't disagree.

Shadowrun itself isn't straight cyberpunk, much to the chagrin of the die-hard "We should go back to the Pink Mohawks!" crowd. Magic is most definitely not cyberpunk.

Definitely. I think Shadowrun is cyberpunk+magic, which doesn't make it "not cyberpunk," but like you say, makes it not "straight cyberpunk." I like it that way - otherwise I'd have played Cyberpunk 2020 - but the point of it was definitely, "Hey, what if we could play Cyberpunk 2020 and D&D at the same time?"

[Serious Paul]

Didn't we play Rifts once?

[3278]

I think we even have some of the books again! ...yay?

[Serious Paul]

Heh. All of this makes me want to start a game back up again....ponders...

[3278]

It'd be interesting to do a game for 2012 where you take a modern setting and set up the roots of what will become cyberpunk, and in so doing compare and contrast the reality of today to the fiction of cyberpunk. Then, once you've got your foundation - high-tech low-life anti-hero criminals working for/against modern multinational corporations, with just enough changes made to reality to set up for Shadowrun - you play through the Awakening, of the setting and some of the characters. Too bad we're not 17.

[Serious Paul]

Right now I'd settle for anything that was at least once a month.

[AtemHutlrt]

Right now I'd settle for anything that was at least once a month.

At the rate we've been going, I'd settle for anything that was at least once a year.

[3278]

Or once, period.

[3278]

Cyberpunk may be dead, as a sub-genre, but it's passed its memes into the collective subconscious such that millions of people watched The Matrix or played Deus Ex without ever hearing the word cyberpunk. The issues it raises couldn't be more relevant: megacorporations, increasing influence of hackers, man-machine interfaces, global telecommunications, the growing class divide.

...and coffin motels.

[Serious Paul]

That's a Russian company right?

[3278]

Yeah: apparently, layovers in Moscow are a bitch.

[Bonefish]

More proof that Russia must be destroyed.