Freedom of Speech, Rap Lyrics and why is Nigger a bad word?

[Crazy Elf]

That's not an answer to the question I asked. I didn't ask "are," I asked, "should." It was, in fact, essential to the point I was making.

And my answer was essential to the point I was making. The Blacks are already forced into the White cultural box. I think everybody should be forced to understand the cultural circumstances of anyone they're dealing with.

Don't you live reasonably close to east Asia? Can you actually say this with a straight face, knowing what you must surely know: that Western culture is and has been for a very long time more accepting of different cultures than much of the rest of the world. America, specifically, is made by these cultures.

Most of this is detailed in my response to Paul, however the living reasonably close to Asia section (living <i>in</i> Asia, actually) of your comment brings to my mind a good example of cultural backlash.

Over here, Schapelle Corby was found guilty of drug charges in Indonesia, and was given 20 years. The media made this into a huge issue, as she was a pretty white girl. The Bali Nine received next to no media attention. In any case, Schapelle was found guilty and thrown in prison. The outcry in Australia consisted of the following points:

- She wouldn't have done something that stupid, there's no money to be made (found false by journalists, who were not allowed to run the story as it went against the grain of coverage).
- Clearly, some baggage handlers in Bali planted the drugs on her.
- The Indonesian court didn't know what they were doing.
- 20 years is too harsh a sentence for drug smuggling.

Most of the public calls were for her to be brought back to Australia for a "real trial" as the Indonesian court wasn't reliable. The idea that someone could get 20 years for such an act was completely appalling to many Australians, but they had no problem with the Bali bomber getting the death sentence by the same system. Harsh justice was okay for Asians, not Whites. The idea that things could be, and were, done differently in other countries was unpalatable to the Australian public. They wanted things done their way.

Are you telling me that there's some kind of problem with me acting differently when I'm on an Amish farm?

How often are you forced to work on an Amish farm?

[3278]

I think everybody should be forced to understand the cultural circumstances of anyone they're dealing with.

I don't think anybody should ever be forced to do anything of the kind. Enforced tolerance doesn't work, and is a violation, I believe, of our most basic rights.

Are you telling me that there's some kind of problem with me acting differently when I'm on an Amish farm?

How often are you forced to work on an Amish farm?

Never.

[Serious Paul]

I don't think anybody should ever be forced to do anything of the kind. Enforced tolerance doesn't work, and is a violation, I believe, of our most basic rights.

I couldn't possibly agree more.

[Serious Paul]

Although the media constantly places Black culture on a pedestal, it's only really a facade.

Pedestal? Which media is this? Some of the media out there indeed glorifies a portion of black culture, but since black culture isn't something you can pigeon hole with just a simple label, anymore than you could just say white culture, I'm not following you.

The manner by which politics and the legal system operates is still very much from a White standpoint.

Well to be more specific it's from a Judeo-Christian standpoint. Think I'm happy with that? While I'd certainly agree that politics in this country have traditionally seen "White", white in this case meaning christians of a European descent, filling the majority of positions in the government this is no longer nearly as true as it once was, and is changing every single day. This isn't a static nation, in which there is no change.

The war on drugs is a fantastic example of this. Minority communities, in which individuals would have great trouble achieving economic well being by traditional means (ie, White), ended up running and dealing in drugs.

How is this different in any lower income neighborhood regardless of racial composition? In any era?

The war on drugs then takes places, which disproportionately affects minority communities.

It's hardly that simple.

Gangs are formed as a results of both over policing and complete distrust for a police system that targets minorities.

And for a hundred other reasons.

Due to the ineffective role of the police in these communities, gangs end up forming as an alternative to the police.

In some communities, maybe. In all minority communities? Me thinks you've watched New Jack City one too many times.

Both drugs and gangs are made illegal

Drugs were specifically made illegal by Christians who feared that too many white christians would fall prey to Morphine, and had little to nothing to do with drugs like Cocaine and Crack which weren't envisioned or even understood by these people.The only minority really feared was the Chinese, who had been saddled with the repuatation of Opium Dens.

Gangs aren't illegal. Anywhere.

and laws to that effect are not going to be affecting Whites in any way, and are completely devoid of any social understanding surrounding the issues.

Because there are no white gangs? No white poor? No white slums? No white ghettos? To be poor you have to be black eh? What about Hispanics? And Asians? Are we going to force them to be tolerant too?

They're simply illegal acts, and have to stop. No alternatives are put in place.

Why does the government have to emplace alternatives? Why can't you find your own? What prevents the communities from deciding whats best for their own communities?

Oh wait. Nothing does.

As a result, the message is that minority groups cannot do things by their own means, but must do it, "The right way." The White way.

You and I truly live in different worlds. As a person who spends an awful lot of time around people who have dealt drugs, killed people, and been in actual gangs I'd love to sit you you down with these people and let them hear your version of the story.

If I thought they could stop laughing long enough to take you seriously I'd be willing to bet you'd walk away with a whole new understanding on what being poor and black really means.

Even if you don't support drugs or gangs, there still must be the recognition that the manner by which these groups have been dealt with is completely devoid of any cultural understanding whatsoever.

By whom?

Yet, the melting pot is set to the heat of Western culture.

Agreed, however the heat, as you put it, isn't set by the government or any law. It is set by the citizenry.

Anything that doesn't fit into that mould is forced to adapt.

I think you're quite wrong here, as evidenced by the rapidly changing society I live in.I can look in a phone book and see just how wrong you are.

The differences aren't as vast as the differences between Blacks and Whites and Hispanics.

Those differences aren't nearly as vast you seem to be making them out to be. And they're shrinking each day. Nor are the insurmountable. Nor are they a result of government regulations or law.

The idea that Western values are universal is completely devoid of the cultural values of any other society.

Western culture is entirely comprised of other cultures. There is no Western culture. No ancient American civilization.

Human rights are not universally agreed upon.

Well we agree here.

Last check with the UN had many of the original human rights decrees overturned by the majority of countries due to the power of China and its allies.

I think that's vastly simplified, once again to fit your world view, and of course not necessarily relevant.

In the West, they are all judged from the same standard.

Ha! While I certainly agree those crazy christians have too much power, they are far from creating a single unified standard and enforcing it. This isn't a Rage Against the Machine album or the movies Joey. America isn't that cut and dried. Perfect? Certainly not. Needs lots of work? Absolutely! But things aren't nearly the way you make them out to be.

[TLM]

Shockingly, I have to agree with Serious Paul. If nothing else, the sheer level of general weirdness that finds its way out of the USA should put the "homogenous country" myth to rest.

The idea that Western values are universal is completely devoid of the cultural values of any other society.

Western culture is entirely comprised of other cultures. There is no Western culture. No ancient American civilization.

Insofar as there is any western culture to speak of, it could concievably fall under European, or more accurately Anglo-Germano-Frankish culture. Depending on how you define culture, that is.

[WillyGilligan]

I thought that Western Civilization (culture) is counted as most of the stuff the ancient Greeks started that got exported to other places.

[TLM]

I thought that Western Civilization (culture) is counted as most of the stuff the ancient Greeks started that got exported to other places.

Go far enough back and we're all Sumerian or Egyptian.

[WillyGilligan]

Cuz I'm OFC (Original Fertile Crescenter)

[Crazy Elf]

I don't think anybody should ever be forced to do anything of the kind. Enforced tolerance doesn't work, and is a violation, I believe, of our most basic rights.

It can be made part of an educational curriculum, which amounts to the same thing. One class committed to cultural understanding when the rest of them reinforce a Western view of the world isn't asking much.

How often are you forced to work on an Amish farm?

Never.

Then it's not really the same thing when you say that "passing" is similar. Your Black associate is forced to pass due to economic concerns. It's not an option for him to behave otherwise. I'm not saying that he should be able to, I'm simply saying that he is forced to conform to a White standard.

Well to be more specific it's from a Judeo-Christian standpoint. Think I'm happy with that?

I never said you were. The view I'm presenting here is the cultural hegemony of Whites/Europeans/Western society, whatever you want to call it, over any other culture in the US. Judeo-Christian is another way of saying this.

This isn't a static nation, in which there is no change.

The change is much more about other cultural practices being sacrificed in favor of a more Western outlook. When Hispanic workers were protesting a law... which I think stopped their children if born in the country from gaining citizenship but I don't have the source on me right now, they used a Mexican flag. People complained, saying they should use an American flag, which they later did. Of course, they naturally identify themselves with Mexican culture, which is far more representative of them as people when they're protesting a system that is trying to remove them, but instead of presenting the opposite side of the coin they had to wave an American flag.

That's like supporting your favorite sporting team at another team's stadium, waving that home team's colours instead.

It's hardly that simple.

Minorities are over-policed in the war on drugs. It's hardly more complex than that.

In some communities, maybe. In all minority communities?

Of course, not all. The foundations of these movements tends to be due to these reasons, traditionally. There is drama associated with such formations now, but I doubt very much that these roots are devoid in most gangs. Bikers and Asian gangs over here still gain a shitload of respect from the communities they're a part of in this country, and dis-include the police. I can't see it as being too different over there.

Drugs were specifically made illegal by Christians who feared that too many white christians would fall prey to Morphine

Same thing over here. Opium was made illegal to crack down on the Chinese. Dog whistle politics, we call it.

Gangs aren't illegal. Anywhere.

Yet, in many police forces, there are gang task forces.

Because there are no white gangs? No white poor? No white slums? No white ghettos? To be poor you have to be black eh? What about Hispanics? And Asians? Are we going to force them to be tolerant too?

This isn't what I'm arguing. I'm speaking about the cultural hegemony of Whites over any other group in the US. I'm not saying that Whites don't fall into the same social conditions. They very rarely, however, fall into the same cultural ones.

Why does the government have to emplace alternatives? Why can't you find your own? What prevents the communities from deciding whats best for their own communities?

Gang task forces and the war on drugs are two good examples.

Agreed, however the heat, as you put it, isn't set by the government or any law. It is set by the citizenry.

Which in turn elects government, which in turn has to appease the citizenry. Chicken or egg, it's still cultural hegemony.

I can look in a phone book and see just how wrong you are.

A larger grouping of minority groups does not mean that they are not being forced into a Western mould. It means that one day they may not have to be, but that doesn't stop it happening now. It <i>is</i> happening now.

Like it or not, Western society has cultural hegemony in the US. This in turn means White society, as it was imported from Europe and the Whites there. That may change eventually, but it's certainly not going to happen any time soon. Until then, everyone else is going to be set against the cultural tune of that culture. If you sing in a different key, you're going to have to come into line with the dominant tune. People can't help but colour everything from the shades of their own cultural practices and teaching. The problem is that they don't realise that they're doing it. I'm constantly encountering racist drivel in much of what I'm working on, currently, and I find it highly unlikely that the authors realise that it is as such. The practice of judging anything different to your own cultural perspective as inferior to it is a massive issue. To think it isn't is to believe in your own perspective's superiority.

[Serious Paul]

It can be made part of an educational curriculum, which amounts to the same thing. One class committed to cultural understanding when the rest of them reinforce a Western view of the world isn't asking much.

You're right, it's not asking anything. It's forcing. You just can't enforce tolerance. While I agree it behooves everyone to learn as much as they can about everything and everyone, that is my personal preference-which should not be law.

I was never required to take a "cultural understanding course", but I think I'm pretty sensible when it comes to understanding my world view isn't prime, or even supposed to be prime.

How do you teach that?

The view I'm presenting here is the cultural hegemony of Whites/Europeans/Western society, whatever you want to call it, over any other culture in the US. Judeo-Christian is another way of saying this.

I will certainly agree they've managed to be over represented over the years, but I don't see that changing through legal mandate. Civil Rights laws in the 1960's would have meant exactly squat if society hadn't been ready for a change.

The Civil Rights Movement reflected a change in society, not the other way around. Whatever laws you'd like to see enacted, no matter how well intentioned, seem pretty likely- to me-to fail if they don't have the popular support they need.

You can't force social change. Look at the old Soviet system. It failed, and what you're looking to do, while not on the same magnitude as I understand it, seems to take a similar route.

The change is much more about other cultural practices being sacrificed in favor of a more Western outlook.

I think this is definitely true sometimes. But this is neither forced by any set of laws (Yet, I am against the idea of standardizing English as the national language, as an aside.) or particular social moray.

And to be honest with you, this sort of thing is becoming much less common. In fact you can see the opposite occurring pretty regularly: most government publications are in English and Spanish, many health care providers require translating and interpreting services, and are actively seeking out cultural advice to improve quality of care.

Change is sort of what makes this nation successful.

That's like supporting your favorite sporting team at another team's stadium, waving that home team's colours instead.

So what's your opinion on peer based pressure and drinking? Should we legislate that too? because no law required them to switch flags in this example. Social pressure did.

Minorities are over-policed in the war on drugs. It's hardly more complex than that.

Everyone is over policed on the war on drugs.

But lets approach this from a different angle. More white guys are locked up for being pedophiles than blacks and hispanics. Should we then assume more whites commit these crimes?

...but I doubt very much that these roots are devoid in most gangs.

I think you'd be surprised. Gang culture changes so fast, and has so little real research and empirical data available that what we think we know isn't always true.

I can't see it as being too different over there.

It is.Well in some places. Just like anywhere some people, in some cultures have a fascination with all things gang related. For almost everyone else it's just hip-hop music.

Yet, in many police forces, there are gang task forces.

Yup.

This isn't what I'm arguing. I'm speaking about the cultural hegemony of Whites over any other group in the US. I'm not saying that Whites don't fall into the same social conditions. They very rarely, however, fall into the same cultural ones.

Why not? What social conditions are culturally unique?

Gang task forces and the war on drugs are two good examples.

Examples of what?

Which in turn elects government, which in turn has to appease the citizenry. Chicken or egg, it's still cultural hegemony.

Unless I woke up in Bizzaro world I have no idea what you're discussing. There is no Cultural Hegemony here.

A larger grouping of minority groups does not mean that they are not being forced into a Western mould. It means that one day they may not have to be, but that doesn't stop it happening now. It <i>is</i> happening now.

Maybe in some places, sometimes. But you're way off base. It really isn't the 1950's anymore.

That may change eventually, but it's certainly not going to happen any time soon.

It's been happening since 1789. Maybe even longer.

The practice of judging anything different to your own cultural perspective as inferior to it is a massive issue.

And certainly not unique to any society or culture.

[Jeff Hauze]

Everyone is over policed on the war on drugs.

I was really hoping somebody would bring up this point. The war on drugs isn't bullshit because of racial profiling. The war on drugs is bullshit, because it is an abject failure on addressing the fucking issue.

[Crazy Elf]

You're right, it's not asking anything. It's forcing. You just can't enforce tolerance. While I agree it behooves everyone to learn as much as they can about everything and everyone, that is my personal preference-which should not be law.

Right, here's where we're getting off point. It was not my intention to tell you what the US should be doing when I began this line of inquiry, but rather to point out that decisions made are done so from a Western mindset that often overlooks cultural mindsets that are different. Part of the Western mindset is the assumption that its values are universal. This may not be specific to the Western mindset, but it's certainly most profound within it. As such, when there is a cultural jarring between the two the West assumes the other mindset to be backward and incorrect.

This happens. Daily. Look at any report on Islam, or China, or Africa. There is a belittling attitude that goes into the coverage of such areas, as though, "Why can't they all just get along like we do?" There's also a push for Western governments to intervene, as though what those other societies really need is White people telling them what to do. This assumption runs very deep in Western mindsets, so much so that it's very hard to realise that it's there at all.

What can be done about it? Well steps can be taken, but it's very hard to remove yourself from that process. Hell, I do it all the fucking time, although I catch myself more and more these days. To say that this process doesn't take place would be a lie, and to say that it doesn't have an effect of policing would also be a lie. There's no catch all solution to such a thing, but it does exist.

Most of what you're debating is my opinion on what should be done, because I've let that creep in. I do that. The key point I'm making, however, I don't think <i>can</i> be disputed without blatant denial.

I will certainly agree they've managed to be over represented over the years, but I don't see that changing through legal mandate

You're correct. Steps can be taken, that is all.

And to be honest with you, this sort of thing is becoming much less common. In fact you can see the opposite occurring pretty regularly: most government publications are in English and Spanish, many health care providers require translating and interpreting services, and are actively seeking out cultural advice to improve quality of care.

Yes, but it doesn't stop the mindsets from taking place. As much as there are movements toward social change in some areas, other areas have remained pretty conservative. Change doesn't occur equally across the board. I'd be willing to bet that such a change is having trouble affecting the police force to a large degree as of yet, which was originally what was being discussed.

So what's your opinion on peer based pressure and drinking? Should we legislate that too? because no law required them to switch flags in this example. Social pressure did.

My example was of the US cultural hegemony in action. Understanding as to why the Mexican flag was the choice of the day rather than an American one wasn't discussed. Instead, it was pointed out that an American one should have been chosen. That's a good example of cultural hegemony. Social pressure <i>is</i> cultural hegemony.

Everyone is over policed on the war on drugs.

That may be, but it disproportionately affects minority groups.

But lets approach this from a different angle. More white guys are locked up for being pedophiles than blacks and hispanics. Should we then assume more whites commit these crimes?

No, I'd assume that such a breakdown was due to there being more White guys in the population at large than Blacks and Hispanics. I'd also assume that such a breakdown was due to Black and Hispanic children feeling less at ease approaching the police than White children. Primarily the first point, though.

I think you'd be surprised. Gang culture changes so fast, and has so little real research and empirical data available that what we think we know isn't always true.

Yet, despite a lack of data, we still have gang task forces that are "experts" in the field.

Why not? What social conditions are culturally unique?

None, clearly, apart from not being able to speak the language. Cultural and social conditions are very different things.

Example. Over here Aboriginal youths from the Northern Territory are scouted for their football playing skills, and taken down to Victoria. They do amazing things with a football, and are offered tens of thousands of dollars in contracts, which would require them to stay in Victoria for around nine months of the year. It's an opportunity that most football fans would execute a puppy and small child in order to get their fingers around, but the Aboriginal kids say, "No thanks", and get on the next plane back to the NT and to their community. Most Australians look at that behaviour and say, "You stupid little fuck! Why the hell didn't you take it!? You're going to be forced to live in your shit little community for the rest of your life, you've missed your chance!"

It doesn't occur to them that the cultural value on community, and family, is so much more important in the Aboriginal culture than money ever could be.

Social conditions and cultural conditions are not the same thing.

[Serious Paul]

... but rather to point out that decisions made are done so from a Western mindset that often overlooks cultural mindsets that are different.

And in some cases, you are completely correct. Just not all, or all the time. Nor is it inevitable that all decisions ever made will be from this standpoint.

Part of the Western mindset is the assumption that its values are universal.

I think you're wrong here. I think in some parts of American culture that's true. But I think you over estimate both the scope and effects.

This happens. Daily. Look at any report on Islam, or China, or Africa. There is a belittling attitude that goes into the coverage of such areas, as though, "Why can't they all just get along like we do?"

Not everyone in America buys into that. And while I agree it is what is selling right now, look at the success of Fox News which sells news media to the right wing.

There's also a push for Western governments to intervene, as though what those other societies really need is White people telling them what to do.

Isn't that what you're suggesting? Only your intervention is necassary and "just"? Isn't your "tolerance training" a white perspective? After all you're as white as anyone you're criticizing.

This assumption runs very deep in Western mindsets, so much so that it's very hard to realise that it's there at all.

I think people know it's there, but that doesn't mean they care. And that doesn't mean it's a significant problem, or even a solvable problem.

The key point I'm making, however, I don't think <i>can</i> be disputed without blatant denial.

I think your key point is over blown, but no one has denied that you are correct: In some parts of some cultures some people make stupid decisions based on emotion rather than reason.

Yes, but it doesn't stop the mindsets from taking place.

Unlike you I am unwilling to force the mindset to change. What gives you the right, the mandate to force people to change?

Social pressure <i>is</i> cultural hegemony.

So drinking because you're peers want you to is cultural hegemony? Smoking too? and drug use? I think you're mistaking the forest for the trees.

That may be, but it disproportionately affects minority groups.

How?

No, I'd assume that such a breakdown was due to there being more White guys in the population at large than Blacks and Hispanics.

You're wrong.

I'd also assume that such a breakdown was due to Black and Hispanic children feeling less at ease approaching the police than White children. Primarily the first point, though.

While your second point may have some validity, I think it doesn't come anywhere to reality. The reality is we have no idea why.

Yet, despite a lack of data, we still have gang task forces that are "experts" in the field.

Depending on how you define expert, maybe. Some claim to be experts certainly-but not all gang task forces are choads, with no inkling of what they're doing.

None, clearly, apart from not being able to speak the language.

So just language barriers? Oh wait, no...

Cultural and social conditions are very different things.

Example. Over here Aboriginal youths from the Northern Territory are scouted for their football playing skills, and taken down to Victoria. They do amazing things with a football, and are offered tens of thousands of dollars in contracts, which would require them to stay in Victoria for around nine months of the year. It's an opportunity that most football fans would execute a puppy and small child in order to get their fingers around, but the Aboriginal kids say, "No thanks", and get on the next plane back to the NT and to their community. Most Australians look at that behaviour and say, "You stupid little fuck! Why the hell didn't you take it!? You're going to be forced to live in your shit little community for the rest of your life, you've missed your chance!"

It doesn't occur to them that the cultural value on community, and family, is so much more important in the Aboriginal culture than money ever could be.

Social conditions and cultural conditions are not the same thing.

Your story while quaint and sad isn't reality in America. Black society isn't dependent on sports scholarships and more than the Hispanic population needs to sell Tequila and play baseball.

While it is true that diversity is still a job, it just isn't the issue you're making it out to be. I get you like playing the under dog. When a group of atheist are in the room, you become the sole christian. When it's a group of white kids, you're the champion of the minority. In a room straights you're Mr. Sexuality is okay.

But really in this case you're getting fired up for no reason. Americans know there is a problem, and we've been working on fixing it for decades.

[Crazy Elf]

Paul, I can't go through the postings piece by piece anymore. It's just taking way too much time. I'll try to give a summary of my position.

I really don't think that I'm inflating the position that I'm presenting at all. The foundations of this position come from various sources, theories such Said's Orientalism show the process, and Sprinzac shows how Orientalism tends to take place as a tool of delegitimisation. Granted, my focus on these topics is more concerned about terrorism, but the trickle down effects, or trickle up effects as the case may be, can be seen occurring constantly. It's much much much more profound when the US has to deal with another country not typically classified as Western, but can still be seen within the country in the way in which it deals with people from those societies.

I don't feel that I'm inflating the issue in regards to the police in this country. They over police minority groups and the media reports on the minority groups with very limited understanding. From the little time that I've spent in the US, it didn't seem all that different. Perhaps, on the micro management scale, things are different. Perhaps the system is getting better at dealing with these issues. Even if that is so, however, the overriding process of cultural hegemony is still affects perceptions of cultures outside of "the norm".

You feel I over inflate the issue. I feel you're turning a blind eye to it. I don't think that we're really going to be able to break down each other's positions more than that at this point. It will be good to actually talk this through next I'm down.

We really need a list for when we see each other again.

[3278]

I don't think anybody should ever be forced to do anything of the kind. Enforced tolerance doesn't work, and is a violation, I believe, of our most basic rights.

It can be made part of an educational curriculum, which amounts to the same thing. One class committed to cultural understanding when the rest of them reinforce a Western view of the world isn't asking much.

I don't think it's the job of the government or the school systems to teach tolerance. That's up to parents and members of groups that would like to be tolerated more. I do not believe the correct solution to any problem is, "Have the government take care of it," and it amazes me how often people who complain constantly about my government still put it up as the solution to all the world's ills. I mean, you seriously want the same organization that handled the latest war in Iraq to handle cultural tolerance classes?

How often are you forced to work on an Amish farm?

Never.

Then it's not really the same thing when you say that "passing" is similar. Your Black associate is forced to pass due to economic concerns. It's not an option for him to behave otherwise.

That's completely untrue, and I'm uncertain how you could make such an assertion in the absolute absence of information. He isn't forced to pass at all; it's a choice he makes, to fit in better, just as I make the choice to fit in better when I'm around the Amish. No one forces either of us to do anything.

Do you have any indication that "force by economic necessity" is common, and thus should set government policy, or is your information determined by apocrypha and media?

I'm not saying that he should be able to, I'm simply saying that he is forced to conform to a White standard.

And I'm saying he'd beat your ass for saying that. You don't, pardon me saying, know shit about him, and as far as I can tell, know shit about black culture in the United States. Which is fair, since my grasp on Australian culture is yet weaker, but that's why I don't talk about your cultural problems, because I'd look a little dumb trying to talk about something I only know about from secondhand extremist reports.

Like it or not, Western society has cultural hegemony in the US. This in turn means White society, as it was imported from Europe and the Whites there.

This is totally true. Now, it would be absurd to assert that white culture is the only culture, and in fact, it's no longer even the most populous culture, but it is the "dominant" culture, certainly, just like the dominant culture in England is British, or the dominant culture in Germany is German. Now, we have a mix of European cultures here which has led to something like an American culture [inasmuch as you can get one in a few centuries], which makes us a lot more accepting than most everywhere else.

But all that aside, you're right, it's hard for Hmongs to fit into our culture. Some people have jobs specifically to help them fit with our medical culture, we're so fucking stupidly tolerant of other people's dumb-shit notions. And we take in the superficialities of black, hispanic, and asian cultures like we're the Roman Empire.

Until then, everyone else is going to be set against the cultural tune of that culture. If you sing in a different key, you're going to have to come into line with the dominant tune.

And this is where you're wrong. No one has to come into line; some choose to, while others choose to hole up with others of their kind and never try to fit. But mostly, what happens is that everyone adjusts. When we got motorcars, and the Amish kept buggies, they had to get used to us driving past them, and we had to get used to driving around them. We adjusted, each culture. Everyone gives a little. And if you don't think "white culture" has bent to accept "black culture," then you're ignorant of the cultural conditions of America, and I invite you to come to Grand Rapids and watch the show.

[Crazy Elf]

I don't think it's the job of the government or the school systems to teach tolerance.

Fuck that. Tolerance has to come from somewhere, and although social groups within the society can lead the way, the manner by which the US looks at not only cultures that differ within its boarders but also the rest of the world is arrogant and very incorrect. The majority of US citizens do this, and that is indicative of both the media structures in place within the country, and also the educational system. Understanding comes from education. If you don't provide it, it won't come.

That's completely untrue, and I'm uncertain how you could make such an assertion in the absolute absence of information. He isn't forced to pass at all; it's a choice he makes, to fit in better, just as I make the choice to fit in better when I'm around the Amish. No one forces either of us to do anything.

That is such utter bullshit. If he doesn't "fit in better" then he's unlikely to retain his job, or to have received the position in the first place. You can state that it's a choice as much as you like, but the fact is that in order to maintain his position he must behave in a manner that is different from his typical social practices. I'm not saying that he should come into work and behave in a manner that would alienate him from the rest of his work colleagues, just that he is forced to conform to the cultural hegemony.

And I'm saying he'd beat your ass for saying that. You don't, pardon me saying, know shit about him, and as far as I can tell, know shit about black culture in the United States. Which is fair, since my grasp on Australian culture is yet weaker, but that's why I don't talk about your cultural problems, because I'd look a little dumb trying to talk about something I only know about from secondhand extremist reports.

Granted, I don't know the guy, but if you want to cite him as an example I'm only going to be able to pass comment on the information that I'm given. Don't put forward an example and then say, "Oh, but you don't know enough about this particular individual to dispute my point!" That is utter bullshit, and you know it. I'm talking about process, not individuals. The process is clearly in action here.

But all that aside, you're right, it's hard for Hmongs to fit into our culture. Some people have jobs specifically to help them fit with our medical culture, we're so fucking stupidly tolerant of other people's dumb-shit notions. And we take in the superficialities of black, hispanic, and asian cultures like we're the Roman Empire.

Do I really have to point out that the stance you're presenting here reeks of cultural hegemony. The "superficialities of black, hispanic, and asian cultures"?

And if you don't think "white culture" has bent to accept "black culture," then you're ignorant of the cultural conditions of America, and I invite you to come to Grand Rapids and watch the show.

Certainly, Whites have have to bend toward acceptance of Blacks. The Blacks, however, have had to bend a shitload more.

[3278]

I don't think it's the job of the government or the school systems to teach tolerance.

Fuck that. Tolerance has to come from somewhere, and although social groups within the society can lead the way, the manner by which the US looks at not only cultures that differ within its boarders but also the rest of the world is arrogant and very incorrect.

"The US?" Like there's enough homogeneity to describe my entire 300-million-person nation as looking at other cultures arrogantly and incorrectly.

Anyway, yes, tolerance has to come from somewhere, but unless it comes from the individual, I don't generally find it particularly compelling. [Although I am, as noted to Szechuan, torn on the issue of efficacy, I'm not torn on the issue of rightness.] But I don't like government legislating morality, because I don't want to wake up tomorrow to find my morality has been legislated against. I value personal freedom over social tolerance, though, and you don't, so it's natural we disagree.

The majority of US citizens do this...

The majority of US citizens look at cultures which differ within its borders and the rest of the world arrogantly and incorrectly? That's what you're saying? Do you have any kind of evidence to back that up, or is that just opinion formed on the, uh, how many times have you been here? What's your other exposure to "the majority of US citizens?" Our media?

I don't think you know enough about my nation to judge the relative cultural tolerance of the majority of its citizens. I live here, and I don't think I'm qualified to do that.

I'm also curious if you find this flaw unique to the US, or more precisely, if you think, in other nations, most people aren't arrogant and incorrect in their viewing of cultural tolerance. Certainly, the way you view "American culture" is arrogant, if not proveably incorrect. Your presumption that you know, understand, and can judge the quality of tolerance in the majority of 300 million people is astonishingly arrogant.

If he doesn't "fit in better" then he's unlikely to retain his job, or to have received the position in the first place.

Uh, really? How do you know that? Let's not speak specifically, since it's not fair, as you say, to use an example of which you are ignorant, but in general, you think that if someone doesn't pass, they're "unlikely to retain [their] job, or to have received their position in the first place?" How do you know that?

You can state that it's a choice as much as you like, but the fact is that in order to maintain his position he must behave in a manner that is different from his typical social practices.

Wow. Yeah, I never have to behave differently from my typical social practices at work. Those abortion jokes, in particular, go over real well in the office.

I'm not saying that he should come into work and behave in a manner that would alienate him from the rest of his work colleagues, just that he is forced to conform to the cultural hegemony.

THERE IS NO CULTURAL HEGEMONY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

But all that aside, you're right, it's hard for Hmongs to fit into our culture. Some people have jobs specifically to help them fit with our medical culture, we're so fucking stupidly tolerant of other people's dumb-shit notions. And we take in the superficialities of black, hispanic, and asian cultures like we're the Roman Empire.

Do I really have to point out that the stance you're presenting here reeks of cultural hegemony. The "superficialities of black, hispanic, and asian cultures"?

I'm sorry: you misunderstand. We take in the superficialities - the music, literature, art, slang, and so on - of other cultures like we're the Roman Empire. I'm not saying those cultures are superficial, I'm saying we accept the superficialities of their cultures.

[Crazy Elf]

Stating something in giant text doesn't make it true. Western cultural hegemony is present in not only the US, but in all Western countries. That's why they're Western. Some are better at dealing with other cultures, but the US certainly isn't one of them. For fuck's sake, some polls have 70% of US citizens believing that Saddam was behind 9/11, due to being located in the Middle East and being Muslim. The cultural complexities of the Middle East and Islam are completely lost on the majority of the population, not only in the US, but also in a great many Western countries. Australia is certainly among them.

I can't see how perceptions such as this can't be extended toward minority groups within the country. A few Asian restaurants doesn't make you accepting of Asians. Some jive talk on TV doesn't mean you feel comfortable around a bunch of Blacks. That's all superficial, the issues remain.

[Serious Paul]

For fuck's sake, some polls have 70% of US citizens believing that Saddam was behind 9/11, due to being located in the Middle East and being Muslim.

I've never found polls to be a very accurate representation of this nation. They just can't emulate the real scope or variety of not only citizens, but non citizens-who do make up a part of this nation.

[3278]

Western cultural hegemony is present in not only the US, but in all Western countries. That's why they're Western.

Stating something axiomatically doesn't make it true, either. Sorry, but as a member of a western nation - like you are - I don't see the hegemony. What you see as hegemony is simply the cultural average. It's like someone taking 300 million lights of all different colors and shining them on a wall: it sure does look white, but it quite simply isn't.

Some are better at dealing with other cultures, but the US certainly isn't one of them. For fuck's sake, some polls have 70% of US citizens believing that Saddam was behind 9/11, due to being located in the Middle East and being Muslim.

That has absolutely nothing to do with cultural hegemony or homogeneity. "Stupid" isn't a cultural property, nor is "ignorant," nor is, "gullible." These aren't symptoms of hegemony, they're symptoms of being easily fooled, and that's a human trait, not some kind of uniquely Western or American trait.

The cultural complexities of the Middle East and Islam are completely lost on the majority of the population, not only in the US, but also in a great many Western countries.

And obviously, the cultural complexities of the United States and the West are completely lost on the majority of...well, you, anyway. I don't feel reasonably equipped to make sweeping generalizations about hundreds of millions of people, so I won't try to extend my statement to "the majority of the population" of dozens of nations.

A few Asian restaurants doesn't make you accepting of Asians. Some jive talk on TV doesn't mean you feel comfortable around a bunch of Blacks. That's all superficial, the issues remain.

"The issues?" What are those issues? Specifically what isn't being done in America that you feel should be, and does that condition apply uniquely to the West, or America? What do you mean, specifically, by "cultural intolerance," and is it a fault elsewhere?

Frankly, I think if we're going to talk hegemony and intolerance, we should talk about France, which is, like, eight times worse about it, with half the provocation, as the US. But I understand we're your favorite whipping boy, even when the same flaws exist throughout the entirety of human existence.

[3278]

I am endlessly entertained, by the way, with the implication that we have to be tolerant of everyone...except intolerant people. Those people, we must legislate away, because clearly intolerance is not to be tolerated! The notion that tolerance is "right" and intolerance "wrong" reeks of moral absolutism and drips with irony, creating a pungent brew that I, personally, cannot stomach.

[TLM]

I am endlessly entertained, by the way, with the implication that we have to be tolerant of everyone...except intolerant people. Those people, we must legislate away, because clearly intolerance is not to be tolerated! The notion that tolerance is "right" and intolerance "wrong" reeks of moral absolutism and drips with irony, creating a pungent brew that I, personally, cannot stomach.

Nonsense. We must not legislate any such thing. One should, however, make sure that white/black/yellow/red/whetever-supremacists are aware that if they try to emulate the practices of those who came before them (lynchings, segregation, slavery, genocide, etc.) this will be frowned upon, severely. And some things are plainly wrong enough to warrant intervention by the government; Murder, for instance. Slavery as another.

Intolerance isn't "Wrong". The actions intolerance often leads to, are. Those are usually covered by other laws alerady, though. But let me ask a question: If any US state wished to ressurect segregation, should they be allowed to? [/i]

[3278]

I am endlessly entertained, by the way, with the implication that we have to be tolerant of everyone...except intolerant people. Those people, we must legislate away, because clearly intolerance is not to be tolerated! The notion that tolerance is "right" and intolerance "wrong" reeks of moral absolutism and drips with irony, creating a pungent brew that I, personally, cannot stomach.

Nonsense. We must not legislate any such thing. One should, however, make sure that white/black/yellow/red/whetever-supremacists are aware that if they try to emulate the practices of those who came before them (lynchings, segregation, slavery, genocide, etc.) this will be frowned upon, severely. And some things are plainly wrong enough to warrant intervention by the government; Murder, for instance. Slavery as another.

On all these matters, we strongly agree. [Although I do sometimes think about legalizing slavery, only without discrimination this time.]

But let me ask a question: If any US state wished to ressurect segregation, should they be allowed to? [/i]

My belief is that the government should be colorblind, and I mean that word fairly accurately. One could not be blind and still differentiate enough to segregate.

[Crazy Elf]

That has absolutely nothing to do with cultural hegemony or homogeneity. "Stupid" isn't a cultural property, nor is "ignorant," nor is, "gullible." These aren't symptoms of hegemony, they're symptoms of being easily fooled, and that's a human trait, not some kind of uniquely Western or American trait.

Wrong. The process by which a population can be led to make these judgements on situations are a result of having no real understanding of any culture outside of their own. Ask a Westerner what they think of the treatment of women in Islam, and they're probably going to start thinking about burkas and female circumcision. Such a judgement is not true for the majority of Islamic states, but the perception is in due to these states being so different from Western nations. As such, they're viewed as alien and backward.

When trying to explain to people that as a result of the US invasion of Iraq, <i>more</i> women are donning the burka and taking up traditional Islamic roles in their society, Westerners see this as the culture taking a step backwards. Religious resurgence in their own country, however, tends not to be looked at in this light. It can, instead, be viewed as the country reinforcing its roots in a world where that stability has been lost. If Arabs do it, they're backwards.

These processes occur in the vast majority of Western people. If they didn't, then the media wouldn't work. Action movies wouldn't work. The military wouldn't work. Many laws wouldn't work. Assumed superiority is how societies work, all of them. Western society is no removed from this process, and due to its power the ignorance tends to have longer reaching influence.

I don't feel reasonably equipped to make sweeping generalizations about hundreds of millions of people, so I won't try to extend my statement to "the majority of the population" of dozens of nations.

Oh really?

Frankly, I think if we're going to talk hegemony and intolerance, we should talk about France, which is, like, eight times worse about it, with half the provocation, as the US.

I have by no means been limiting this process to the US. It's true of all Western societies, and France is certainly one of them. The conversation was really about the US, and therefore it has been the primary example. The process is certainly true of France, as you say. It's also true of the US.

[3278]

There we go, then. Thank you.

[Crazy Elf]

Really, not a problem at all. Thank you for the discussion.

If the process does interest you, one of the foundation texts on the phenomena is <i>Orientalism</i> by Edward Said. Any academic text that discusses cultures outside of the writer's own now has to deal with the criticisms of the theory before continuing. Often, they completely fail to do so. The theory is one of the most solid and well argued academic theories I have ever come across.