[United Nations] Does it serve a useful purpose anymore?

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Serious Paul
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[United Nations] Does it serve a useful purpose anymore?

Post by Serious Paul »

I have been for some time a supporter of the United States of America pulling out of the United Nations, and isolating itself much more so than it has been from the World Community, for a variety of reasons.

So I found something I thought was intresting, from the CATO Institute:
Executive Summary wrote:The United Nations is under increasing attack by critics in the United States and other countries. At the heart of the organization's mounting problems is an almost total lack of accountability, which gives rise to suspicions of wholesale corruption. Existing evidence indicates that corruption and mismanagement go beyond the routine fraud, waste, and abuse of resources that mark all public-sector enterprises.

UN budgets are shrouded in secrecy, and the actual performance of the myriad bureaucracies is translucent, if not opaque. There is no reliable way to determine whether the various and often competing specialized agencies (at least two dozen UN agencies are involved in food and agricultural policy) are doing their jobs, and many UN activities, even if they are of some value, can be carried out better and more efficiently by other groups. Other activities should not be undertaken at all.

Available evidence coupled with the United Nations' unwillingness to undergo a thorough audit raise serious questions about its mission and the means used to carry it out. Secretary General Boutros Boutros-Ghali's rationale that the world body is accountable to all its 185 member-states is meaningless. Such an amorphous standard of accountability is akin to saying no one is responsible.

The United Nations is in dire need of reform, starting with a comprehensive, independent audit. Even if a complete audit were performed, however, there is no guarantee anything would be done about the problems identified. And radical change may not be possible, no matter how obvious the need. Given all the earlier, failed attempts to put things right, even on a limited basis, optimism about meaningful reform may be an exercise in wishful thinking.
Now I admit this is an older piece. But I think the article does raise some valid questions.Coupled with this piece, a snippet I will post:
The U.S. government should
  • withhold all payments to the United Nations until the new secretary-general demonstrates a commitment to reform;
  • demand that the United Nations undergo a comprehensive audit and eliminate all programs and agencies that do not meet stringent criteria in terms of mission, organization, and performance;
  • withhold all payments to the United Nations until such a comprehensive audit has been completed;
  • announce that the United States will unilaterally reduce its contribution to the United Nations by 50 percent once current arrearages are paid in full; and
  • pass legislation that prohibits the participation of U.S. troops in UN military operations
So I want to kick this around a little, but I also want to know a few things from you:
  • Do you think the UN benefits your nation?
  • Do you feel withdrawal by your nation state would hurt/harm it, or the UN?
  • and finally any other thoughts or ideas.
And because I know this will come up, an analysis of who owes (PDF file, sorry.) whom what from CATO, Global Policy, an odd news source called Mike News, a bill introduced into the house-which so far I can't tell if it passed or not;A clip from the UN's web page,another briefing from the UN, and well you get the point.

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Post by lorg »

Serious Paul wrote:Do you think the UN benefits your nation?
Depends on what you mean by benefit. I don't think it hurts us.
Serious Paul wrote:Do you feel withdrawal by your nation state would hurt/harm it, or the UN?
The withdrawal of any member nation would naturally hurt the UN. Some nations perhaps more then others.


So out of curiosity then, what do you propose as a replacement? Nothing?
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Post by MooCow »

pass legislation that prohibits the participation of U.S. troops in UN military operations
Well, I would be against this as a permanent thing. I'm all for refusing to participate until our demands are met, assuming they're good demands. Audits sound nice, but I wonder if we aren't throwing stones from a glass house there.
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Post by ak404 »

I dunno about the isolationist stance, Paul. On one hand, it puts an end to needless meddling in world affairs. On the other hand, it also puts an end to needful meddling in world affairs.

This might just be the coffee speaking, but I have an inkling of an idea about how dependent the US is on the rest of the world, and vice-versa (oil from the Middle East, manufacturing from Southeast Asia, outsourcing for corporations in the Indochina region, corporate partnerships in Japan and Europe, food imports from just about everywhere in the world, arms sales to just about everyone in the world, and so on). Because its business interests are more or less embracing the entire globe, the US cannot afford to be kept out of 'the loop' in world politics if it expects to keep or expand upon its [financial, economic, and military] seat of power.

If one asks why the US has so many issues with the UN, it might help to look into the nature of those arguments, rather than picking sides right off the bat. IIRC, the problems the US and UN have had with each other have gone on far longer thatn...actually, when did they start?

The problem as I see it is that the 'spirit of the age' that the UN was created in does not in any way match up with how we (and by 'we' I mean the entire fucking world) feel about world politics now. For example, when the UN was established, we had just finished one of the biggest, bloodiest, most brutal wars in the history of mankind, one so great that it had created just as many problems as it had ended (much like WW1, which laid the groundwork for WW2), though it'd take years for anyone to figure this out.

However, at that moment, the US was experiencing a backlash against isolationism and heading straightaways into multilateralism - the idea being that the UN could serve as a large democratic body for other countries to discuss ideas. One thing the creators of the UN forgot, however, is that for a democratic body to work, it needs force to back up its laws and resolutions. As it is, the UN has none, and if it had any, then the force they'd need would have to exceed that of the strongest military nation (to ensure that no one country dominates the world scene), but that can't happen either.
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Post by Rev »

The UN benefits my nation (the US).

The US pulling out would harm both us and the UN.

The UN is primarily just a place to talk, especially a place for groups of nations to talk together rather than just one on one. As such it seems to work fairly well. Nations do talk at the UN. They find it easy to find intermediaries there when in conflict with others. Small nations cannot afford to put ambassadors in every country around the world, but through the UN they can have face to face diplomatic contact with almost every nation on earth.

Talking is important. It is vastly cheaper than fighting. The total of UN budgets, including peacekeeping (which is around 2/3 of it), for the past 25 years is under $20 billion. Afghanistan has already cost us more than that. Iraq has already cost more than five times that much. Vietnam $346b. Korea $263b. WWII $2091b. These are only direct budgetary costs, they do not include pensions etc for surviving soldiers, reconstruction, destruction, etc. War is expensive. Aid and diplomacy are cheap in money and cheaper in blood. If any country anywhere in the world has ever not gone to war, or ended a war a little sooner than they would have without the UN it has paid for itself.


There is a quite mad constituency in the US that asserts that doing anything other than blowing people and things up in the world is always a waste while death and destruction are always well worth it. This constituency is quite worshipfull of the US and will always point to the post ww2 era as proof of how great we are, yet that is the era where the UN was created, where the US launched the largest foreign aid program in history to rebuild even its enemies shattered by the war, when many of the major multinational treaties these people despise were created. They say "look this time period proves how great we are, let us do the opposite of what we did then".

I am sure there is lots of waste there. There is lots of waste everywhere. I have read some really brain dead articles from the Cato institute, but I am quite sure whatever fool wrote them is being paid a lot of money by that institute to produce nonsense. Do you really think Micheal Eisner earned $72 million in 2000 after Disney net income fell by half in the previous three years (his salary was 8-9% of the total profits of the corporation that year, during the whole three years he took home more than half a billion)? That to is administrative waste, it just goes all to one overpaid guy rather than thousands. A body run by comittee is probably going to be more wastefull in its administration than most, but the body is so diplomatically efficient that this administrative wast is probably completely washed out. Think of all the extra travel if we did not have a UN ambassador who could walk down the hall and get in contact with another country. I have read about quite a few times in history where the president will get in contact with the UN ambassador to quickly meet with one or several other governments in a way that would have taken days and much money to arrange even collecting up all thier ambassadors to the US around washington DC, or where UN ambassadors from other countries go to the US one.
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Post by ak404 »

Really bad analogy, I think, but let me give it a shot, OK?

The global political stage is sort of like a gaming table, with the UN being the DM, and everyone who wants to play bringing their own dice bags and books. The problem is that the game is a player-driven one, so the best the DM can do is moderate and make sure that everyone plays by the rules. The problem is that the DM is a 95 pound weakling, and well, everyone else...isn't.
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Post by TLM »

Okay, I'm sticking my neck out...

Let me just say, right off the bat, that as I am not a US citizen, my perspective is certainly biased. However, that is also true of all you US citizens in here (it's your country, after all), like it or not.

The UN is the one international body that is videly recognized as fair and impartial (for all of the current US administrations claims to the opposite), and as such it enjoys a certain level of respect, certainly here in Norway, and also in Europe, Africa and Asia. To point to an immediate example: Most of the Anti-War demonstrations in Europe and elsewhere regarding the Iraq conflict, were in fact demonstrations against war without UN sanction. This is an important point. The US "Coalition of the Willing" has far less legitimacy in the eyes of the world than a UN backed coalition would have had. The fact that Iraqi Shiite Ayatullah Al-Sistani is willing to negotiate with a UN ambassador but not with a US negotiator should also be an indication of this.

The UN has its faults, as every bureucratic institution has, but it enjoys widespread respect and legitimacy as a fair and impartial body (wether it is fair and impartial or not). I would not want to see Norway withdraw from the UN, nor would I like to see the US withdraw, either. There is, in my view, at least, far more to gain by being a member of the UN than by standing outside of the loop, and above posters have provided ample reasons for this view. The UN serves a purpose, if nothing else than as a world wide forum for political debate and decision making, however flawed. This is not something I feel one should give up lightly.

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Post by MissTeja »

Paul, I haven't delved into this, myself, enough to form an opinion either way yet, but you asked for some benefits and good that the UN produces so I've listed a few:

The United Nations provides different programs that aid people, such as the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF), International Labour Organization (ILO), Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), International Criminal Tribunals for countries like Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, the United Nations International Research and Training Institute for the Advancement of Women, and United Nations Institute for Training and Research (UNITAR)...to name a few

This site is a nice little summation of what the United Nations does for peacekeeping efforts, human rights, economic and social development, etc. Hope that helps.
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Post by Serious Paul »

I am not ignoring any ones posts, I am just biding my time for the moment, thinking, and giving people time to reply.
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Post by Buzzed »

I think the UN is right where it should be.

It's about allowing countries to bring serious isssues to a spot where they know all other nations will hear those issues. Ideas from various countries are then presented and dissected to see if the idea can be improved on.

When an idea is finally approved on, countries can contribute to help the cause, stay out of it, or even protest it.

Giving the UN an ultimate power authority would go against it's purpose. The UN is supposed to be a way for nations to help eachother, not a way to conform all nations under the control of one authority.

Communication is what the UN does best. It certainly does serve an important purpose.
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Re: [United Nations] Does it serve a useful purpose anymore?

Post by Salvation122 »

Serious Paul wrote:
  • Do you think the UN benefits your nation?
  • Do you feel withdrawal by your nation state would hurt/harm it, or the UN?
  • and finally any other thoughts or ideas.
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Other thoughts: I would suggest that the UN maintain its role as a diplomatic forum and its humanitarian efforts and remove its regulatory functions. That is, it is no longer able to pass rules governing the actions of nation-states. The Children's Bill of Rights (or whatever its proper name is), for example, would not be a UN resolution; it would be a treaty in the same manner as the Geneva Convention, each nation agreeing to sign and abide by it or not. This also means that the UN would be unable to condemn and take action against a nation whose practices it dislikes; such action would have to be taken by individual member states.

This preserves the stuff it does well, I think, and cuts out a lot of the corruption by removing the apparatus through which it functions.
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Post by JongWK »

Yes, I support the UN. However, I would like to see...

...better accountability. I've heard the food for oil program was a disaster..

... the Security Council's Veto power removed or changed. The UN can't handle the hot issues because of five countries.

...all member countries to pay their bill. The US didn't pay for a looong (thank you, Senator Helms), crippling many of its operations.

...a small multinational UN task force that could be deployed within 48 hours anywhere in the world. Tragedies like Rwanda and Sudan could have been prevented by a peackeeping force.
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Post by Anguirel »

Post Topic wrote:[United Nations] Does it serve a useful purpose anymore?
The verdict is in... No.
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Post by Van Der Litreb »

Anguirel wrote:
Post Topic wrote:[United Nations] Does it serve a useful purpose anymore?
The verdict is in... No.
Uh, you don't find that somewhat useful?


Probably my biggest grief with the UN is the fact that so many of the representatives do not truly represent their nation's population. This gets even worse when dealing with powerful countries like China whose leaders are not democratically elected, but get a permanent seat and veto power on the Security Council.
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Post by lorg »

The usefullness of such a treaty is somewhat hollow and pointless, nobody wants nuclear terrorism but terrorist groups per say are not bound by the treaty for obvious reasons. So it is more like some kind of goal or mission statement that 'we don't want nuclear terrorism'. Not to mention that if we/they can't even agree on what terrorism actually is this all seems somewhat hollow.
The treaty makes it a crime for any person to possess radioactive material or a radioactive device with the intent to cause death or injury, or damage property or the environment. It would also be a crime to damage a nuclear facility.
Silly me already thought that was kind of illegal. But reading that text it would make it ok I guess for me to own a low yield nuke as long as I don't threaten to use it.
Threatening to use radioactive material or devices — or unlawfully demanding nuclear material or other radioactive substances would also be a crime. Accomplices and organizers would also be covered by the convention.
All these things already sound somewhat criminal to me.
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Post by Serious Paul »

lorg wrote:Depends on what you mean by benefit. I don't think it hurts us.
Since I forgot all about this, I am now suddenly wondering if you're opinion is the same? Is it good enough to just be "not harmful"?
So out of curiosity then, what do you propose as a replacement? Nothing?
If I had my choice I would replace the UN with the UN, but better. I would revise it's powers, fucntions and purpose. If that wasn't possible, I would argue for withdrawal. I'll see if I can find the thread that has my views on what their powers should be...
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Post by 3278 »

lorg wrote:
The treaty makes it a crime for any person to possess radioactive material or a radioactive device with the intent to cause death or injury, or damage property or the environment. It would also be a crime to damage a nuclear facility.
Silly me already thought that was kind of illegal. But reading that text it would make it ok I guess for me to own a low yield nuke as long as I don't threaten to use it.
I think it should be. I think you should be free to possess whatever you choose, unless you endanger others with it.
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Post by Szechuan »

3278 wrote:
lorg wrote:
The treaty makes it a crime for any person to possess radioactive material or a radioactive device with the intent to cause death or injury, or damage property or the environment. It would also be a crime to damage a nuclear facility.
Silly me already thought that was kind of illegal. But reading that text it would make it ok I guess for me to own a low yield nuke as long as I don't threaten to use it.
I think it should be. I think you should be free to possess whatever you choose, unless you endanger others with it.
Is this part of your perception of how a government should work, or have your personal beliefs shifted away from 'people are worthless' ? [Pardon me for oversimplifying, it's been a long while since I've read those discussions]
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Post by 3278 »

Szechuan wrote:Is this part of your perception of how a government should work, or have your personal beliefs shifted away from 'people are worthless' ? [Pardon me for oversimplifying, it's been a long while since I've read those discussions]
I think it's a combination of the two. I don't trust people to do the right thing, but I don't believe government should have the right to step in until there's clear and present danger of them doing the wrong thing.

This is an idealistic viewpoint. Certainly, it's practically unworkable to allow private individuals to own and build nuclear or radioactive devices. As often is the case, the reality of the human condition conflicts with the idealism of my view of how governments should operate.
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Post by lorg »

Serious Paul wrote:
lorg wrote:Depends on what you mean by benefit. I don't think it hurts us.
Since I forgot all about this, I am now suddenly wondering if you're opinion is the same? Is it good enough to just be "not harmful"?
I don't think my opion on the UN has really changed much. I don't think this treaty hurts us in anyway, it is most likely utterly pointless but it doesn't exactlly hurt anyone. Naturally nor does we actually gain any kind of security from it.

Don't get me wrong, I have previously wanted and still do want some kind of UN reform. But even the current "lame" version is better then nothing even if it is just a debate forum (I think it is a bit more then that btw).

So out of curiosity then, what do you propose as a replacement? Nothing?
If I had my choice I would replace the UN with the UN, but better. I would revise it's powers, fucntions and purpose. If that wasn't possible, I would argue for withdrawal. I'll see if I can find the thread that has my views on what their powers should be...
I'm all for a new and improved UN. Please do dig up your new and improved ideas and we can toss 'em around a bit.
3278 wrote:I think it should be. I think you should be free to possess whatever you choose, unless you endanger others with it.
I guess we just have to not agree on that point then. In the case I stated I mentioned some form of low yield nuke (any yield for that matter) and I don't really see a need for anyone to possess one. What would you do with one? I would argue that a private citizen just possessing one would endanger us all (us all in this context is probably you and your neighbourhood and so on depending on its size) hench not be legal property.
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Post by Anguirel »

Van Der Litreb wrote:
Anguirel wrote:
Post Topic wrote:[United Nations] Does it serve a useful purpose anymore?
The verdict is in... No.
Uh, you don't find that somewhat useful?
No, I don't. In particular, "unlawfully demanding" is already unlawful... so we're just doubling the crime value, I guess. Not useful. Damage to property, nuclear facility or not, also already criminal. Not useful. Possessing nuclear material with the intent to harm is unenforceable as proving intent is ridiculously difficult -- and intent to harm is already criminal, regardless of the implement that will be used. Intent to harm with a rusty spoon is criminal in most places. If it isn't, it should be and would cover this entirely. In short, the resolution is a giant pile of not useful. If anything covered by this resolution is not currently covered by internal laws of member nations, perhaps it's slightly useful in forcing those member nations to adapt, assuming they bother. Of course, we all know the terrosrists are only pursuing legal courses of action. "Oh, wait, <terrorist name>, we can't use your nuclear bomb to blow up the <terrorist objective>, the UN said that was a bad thing..." :cute
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Post by Serious Paul »

lorg wrote:I don't think my opion on the UN has really changed much. I don't think this treaty hurts us in anyway, it is most likely utterly pointless but it doesn't exactlly hurt anyone. Naturally nor do we actually gain any kind of security from it.
It bafflles me that you can just accept that status quo. I guess a beaten woman really can't lock up her husband...
Don't get me wrong, I have previously wanted and still do want some kind of UN reform. But even the current "lame" version is better then nothing even if it is just a debate forum (I think it is a bit more then that btw).
Why? And how do we know that is true anymore? What once was is not necassarily so.

I'm all for a new and improved UN. Please do dig up your new and improved ideas and we can toss 'em around a bit.
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Post by MissTeja »

Heck yes I think the United Nations is important still. Of course, I'm not familiar with much of their operations beyond UNHCR and UNICEF, but both of those division are much needed. It really matters whether you're more loyal to your nation or to the global community. I'm a human rights activist. Therefore, the UN, along with Interpol, Europol, the ICC and all of the other large organizations are important. I hate World Bank with a dire passion, but that's another story. I think a global financial institution could work - just not functioning the way the WB and IMF currently do.

I think the United States is locking it's own handcuffs by considering back out, or by not playing a part in the ICC. As we become more and more a globalized community, the US is passing up it's opportunities for having a strong global voice in the future in order to avoid potential reprecussions today. A Native American proverb says that we did not inherent the Earth from our ancestors, but that we're borrowing it from our children. It's absolutely true, and I think it's applicable to our political system, society, laws and everything else. We're making our grandchildren's national government the odd one out because we don't want to be held globally accountable. This is my (American-)liberal side ranting, so ... yeah. You wanted op's. That's mine.
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Post by FlakJacket »

MissTeja wrote:I hate World Bank with a dire passion, but that's another story. I think a global financial institution could work - just not functioning the way the WB and IMF currently do.
Well this sounds interesting. After Paul Wolfowitz just got the top job, I've been trying to read up on the IMF/World Bank stuff. What do you dislike so about the Bank in its current incarnation? Figure this might be worth a thread of its own if its got legs.
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Post by MissTeja »

Let me get through finals week, Flak,and I'll make a substantive post about it. That, or I can upload and link to my term paper from White Collar Crime this semester that basically should have been named "Why The World Bank is Evil." I'll probably start a thread though, to do discussion. Yeah. Sorry for babble. Finals week. No sleep. Yeah.
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Post by lorg »

Serious Paul wrote:It bafflles me that you can just accept that status quo. I guess a beaten woman really can't lock up her husband...
Who said I accepted the status quo? I said I wanted the UN to change. How that can be interpreted as maintaining the status quo is beyond me.
I'm all for a new and improved UN. Please do dig up your new and improved ideas and we can toss 'em around a bit.
Sure.
So? Did you find any? Lets just start with a few hot issues like those regarding the security council. Members? Permanent? Veto power? Should there be a standing "blue army"? Who should pay for what? Should the UN be granted any "global" powers?
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