Pictoors

[3278]

So, if we agree we wouldn't want some 40-year-old skeeze watching either of us undress; we agree that it's crappy and rude of him to do so; you acknowledge that your vantage on the situation is different from Kitt's, and so you didn't say anything like "It's not okay for Kitt to be upset by this," then what exactly are you arguing with me for?

Because I disagree with other things you said, of course. I disagreed that Paul had said Kitt was "leading on" the Skeeze. I disagreed that Paul had said Kitt had no right to say she doesn't like attention from other men. I disagreed that it was "fucked up" for a 40-year-old man to want to watch a woman he'll never see in any state of undress otherwise. And so on.

Was it just my phrasing you didn't like?

No. Many of your statements were specifically untrue, and others were simply disagreeable. It has nothing to do with how you said what you said, but rather that it was inaccurate.

Was there some major point I've missed that merited you starting an argument with me?

I started an argument because I felt you were incorrect, just as I do with anyone else on any other subject, just as I always have. I didn't do it to defend Paul, who is obviously quite capable of defending himself. I didn't do it to victimize or anger you. I did it because your statements were inaccurate.

Or did you just want to banter with me enough so you could turn around and agree with me, then tell me what a bitch I am for thinking you're arguing with me?

Those things didn't happen.

I'd turn your "I wish I knew what your deal was" around on you (see, I can be clever too!), but honestly, I don't care.

Aww. That's sweet. Ironically, I'll almost certainly be the one perceived as unfriendly in this exchange, because you're sweet and motherly and I'm a son of a bitch.

[3278]

Well, this escalated quickly.

I'm an accelerant.

You know what's odd? The only times I've seen you say anything like that is when it's Thorn and I arguing. I don't think that's bad, it's just somewhat strange. The last time, we'd only gone back and forth perhaps two or three times...then again, that's true this time, as well. Interesting, anyway.

[Serious Paul]

I was going to make this post where I answered some of the accusations Thorn so nonchalantly makes, but thenIrealized I just don't care. I don't really like or care about Thorn, so fuck her. Ghost recon calls!

[Salvation122]

Well, this escalated quickly.

You know what's odd? The only times I've seen you say anything like that is when it's Thorn and I arguing.

You and Deev, too, but that doesn't happen so much anymore.

[3278]

Mmm, mmm. That's true. Interesting.

[WillyGilligan]

For the sexual ickiness discussion, I just want to throw in that we've (a unit of people deemed adult enough to join the armed services) been subjected to mandatory briefings on such intricate social delicasies as "no means no", "even if the girl has had sex with everyone else in your dorm (yeah, my bro the Marine hates Air Force jargon), it doesn't mean that you get a turn", and "passed out in a drunken stupor means no, not yes." While I felt a little offended that I had to re-learn stuff I've known since I was about fifteen, it seems like more and more people really need to be taught it as often as possible. At the least, you shouldn't actively watch other people change because it's rude; at worst you shouldn't do it because it's a warning sign of a potential sexual assault. So, dude needs education, possibly with a clue by four.

For the group dynamic (Thorn and 32), Sal brings up the escalation early on because it does seem to happen very quickly between some people. We don't do it when Cain/32 debates start because pointing it out would be redundant. But 32/DV8 or 32/Thorn really seems to happen out of nowhere. Conversation's flowing, everything's good, then it gets awkward.

It's also strange, at least for me. I've read interesting things from all three of you, I tend to like you all as far as I know you, and you really don't get along anymore (I don't remember when it started happening) because of personal baggage. I know you're not the only one this happens to, but the only other person I can think of right now is me for a while with Crazy Elf. I enjoyed ranting at him so I looked for posts to pick apart. It was fun for me and he never really seemed to get his feelings hurt. Since I'm not involved with any of these, I don't understand.

(My brain is forcing me to do this, if you don't like armchair psychoanalysis-and who does?- just stop here.)

Paul wasn't clear with his posts. He put up definitions and a smiley or two. I have to admit, it did look like he was blaming Kitt somehow. I know Paul's sarcastic, but he knows by now how well that translates on a screen and should compensate. Other than the fact that I thought that Thorn expatriated with Caz, I could have predicted that she would get upset. She's extremely intolerant of anything that smacks of "she had it coming". Honestly, though at times she can approach strident, she's pretty calm and reasonable from what I've seen. Not all men are pigs, but no woman 'deserves' to be sexually assaulted (men aren't usually the victim in these discussions, so it doesn't come up). I can agree with that, assuming that I actually understand her positions. She is quick to attach evil motives to Paul, but having a crude and dark sense of humour opens you up to that.

More later, assuming interest.

[Szechuan]

At any rate, now that we've all let out our hostility and anger, I say it's time to light some marshmallows on fire, make some high-calorie chocolate snacks, and try not to kill ourselves while I go choreograph my own college audition dance. Christ on crutches, what have I gotten myself into?

Marry me.

[Brineshrimp]

I'm waiting for the April Fools.

[Kitt]

I'm waiting for the April Fools.

One of them just asked me to marry him.

[FlakJacket]

Open your eyes man! Oh wait, asian.

*Hands Brine a pair of matchsticks to help him*

[Szechuan]

I'm waiting for the April Fools.

One of them just asked me to marry him.

Marry Me x 2!

[Anguirel]

Watching people change is a regular thing in stage shows... However, having the little girls notice is a bit skeevy. At least he isn't watching them change, I suppose.

Any chance of getting actual changing rooms? I mean, I've been in shows which required just-off-stage quick changes, and you better believe everyone who could watched (and was highly amused by) the poor girl forced to dump one complete costume for another in the space of about 15 seconds. But in general, when people had time they changed in other rooms backstage somewhere, usually designated by sex. And when they weren't so designated, people not changing would stay out as a matter of common courtesy.

[Crazy Elf]

How about you just say, "Dude, fuck off or I'll cut your dick off with a switchblade."

Get a group of large guys together and confront him about it.

Pull a gun.

Throw a brick at his head.

Complain to the director.

Tell him that if he's caught doing it again, you'll press charges.

If you really want to stop it, then stop it. No sense in complaining to a bunch of people online about it.

[Kitt]

Ang: Its one giant communal changing room. My changes are not rushed. He's just a skeeve.

CE: I've told him to fuck off. The little girls have yelled at him. I don't own a gun or a brick. The director couldn't care less, and I may have to threaten with charges.

And In Other News: there will be more pictures added soon. And I kissed the cheetah girl after we went out for some snacks at the diner. As in, we put on The Sound of Music (since the Pope had just died, or so we heard on the radio) and played tonsil hockey for a little while. Mainly because one of the gay guys accused us of being lesbians, and we decided to show him that we...
Hmm. The point of that was to show him that we weren't lesbians. I guess that really didn't work out too well, huh?

[3278]

Oh, for Christ's sake.

[Salvation122]

Oh, for Christ's sake.

Agreed.

[WillyGilligan]

Oh, for Christ's sake.

Agreed.

If that was about me, I'm sorry. I got rushed at the last minute and posted it without reflection. I won't edit it, cuz I don't do that, but I'm officially butted out.

Kitt: You know you're not helping your situation when you do stuff like that, right?

[Kitt]

That happened pretty close to 3 hours after the show, when he was long gone, and the only people around were one of the really cool women, one of the gay men, and one of the techies. The skeevy one was nowhere near that town. I'm not stupid.

[3278]

Oh, for Christ's sake.

Agreed.

If that was about me, I'm sorry. I got rushed at the last minute and posted it without reflection. I won't edit it, cuz I don't do that, but I'm officially butted out.

No, it was definitely about Kitt, not helping her situation. Although I wasn't speaking about her situation at the show, personally.

I thought your post was cogent and well-stated. I agreed most wholeheartedly with nearly everything you said. If I hadn't, you can rest assured I'd have had something better to say than, "Oh, for Christ's sake." You're worth discussion, not just derision.

[Kitt]

...
No, it was definitely about Kitt, not helping her situation. Although I wasn't speaking about her situation at the show, personally...

Ok then, what were you speaking about? Really, I'm intruiged now.

[Crazy Elf]

I like spelling out this sort of thing.

You said, "No no no! I don't lead anyone on! I don't tease people I'm all good and shit. Woe is me who is being watched by males I don't want to watch me!"

Then you go:

As in, we put on The Sound of Music (since the Pope had just died, or so we heard on the radio) and played tonsil hockey for a little while. Mainly because one of the gay guys accused us of being lesbians, and we decided to show him that we...
Hmm. The point of that was to show him that we weren't lesbians. I guess that really didn't work out too well, huh?

That's all well and good. You can do whatever the hell you want, but by doing things like that, which will spin around like flames in a trade tower (certainly in small theatre groups), you're not really giving yourself too much room to complain.

Your original complaint stands as such:

"I get watched by some creepy old guy when I'm getting changed."

Now it stands as:

"I kiss other girls for attention and generally play with the male hormonal drives and then complain when some of them overtly react to it."

Start fires and things get hot. Then you get burnt. Don't like that idea? Then stop lighting matches.

[WillyGilligan]

which will spin around like flames in a trade tower (certainly in small theatre groups),

I think this deserves just a touch more spelling. The guy wasn't there, but it will get back to him, which will give him more images for his personal spank bank, which will cause him to sexualize his mental image of you even more, causing him to want to watch you change in the house that Jack built....

His lack of control is his problem, but you have to be aware of how your actions impact the guys around you. Flirting is fun, but it's dangerous (and how much fun would it be if it wasn't?).

[Kitt]

Your original complaint stands as such:

"I get watched by some creepy old guy when I'm getting changed."

Now it stands as:

"I kiss other girls for attention and generally play with the male hormonal drives and then complain when some of them overtly react to it."

Three people saw it. All of those three people despise the man just as much, if not more than I do. Those three people also wouldn't say anything without asking us first, because they know what it's like. If I didn't think I could trust them fully, I wouldn't have done it.

...which will cause him to sexualize his mental image of you even more, causing him to want to watch you change...

My costume sexualizes his mental image of me more than just hearing something about me kissing a girl. Trust me. As does the people who randomly grope me just for the fun of it and because they know I'm not allowed to beat them to death with the shovel that's in the room because it's not my prop and I'm one of those people who believes that if it's not your prop, you shouldn't touch it without express permission of the owner of said prop. And as the shovel is for another show, I can't get that permission.

As of tonight, exactly 5 people know of the car incident. The 2 of us involved, and the 3 witnesses. If anyone else knew of it, everyone else would know of it, and I would know of everyone else knowing of it. Trust me, that much is safe.

[Crazy Elf]

Yeah, because nothing could ever slip out into the open by... I don't know... posting it online.

[Salvation122]

Three people saw it. All of those three people despise the man just as much, if not more than I do. Those three people also wouldn't say anything without asking us first, because they know what it's like. If I didn't think I could trust them fully, I wouldn't have done it.

You are amazingly naive.

[Serious Paul]

Or a good actress.

Say where's Thorn to yell at us and call us jack asses for picking on her? I haven't been called a dick in like a day, I'm missing it.

[Lord Death Hand]

Serious Paul is a dick. I hope that brightens your day.

[Angel]

If you really want to stop it, then stop it. No sense in complaining to a bunch of people online about it.

Wisdom of the Elf! Kitt, you either accept what is happening or you don’t, and if you don’t then confront the person in charge of the whole thing and tell them about it clearly, if they act all “oh well, quit griping about it little girl.” Then quit the show and walk out there and then.

Mainly because one of the gay guys accused us of being lesbians, and we decided to show him that we...
Hmm. The point of that was to show him that we weren't lesbians. I guess that really didn't work out too well, huh?

Girls kissing each other to make guys think they’re not lesbians, if you did it to tease or play with whomever was watching (or hears about it) then don’t get upset when the hormonally driven get worked up.

Oh, for Christ's sake.

Agreed.

Agreed.

My costume sexualizes his mental image of me more than just hearing something about me kissing a girl. Trust me. As does the people who randomly grope me just for the fun of it and because they know I'm not allowed to beat them to death with the shovel that's in the room because it's not my prop and I'm one of those people who believes that if it's not your prop, you shouldn't touch it without express permission of the owner of said prop. And as the shovel is for another show, I can't get that permission.

It sounds to me like there might be more than just one thing wrong with you being involved with this theater company, from the costumes to the groping, and…?

Just get out of it if it’s bothering you so much. If the groping really is a problem for you then file charges with the local police department and in the next breath quit.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too, if there’s unwanted sexual harassment going on why are you still there?

I haven't been called a dick in like a day, I'm missing it.

Paul’s a Dick!

Serious Paul is a dick. I hope that brightens your day.

DAMN YOU!!!!

[Angel]

Burp, double post!

[Kitt]

Angel: I've been told that 'he's harmless' and to 'stop worrying so much.' I wouldn't quit the show halfway through the run. That would not only be rude, but it would fuck my chances of ever being in a show there again, and for the most part, I like working there.
The kissing was a short-lived fun thing that (as I've said) was seen by 3 people. No more was ever mentioned of it.
The groping is by my friends who do it jokingly. It doesn't bother me much. I just say that I'm going to beat them to death because that's what I do. That's how I joke around with my friends. They know and accept this, and it's all in good fun.
The only thing about this show (other than the fact that the costumer seems to think I weigh 20 pounds less than I do) that actually bothers me is that one guy. And the run of the show is over, so I don't have to worry about it for a while now. As in, until May. Which is long enough for me to get it through this guys' thick skull that I want his eyes nowhere near my personage, whether changing or not, unless the director asks for it. After a brief conversation today, I think he has that hint. If you care to hear it, continue to read, otherwise skip the next block of text.

Me: [unaware that Skeevy Mike is behind her] Casey, after Chasing the Whos, can you help me with a quick change?
Casey: [equally unaware] Sure. It's that dress, right? [points]
Me: Yeah. I just need to change it real quick so I can get on stage on time tonight. Last night I almost missed my entrance.
Mike: [having been listening] Hey, it's ok, if you can't get dressed, I'll block you.
Me: [turning, angry and grossed out] If I ever needed to do that, I'd fucking kill myself. Thanks. Don't come near me.
Mike: [confused] It was just a...
Casey: [to Erin, ignoring Mike] Oh my God, I can't believe you just said that!
Me: I dropped the 'F bomb' in front of Rosie again, didn't I?
And so on and so forth. Coincidentally, Mike stayed relatively clear of me for the rest of the night. It didn't make a huge difference, but enough that he at least stopped talking to me, thank God. As long as I don't have to remind him during the next show, I should be done with that drama.

At any rate, Seussical is over and within the next week, there will be a new photobucket account with all of the show pictures, both mine and others. Anyone who wants to see them, keep your eyes peeled for an update.

[Edit]

I haven't been called a dick in like a day, I'm missing it.

The fact that you were stating your personal opinion and that I don't particularly like it doesn't make you a dick. If you were calling me a dumb bitch who likes to prance around in her underwear and then whine when people are caught staring, then you'd be a dick. But you're not. Implying it, perhaps, but not outright saying it. I know what the situation is, and I also know that no account I make of it can be quite accurate enough. So you think what you will, and I won't stop you. I can't stop you, nor do I intend to try. Either way, everyone's entitled to their own opinions and thoughts, and even if yours conflict with mine, that doesn't make you a dick.

[Brineshrimp]

Serious Paul, you're a...oh, it's been said.

Although, the last time you posted, SP, you said you didn't feel like responding to Thorn, because (and pardon me for I'm "quoting" by memory) "I don't like her and don't care about what she says anyway." So, why the post now?

I know sarcasm and whatnot, but it was a pretty pointless comment as far as the discussion has progressed. (Unless your only point was to try and egg Thorn on, in which case, we have yet to see if it worked.)

Just curious.

In any case, I agree with Kitt in so far as to say we're entitled to our opinions. Hell, if we weren't we would've lynched the Elf long ago. (Love ya, CE.)

[Crazy Elf]

You would have tried.

[Serious Paul]

I was indeed egging her on Brine.

Kitt more than anything I am saying that I've seen this whole game before, and that's what this is-a game. I am not berating your intelligence, or your looks, or your skill at acting-this thread, and in fact your whole persona at bulldrek reinforces that you, like many of us here, are a good actor. I fact the only thing I'd berate is those damn run on paragraphs!

You are however a teenage girl. You're not the first one to do just exactly this, nor will you be the last. I will make fun of your behavior, in a semiserious way, just I did them, and will others.

I don't think any woman has "it coming", whatever "it" is-I do find it laughable that anyone would be mystified at his behavior just based on your decriptions alone. He obviously is inept socially, otherwise he'd have figured out the same thing and ignored you, and the rest of your friends like you had the plague. (Which in a way teenage girls are, really. )

[MissTeja]

I've never understood how people can't understand that fishing for compliments really makes you far less attractive and respectable than otherwise. This whole thread baffles me. Am I alone here?

[Serious Paul]

No.

[3278]

Definitely not.

[UncleJoseph]

Me three...

[Szechuan]

Now four, knock on the door?

[MissTeja]

Ah, okay. Carry on then.

[Thorn]

I was indeed egging her on Brine.

Jesus, Paul, just pull my pigtails like a real man, will you?

[Serious Paul]

I don't know if I can lift that much.

[Eva]

JESUS this thread was good.

[Bishop]

Well that was some interesting reading, thanks guys.

[Cash]

JESUS this thread was good.

This is new...usually it's Cain and 32.

[Eva]

And everyone's being their sharp selves without being tedious. Good, juicy read.

[Szechuan]

Does anyone remember that other thread where Kitt was complaining about smokers? You know, how she had to walk through their evil cloud to get out of the hospital doors, but wouldn't take steps to have them move? You know, where she complained about it on here, instead of taking responsibility for her own life?

Anyone remember?

[Instant Cash]

I am just here for the man on man/woman on woman/mass orgy action.

Please continue.

[WillyGilligan]

To be fair, without actually seeing the situation it's sort of hard to say which options are available and which are realistically available. She says that she wants to keep doing shows, so she's putting up with a certain amount of abuse. It's one thing to say "blow the whistle", it's another thing to face standing there with all the attention that the whistle brings.

[Instant Cash]

And more to Kitt's point, if he wants to watch and you don't like it tell him up front to fuck off and stop staring.

If you don not confront him he will keep doing it.

However if you get a certain thrill out of it (Some people do) then by all means, keep on.

Or if you are like me, you do not care and carry the philospophy "If you look at me while I am naked, don't complain about what you see"

[Anguirel]

Or if you are like me, you do not care and carry the philospophy "If you look at me while I am naked, don't complain about what you see"

Which wouldn't be such a bad philosophy if IC ever wore clothes...