[PFZ]Perspectives on Iraq

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:13 pm

I'm declaring this thread Politics Free Zone. This is not about Republicans. This is not about Democrats. This is about how we look at Iraq through eyes of media or words or news or...whatever. I have a hunch that we don't understand Iraq at all.

I'm curious...Ever notice that we keep getting perspectives on Iraq? How we keep getting ancedotes on Iraq? How we keep getting snippets from media?

Notice how those people who talk are usually military people? Usually experts on the area of Iraq? (Notice that expert, the word could mean anything. Like military expert. Maybe not a "cultural-expert"?

Ever notice anyone from academia (like universities, highly educated people from Iraq that studied Middle East for years by immersing oneself into it?) Ever notice anyone who explains in clarity about the cultures that appears in Iraq? Ever notice anyone who really understands the possible consequences of actions in Iraq?

Just curious. I would like you to think about it for a while, and post your conclusions.

crone · Post by **crone** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:50 am

There is Juan Cole. He does media appearances sometimes.
Abbas Kadhim has a site as well.

I think even the experts don't know as much as they think they do. Things like 'culture' are very complex, and everyone's view is greatly influenced by their own beliefs and experiences. Cultural 'facts' and predictions just don't have the same level of validity as mathematical ones. They are too complex and uncertain for media sound-bites.

I am sure that the American government has cultural advisors, even if they don't make the headlines.

Edit: If you want another version of Middle East culture than you'll get from Juan Cole, look for stuff by Daniel Pipes. There is another guy, too, whose name I will post when it comes back to me.

Buzzed · Post by **Buzzed** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:25 am

The picture of Iraq that has been painted in my mind, taking into account my exposure to the various medias:

A strong swift assault into Iraq, climaxing at the Shock and Awe bombings in Baghdad. When a good chunk of Baghdad is liberated (just using terms here), citizens of the city cheer and celebrate in the streets. Then starting the following day a mass looting triggers, fueled by people blowing off steam and feeling rebellious. Citizens stop celebrating, taking defensive action to protect themselves as violence and crime escalates due to lack of a government, while troops watch not knowing what to do about it, but decide to focus on the remaining enemy forces. The months go by with crime rates decreasing slowly as a new Iraq government is set up under an ever increasingly productive, but rough police force operated by the troops, the enemy's attacks have lessened to a level of garilla warfare averaging one attack each day. Months go by, the monotomy interrupted by news of Saddam's caputure, but basically the same stuff.

Now we have an Iraqi govenment set up that is still trying hard to create their own security forces, while foriegn troops continue to serve as the police and dealing with insurgents.

My interpritation of the opinion of the people of iraq: Mixed. Some hate the U.S. being there, some don't.

FlameBlade · Post by **FlameBlade** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:29 am

crone wrote:There is Juan Cole. He does media appearances sometimes.
Abbas Kadhim has a site as well.

I think even the experts don't know as much as they think they do. Things like 'culture' are very complex, and everyone's view is greatly influenced by their own beliefs and experiences. Cultural 'facts' and predictions just don't have the same level of validity as mathematical ones. They are too complex and uncertain for media sound-bites.

I am sure that the American government has cultural advisors, even if they don't make the headlines.

Edit: If you want another version of Middle East culture than you'll get from Juan Cole, look for stuff by Daniel Pipes. There is another guy, too, whose name I will post when it comes back to me.

Funny that you mention this, because. ... interview

Buzzed: Completely understandable. In a way, I'm more curious as to what Iraqis are saying. What educated Iraqis are saying, and what everyone are saying, and hopefully, gain better understandings of culture.

crone · Post by **crone** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:54 am

Here are some Iraqi voices:
Riverbend hasn't posted in a while.
Three brothers in Baghdad take it in turns to post. They also have a list of links to other Iraqi blogs.
Articles about life in Baghdad
Another family effort. I don't read this site; it crashes my browser. I read the others, plus most of the ones the brothers link to.

There are a bunch of soldiers (in Iraq) blogs I read too. Let me know if you want them.

Juan Cole is cool, but he has strong opinions that affect what he writes. Nothing wrong with that, but be aware of it.

Cain · Post by **Cain** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:03 am

IMO, Iraq was always going to be a lose-lose situation. Even though Saddam was contained, he was constantly thumbing his nose at us, occasionally making us look very foolish. And he has proved willing to use WMD, which only one other country has-- namely, us.

However, the situation in the Middle East is murky enough without us going in and making things worse. The Isreal conflict has its roots back near the start of recorded history. As Americans-- not as Democrats or Republicans, but as Americans-- we simply cannot fathom that view. Our country is only slightly over two hundred years old, making us the young upstarts who've been lucky to solve most of their problems very quickly. As a culture, we cannot concieve of gleefully nursing a grudge for thousands and thousands of years, or comprehend that the solutions are likely to take about as long.

Serious Paul · Post by **Serious Paul** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:04 am

FlameBlade wrote:This is about how we look at Iraq through eyes of media or words or news or...whatever.

Oh so we're putting a sticker price on this? Sweet, I wonder how much money CNN and FOX News bring in from Iraq related broadcasting. I should get a degree in journalism-its one of the fastest growth industries of its type.

I have a hunch that we don't understand Iraq at all.

Or maybe we all just fail to see that we all understand it differently?

I'm curious...

Hey, how you doin'?

Ever notice that we keep getting perspectives on Iraq? How we keep getting ancedotes on Iraq? How we keep getting snippets from media?

Notice how those people who talk are usually military people? Usually experts on the area of Iraq? (Notice that expert, the word could mean anything. Like military expert. Maybe not a "cultural-expert"?

Nothing precludes a Military (wo)man from being intelligent and well educated with a degree in the field they are speaking of. Despite the general image of the Military being fairly monotone, and drab for academia they are a number of well educated, well spoken and enlightned individuals in various parts of our Military apparatus. (In this respect they are a lot like the rest of the world-some are smarter than others.)

Ever notice anyone from academia (like universities, highly educated people from Iraq that studied Middle East for years by immersing oneself into it?) Ever notice anyone who explains in clarity about the cultures that appears in Iraq? Ever notice anyone who really understands the possible consequences of actions in Iraq?

Maybe you aren't watching the right news? I'd say listen-but I'd have to apologize. I listen to NPR quite often onmy radio while driving and I have heard at least two or three people who were introduced as Iraqi Professors, Law Makers or just Joe "Average Iraqi" making comments.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:13 am

Buzzed wrote:citizens of the city cheer and celebrate in the streets

Just as an aside; according to a Tegenlicht documentary I saw on Al Jazeera, the...chief editor, I think?...who is an Iraqi, claimed that those people cheering in the street weren't Iraqis - which is a spurious statement to make - but I also saw from footage that the whole "tearing down Saddam's statue" was done by, maybe fourty people, max. I don't know if that constitutes as "citizens of the city cheer and celebrate in the streets."

WillyGilligan · Post by **WillyGilligan** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:18 am

Technically, if you get two guys who live there to hop up and down and make some happy noises in more than one alleyway, that would constitute "citizens of the city cheer and celebrate in the streets." Just because I'm an ass.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:04 am

True. But I don't think it's worthy of the effect the media has on its constituents.

Anguirel · Post by **Anguirel** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:17 am

Any views I have on the Middle East are heavily influenced by Fareed Zakaria. His columns are great reads, and if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's a very good liar and guesser.

DV8 · Post by **DV8** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:41 pm

I think we need to go to Eye-rack, under whatever pretenses will get us there, blow the shit out of them, torture their prisoners, take their oil, and ri*...wait, you did say "pacifist free zone," right?

[PFZ]Perspectives on Iraq

[PFZ]Perspectives on Iraq

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